inconsistent (feeling/sounding) loads

[Pittbug]

Here's the load I'm using, thanks to harmon:

3.5gr clays

230gr rn Montana gold

cci primer

mixed headstamp brass

oal: 1.255

Some loads feel a little different than others. Some have more muzzle flip and flexmoney also commented that some sounded different.

The only major variance in the components is the case, since they're all range pickup cases.

The only things I'm aware of that have changed recently in the reloading process are using hornady one shot on the cases prior to loading and installing the needle roller bearing on the shell plate.

The powder and primers are all from the same batch and unfortunately I don't have access to a chrono.

Any ideas on what I can test/look for?

thanks

[ben b.]

Are you applying the One Shot in a manner such that some is/can enter the case, resulting in the occasional damp powder?

Have you thrown 10 charges as one mass and weighed it all together, a few different times, to check for some new variance in the throw weight?

Those are my first guesses.

[The_Vigilante]

Only thing I can think of immediately is your powder measure is giving you inconsistent drops. Have you been actually weighing the charges? Do you notice a big difference using the One Shot on .45 ACP cases when sizing them? Make sure the cases are on their sides and you are spraying from directly above the cases-doesn't take much.

Edited July 6, 2009 by The_Vigilante

[HSMITH]

I don't think it is the one shot, I load the casefeeder and spray it on the cases as it turns so it is getting inside the cases. I do not load for a couple minutes, maybe 5 minutes, so it can dry. I do not get inconsistent ammo doing it.

I'd check for setback. Safely cycle 25 rounds through the gun without firing them and measure OAL, see how it compares to ammo from the same batch that hasn't been cycled. I haven't seen case capacity in different brands amount to a significant difference in 45 acp.

[Pittbug]

This is how I apply the one shot. I have all my prepared cases in a large cardboard box, spray them, mix/work them around by hand, then spray again and work again. Most of them will then sit for minimum 15 mins before they're put into the case feeder. Most of them will sit for days before being loaded. Oneshot makes a huge difference when sizing, I won't reload without it.

I'll try dropping 10 charges and weighing that, great idea. I do spot check the powder dispenser every now and then, perhaps every five hundred rounds or so. I usually throw about 5 or 6 charges and weigh them individually. The most variation I usually see is 0.1gr.

I'll also check for setback, thanks. What I'll do is chamber each one from slidelock, to minimize the variation.

edit: spelling

Edited July 7, 2009 by Pittbug

[SoonerPast]

Just a bit off subject, I am a recent convert to Clays. But, I have to load with a minimum of 4.1 grains to get to major, reliably. 4.0 to 4.1 with 230 plated RN will get me 725-740 fps. I haven't used any primers except Remington. Like was mentioned earlier, keeping the inside of the casing dry, seems to help, no powder flakes stick to the side.

What I like about Clays is the consistency from shot to shot and the recoil seem flat.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I had trouble with 700-X giving inconsistant results. I had a very occassional stovepipe and some rounds felt and sounded different, lighter. I think it is because 700-X is a fluffy powder just like Clays. Powder would bounce out of the case when the press shellplate would snap into position. Also I have heard that lighter charges of "fluffy" powders will bridge in the powder hopper and give inconsistant charges. It didn't happen often enough for me to prove anything, but I know something strange was going on.

My remedy was to switch to Titegroup.

For a really neat minor .45 load I like a 200 grain bullet. The gun cycles better than 230s and the powder burns better.

[ben b.]

For One Shot, I spray the inside of a small plastic bucket, then drop the brass in and swirl around with hand. That gets it all over the outside and never on the inside. It does not take much of a spray to get some lube on all cases, and I do about 150-200 cases at a time.

Single weighed measures are much more vulnerable to the error of measurement than throws of 10 charges, but if the variance is never more than +/- .1 gr, that is probably the error of measurement and not the culprit. I'd still measure throws in units of 10 for gauging reliability of the thrown charges.

Testing for possible setback from slidelock is a good idea, I'll remember that one.

