Shooter shooting production, gets bumped to open

[Spray_N_Prey]

Ok let's say a shooter was shooting production, had a holster / gun issue that bumped him to open and then once in open, the shooter claims but i'm shooting 9mm MAJOR.

if the match (Level I) was not using a chrono, would you have to allow this?

BTW this didn't happen and is only a hypathetical discussion that a buddy of mine and myself were discussing.

[steel1212]

Ok let's say a shooter was shooting production, had a holster / gun issue that bumped him to open and then once in open, the shooter claims but i'm shooting 9mm MAJOR.

if the match (Level I) was not using a chrono, would you have to allow this?

BTW this didn't happen and is only a hypathetical discussion that a buddy of mine and myself were discussing.

I'm assuming you don't have a chrono to test the theory? If no and he is shooting factory, you know he isn't shooting major. If he is shooting reloads, and you don't have a chrono to prove other wise I'm not sure you can do anything about it other than go with what he is claiming.

Could you use the old school technique for testing power factor. If the MD knows for a fact that his gun is making PF, you could adjust a popper to not fall then adjust it to just barely fall and see if the guys ammo will knock it over

[Spray_N_Prey]

but.... by singling him out ONLY for chrono wouldn't that be a problem also?

I don't think the popper thing would fly.

[BigTinVA]

Some people just game everything to the max....

Edited July 16, 2009 by BigTinVA

[lynn jones]

level one he would still be minor. any where else, he'd have to chrono.

imho,

lynn

[short_round]

Declare major, use hi-cap mags now ... what's the difference?

It's a production gun shooting in open class ... that's punishment enough.

[Mark K]

I think you have to go with his claim, just as you go with the shooter in Limited, or Open that claim major with no way to verify. I will say, if he is shooting 9mm and claiming major, I might question it. Otherwise, you have to take his word for it.

Mark K.

[ima45dv8]

Just about every match I attend has a sign-up sheet. You declare your division and corresponding PF.

If the shooter signed up as Production and did not declare their ammo to Major at that time, the division default states they are shooting Minor. I would not simply take their word they were using Major ammo after a bump to Open. If no chrono was available, they'd be shooting Open Minor.

[Bergie]

For safety reasons you can only shoot 9mm or .38 super major in an "OPEN" gun. There is no such thing as Major 9mm or .38 Super in Single stack, Limited or L10 because of safety issues. Therefore it would also not be safe in a Production gun. He's MINOR.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Bergie

[eerw]

why would he be minor..

there is no rule that says you cannot shoot major 9 in production..

in production..you are only scored minor..it does not say you cannot shoot a 124gr bullet going 1331fps.

there is no PF to declare in production..you are scored minor.

so there is nothing that prevents a shooter from shooting a production legal gun at major PF in open.

[Bergie]

Appendix D2, D3 and D5 #5 "Minimum bullet caliber for Major .40 cal/ 10mm"

It does not say this in Production because there is no major, but it goes without saying.

If you are shooting 9mm in any gun other than a full blown "Open" gun you are "minor" in any division.

[steel1212]

but.... by singling him out ONLY for chrono wouldn't that be a problem also?

I don't think the popper thing would fly.

Why would singling him out be a problem? He is the one making a claim that most are going to question. If you have a chrono available then use it. As far as, "he is shooting a production gun in open is punishment enough", its not my fault he got bumped to open. If he is declaring major and is knowing not shooting major then he is out and out cheating. This is all theoretical of course but it is a good discussion.

[Gary Stevens]

Hey Bergie,

All guns are Open guns, even the lowly revolver

Open is a Division, not a gun.

[Gary Stevens]

Declare major, use hi-cap mags now ... what's the difference?

It's a production gun shooting in open class ... that's punishment enough.

Open Class....

[eerw]

Appendix D2, D3 and D5 #5 "Minimum bullet caliber for Major .40 cal/ 10mm"

It does not say this in Production because there is no major, but it goes without saying.

If you are shooting 9mm in any gun other than a full blown "Open" gun you are "minor" in any division.

OP says shooter is bumped to open division..not limited.

my only point is that a shooter can shoot a production legal 9mm gun in open division and shoot major.

[steel1212]

Appendix D2, D3 and D5 #5 "Minimum bullet caliber for Major .40 cal/ 10mm"

It does not say this in Production because there is no major, but it goes without saying.

If you are shooting 9mm in any gun other than a full blown "Open" gun you are "minor" in any division.

Back to what Eric said though....prove, with out a chrono, that he wasn't shooting major PF 9mm ammo in production. Sure he will get scored minor in production but since he got bumped to open, then he can take advantage of his major PF ammo. Yes I'm playing devils advocate for both sides but I'm just making a point.

[Spray_N_Prey]

Declare major, use hi-cap mags now ... what's the difference?

It's a production gun shooting in open class ... that's punishment enough.

Open Class....

SO...Gary, how would you handle this?

And remember this isn't something that happened, just me and a buddy trying to come up with things that might possibly come up in a match so we are prepared to handle this. So no i'm not trying to GAME EVERYTHING like someone else mentioned, i'm the CRO at our local club and just want to have some things covered that could come up someday.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Spray_N_Prey

[Wakal]

I've shot Limited (minor) with a gun that easily made major under the power factor but not the rules

A STI iron sight 9 by 23 makes a dandy carry gun, too

Hmm...shooting production with a .357 SiG would be minor under the rules but major under an honest assesment of the power factor...

Just a couple of examples of possiblities for (safely) shooting major/minor

Alex

[Pat Miles]

Just about every match I attend has a sign-up sheet. You declare your division and corresponding PF.

If the shooter signed up as Production and did not declare their ammo to Major at that time, the division default states they are shooting Minor. I would not simply take their word they were using Major ammo after a bump to Open. If no chrono was available, they'd be shooting Open Minor.

+1!

If this guy signed up as Production and declared minor power factor then he stays at his declared power factor and is scored accordingly in Open class. He declared the power factor before the match started. I do agree that being moved to Open class is punishment enough for him to have equipment issues that don't comply with the Production rules but he did declare his power factor. This guy would be ragged on forever after trying this at my club. Yes, I realize the scenario is ficticious.

CYa,

Pat

[steel1212]

Just about every match I attend has a sign-up sheet. You declare your division and corresponding PF.

If the shooter signed up as Production and did not declare their ammo to Major at that time, the division default states they are shooting Minor. I would not simply take their word they were using Major ammo after a bump to Open. If no chrono was available, they'd be shooting Open Minor.

+1!

If this guy signed up as Production and declared minor power factor then he stays at his declared power factor and is scored accordingly in Open class. He declared the power factor before the match started. I do agree that being moved to Open class is punishment enough for him to have equipment issues that don't comply with the Production rules but he did declare his power factor. This guy would be ragged on forever after trying this at my club. Yes, I realize the scenario is ficticious.

CYa,

Pat

That is the best reason I've heard so far.

[short_round]

its not my fault he got bumped to open.

It's not the shooter's fault you don't have a chrono.

It's a Level 1 match.

Let it go.

[steel1212]

its not my fault he got bumped to open.

It's not the shooter's fault you don't have a chrono.

It's a Level 1 match.

Let it go.

Your right its not his fault I don't have a chrono....if he declared minor then we have no way of proving other wise then do we. So I guess being its a level one match we just let the cheaters run on by.....

[al503]

If I was shooting production and was shooting open gun loads out of it (for whatever reason) I'd probably declare minor so

1. you don't confuse anyone

2. others don't think you're trying to get major scoring (in production)

3. answer all of the questions from everyone as to why you're shooting major in production

4. take away the possibility of the scorer making a mistake and giving you major pf points on some or all of the stages, and

4. you don't create a head scratcher for anyone looking at the stage and overall results with 'production' 'major' on the same line.

[Bergie]

So Gary

I could use my SS 9mm in Open division and load Major 9?

I didn't know that.

I learned something here...

[kgunz11]

There are ways to prove rather or not the shooter is shooting Major PF yes, but there are also rules that must be followed in getting there. You cannot single one person out, there has to be an official match chronograph, and everyone must shoot through that chronograph. It should (could be must, without my rule book in front of me I'm not sure) be verified as well with a known ammunition. If the person originally signed up as Production Minor, then got bumped into another Division, I could see the person changing their ammo as well. He could declare Minor in the initial sign up sheet because everything in Production is scored as Minor. Doesn't mean he is or is not shooting minor. At a Level I match where there is no official chronograph a competitor can claim minor or major and it cannot be contested. If he gets bumped to Open and his score sheet reflects that I don't see why it cannot reflect he has changed power factor either. The real problem then comes into the scoring. He started out shooting Production with a declared PF of Minor. Those stages would be in the Open Division results now, and if the competitor did not change ammo then he could declare he was shooting Major PF the whole time, only marking his score sheet as Minor because of the Division rules. Without an Official match chronograph, you'd have a hard time challenging him.

I don't know the rule book as good as some others here, that is just my interpretation. It could be totally wrong.

If the competitor can be dishonest about it, become a cheater if he lies, then at a Level I match he has to live with himself. At a Level II or III match an Official Chrono station should be set up and that changes everything, and the chrono could be used to prove or disprove the declared PF. What if the competitor was shooting a Glock 35 in Production Division with .40S&W Major ammo but loaded 1 round too many by accident and got bumped. He would still be bumped to Open, but could at that time declare Major PF could he not? I know the OP inquired about 9mm, but just adding a twist for clarification. The rule should apply no matter what caliber? Don't you agree?