[Pittbug]

Here are the results of tonight's work:

Measurements before chambering / after chambering / calculated set back:

1. 1.257 / 1.254 / .003

2. 1.257 / 1.251 / .006

3. 1.259 / 1.257 / .002

4. 1.260 / 1.259 / .001

5. 1.257 / 1.256 / .001

6. 1.255 / 1.253 / .002

7. 1.257 / 1.253 / .004

8. 1.257 / 1.251 / .006

9. 1.257 / 1.257 / 0

10. 1.259 / 1.242 / .017 (Aguila headstamp)

11. 1.257 / 1.256 / .001

12. 1.260 / 1.258 / .002

13. 1.259 / 1.254 / .005

14. 1.259 / 1.257 / .002

15. 1.258 / 1.258 / 0

16. 1.256 / 1.253 / .003

17. 1.257 / 1.252 / .005

18. 1.258 / 1.256 / .002

19. 1.257 / 1.253 / .004

20. 1.259 / 1.258 / .001

21. 1.256 / 1.252 / .004

22. 1.258 / 1.254 / .004

23. 1.257 / 1.256 / .001

24. 1.257 / 1.252 / .005

25. 1.260 / 1.259 / .001

Average setback is .0035, but the .017 is the wildcard, so if I remove that, the average works out to: .0027

Then I dropped 10 measures of powder. I recorded the reading on the scale after each drop. The number in brackets is the calculated drop to make that current total weight from the last drop.

3.6 - (0)

7.0 - (3.4)

10.6 - (3.6)

14.1 - (3.5)

17.7 - (3.6)

21.1 - (3.4)

24.7 - (3.6)

28.2 - (3.5)

31.8 - (3.6)

35.3 - (3.5)

edit: spelling

Edited July 7, 2009 by Pittbug

[ben b.]

If you did it again and got a total of 35.2 to 35.4, I'd figure your average is right around 3.53 gr per throw. Those throws look right on the money to me.

And setback doesn't seem to be the issue, either.

Edited July 7, 2009 by ben b.

[Storm52]

May be too late to remember, but was the feel and flip happening during the last rounds in the mag? I am leaning toward increased setback occuring recoil. Check your crimp. My 2¢

[Pittbug]

ben: I'll throw another 10 charges tonight when I get back home.

Storm: I remember it was actually part way through a mag, round 5 or 6, definitely not the last round. I'll recheck the crimp tonight.

[Jman]

Variance in case volume can display similar results. Load 20 with matching headstamps and test.

edited for clarity. only a 1/2 a cup of coffee...so far.

Jim

Edited July 7, 2009 by JimmyM

[JThompson]

I'd run them through a chrono and make sure you actually have an issue. I've heard guns where the timber sounded off and the chrono did NOT bear that out. I'm not saying you don't have an issue, just that it would be good to know for sure before you get to far into troubleshooting.

Edited July 7, 2009 by JThompson

[Pittbug]

I don't yet have a chrono, perhaps santa will be kind to me this year.

[The_Vigilante]

The basic F1 Chrony is only $70.00 on Walmart.com if that helps any

[Pittbug]

Looks like a great deal, thanks V.

[kmitchl]

I strapped an aquarium pump to my powder measure. With it turned on I get more consistent results using flake powders like Clays. The vibration consolidates the powder in the metering chamber so all of the drops are the same. I don't think this is the placebo effect since I can see the results in a reduced SD over the chrono.

[Boats]

Without knowing anything about your methods, just based on experience with inconsistent loads. It's almost always the powder measure.

Good throws are so dependent on uniform operation. Clays in particular if "rushed" will drop short. Listen to what kmitchl said vibrating Clays made it more consistent. Loads you noticed the problem with are gone and can't be weighed. Ones you ran as test could have easily been thrown more deliberate or slower allowing full measure. As long as I have been loading, over 40 years can still throw short charges when rushing out a batch of 38's with Clays.

I shoot Schuetzen Rifles loading a single 32/40 case breech seating at the shooting bench, 100 shot matches. The number one thing that can cause my loads to be "off" is not operating the measure same way ever time. You can hear it going off and see the low shot on target when spotting.

Boats

Edited July 8, 2009 by Boats

[Pittbug]

Thanks for the info guys. I try to be fairly consistent when actually operating the press. I try to get into a rhythm so that I can hear what's going on as well as feel and see. If something doesn't sound right, that's also a signal to stop and investigate. I've found that with so many moving parts, my ears will sometimes pick up problems before I can see them.

I'll try experimenting with different speeds to see if the powder drops change.

Thanks for the info.

[Flexmoney]

When you do 10 test throws and measure, make sure to also measure all 10 together (not just add them up). This will give another degree of accuracy.

Adding just multiplies your single sample error times the number of samples taken.

Remind me, Chad, Conrad...one of us...to bring a chrono with us next time out. (and prepare a variety of samples)

[Pittbug]

Flex: When I was measuring the powder throws I just kept adding them to the dish and weighing the lot. The numbers in brackets are calculated by subtracting the previous total from the current total, so the total of all 10 charges in the dish was 35.3gr. Is that what you meant?

Thanks for the offer on the chrono, that'd be a big help.

[gm iprod]

As an observer from afar.

Variance in case volume can display similar results. Load 20 with matching headstamps and test.

edited for clarity. only a 1/2 a cup of coffee...so far.

Jim

Way more important that many people realise. SORT YOUR BRASS.

I'd run them through a chrono and make sure you actually have an issue. I've heard guns where the timber sounded off and the chrono did NOT bear that out. I'm not saying you don't have an issue, just that it would be good to know for sure before you get to far into troubleshooting.

The lie detector (sorry chrono graph) is a must if you are having problems. It is a must if you reload.

Plus group test, carefully, slowly and lots. I like to start with 5 - 6 shot groups, then if there is a serious problem 10 shot groups will show things a little better. But you must be fresh and lucid to do this. Not too much coffee or RedBull etc.

Crimp, already mentioned. This is also significantly affected by the lack of brass sorting. The brass will be different lengths and therefor will have a variation of crimp applied. Plus varying wear on brass within your loading batch. Each piece of brass will be expanded and or flared ever so slightly differently than the next.

If you are running the new style Dillon Powder mEasure witht he double powder bar activator system, put the springs back on as well as the failsafe return rod. This really helped using Clays with my 45 and 38Spl.

Case Lube will not cause you problems with powder. Unless you are stupid and fill the case full or spill it into the powder hopper.

Add all the little things up you get a big issue that may be very simple to cure.

[CocoBolo]

+1 On the chrono. You can't trust the human body for hearing or feel those senses are just not that accurate. I would sooner trust a 10 shot group on a bulls eye target at 25 yards from a shakey rest.

One thing I would do is pump the charge up to about 4.2gr so you can get to 165pf. The Wheel Heads aka Revolver guys talk about getting squibs when they are trying to use Clays as a minor steel load, picture that a Squib that has powder in it, not all but one here and there. My unsupported theory is that the large volume of a 38 Special and the small volume of Clays are too far apart in the case, its like having a high primer things just don't come together.

When I load WST another flake powder I leave my tumbler running on the bench, it seems to always be running but I get pretty consistent Chrono results. I use range brass, RO matches come home with a bucket full, so that's probably not the issue, it could maybe account for 10 fps or so.

+1 on consistent ram yanking, when I got my Case Feeder and started running a 100 rounds every 6 minutes my Extreme Spread and SD grew, so like shooting I had to slow down a notch to get accurate powder drops. My reject bucket also filled up.

Bottom line with no Chrono pump up the load to major PF somewhere between 4.0 and 4.4 gr in a 40 with 180gr. As always check for pressue signs as you move up.

[Flexmoney]

Flex: When I was measuring the powder throws I just kept adding them to the dish and weighing the lot. The numbers in brackets are calculated by subtracting the previous total from the current total, so the total of all 10 charges in the dish was 35.3gr. Is that what you meant?

Yes, exactly....for the total.