Offhand finger in FRONT of trigger guard?

[doc540]

Maybe it's because I have long fingers and/or play bass guitar, but it seems my most stable grip is hooking the tip of my index finger over the serrated front edge of the trigger guard on my semi's.

Is that an acceptable grip method?

If not, why would they serrate the front of the trigger guard?

[Dan Hefta]

It is not the perfect grip, but if it works for you, fire away!

[Matt Griffin]

There was a period where that was a recommended "tactical" grip, but it has passed out of favor, as the finger tends to pull the gun around. That said, both Angus Hobdell and Eric Grauffel use this grip, so it is certainly workable at the highest level. If it fits your hands and you aren't wondering where the shot went when the sights were RIGHT THERE, then go with it.

H.

[Graham Smith]

This was a popular grip at one time and some shooters still use it. Be careful not to apply too much pressure to your index finger in that position or you will find the barrel moving to the weak side.

[Carlos]

Brian's book urges one to keep an open mind, expiriment, and find what works for you. Let the timer and quality of your hits determine the best grip for you. As stated, Angus Hobdell and at least 2 current world champions (Tyc & Graufel) employ this grip.

[Anubis]

I think its all about what works for you.

I can't use that grip because I end up pulling my shots left, but if that's whats comfortable for you then thats what's important

[P.E. Kelley]

I shot that way (finger forward) for many, many years. I earned my GM card in that fashion. I changed after the first

few volley's from a Ruger Redhawk in 475 Linebaugh. (high speed powder embedded in my knuckle)

I am a simple guy and like to keep the fewest methods in mind for most every situation.

So I dropped that habit and adopted the more conventional grip that we see today. It works for most all handgun types

and power levels.

"Finger forward" works very well for muzzle control. TOO WELL as the index finger has a lot of strength

and can "steer" the muzzle ON or OFF target.

It was the rage for many years, I even had "hooks" welded on the front of my trigger guards.

As has been said keep and open mind and experiment. I did and left "finger forward" and Ernie Hill "fast tracks"

behind.

Good luck the journey is half the fun.

Patrick

[G-ManBart]

Nothing says it's a "bad" grip but it has generally fallen out of favor. It doesn't put your left wrist in the strongest position and that's probably why it's not very popular now. The more popular grip with the left thumb pointing towards the target cams your wrist forward into a stronger position, but that doesn't mean it's better for everyone. R,

[GmanCdp]

look around and find the Jerry Barnhart series on vhs or dvd..he used the finger front system..sometimes when i shoot a Glock 26/19/34,moving from around props,i'll catch myself with the finger on the guard..didnt seem to slow me down and sometimes it happens with the 1911...set up 2 or 3 targets and try it way out on a timer...

Edited June 17, 2009 by GmanCdp

[JThompson]

A pretty well known shooter from France uses it too.

We strive for a neutral grip that allows the gun to come back to the same place every time. I'm not sure that is really possible... I think you can get it close, but you are always driving the gun whether you think you are or not. We make these micro adjustments all the time. I think the key to the grip is getting it close to neutral as possible and then drive it where you need it. All this stuff really goes back to Newton's laws, and in particular the 3rd.

I know on close targets I hang on that sucker like a vise and little thought is given to how neutral I am. For the longer tighter shots I lighten up on the grip and get very even and light. For quick shots like a plate rack I tend to want it very neutral, but with more left hand so I can work the trigger smoothly without upsetting the gun much. This is probably the grip I should use in most cases.

All this stuff to one side the most important thing for a shooter is to be able to read the sights and resist the urge to see brown and slap two rounds at it with one poor sight picture. I see this all the time in new shooters. Not only do they have a poor sight picture on the first shot, they accept a C zone as that sight picture and then bang two rounds off with that single picture and wonder why they have a mike or two Ds. As you progress you find out what is acceptable (within the A zone) shot, but to begin with you need to have that sucker as close to center and slightly low as you can. Then take the time to actually acquire that same sight picture for the second shot. Those guys shooting 10-12 splits shooting two As have earned it. You need to earn yours, you do that by putting 95% or better of your shots in the A zone. When you do that consistently your speed will naturally pickup as you see that same picture faster and faster. My last two stages I shot at the house match I was down a total of 7 in 64 shots and my times were fine. I found that dot for every shot. The biggest problem I see and have myself is cadence. You put x thousands of rounds down range and you "know" when the dot returns. The problem is that it doesn't return exactly and that .02 you take to make a micro adjustment is the key. There are shots where you are close enough to shoot on cadence and know you are going to get the hit you want, but again, I think this skill should be earned and not demanded.

I never really formed complete thoughts on the above, so I set it down here for my benefit as much as anyone else's.

JT

Edited June 17, 2009 by JThompson

[CHA-LEE]

Few things to consider……

Run with what works for you.

Always keep an open mind on trying different things

The index finger on the front of the trigger guard grip has a couple of challenges. First it gives a false sense of “Control” over the recoil. Sure you can get more leverage against the gun to combat the recoil doing this. But if you do any amount of research on competition pistol grip methods, the number one important factor is consistency of recoil recovery, not control of the recoil. Secondly it creates an additional push/pull point on the gun which will create steering issues while shooting as your finger tension changes. This will cause accuracy issues when shooting fast.

If you are using a proper thumbs forward grip (with all support hand fingers under the trigger guard) you are leveraging the forward cam of the support hand wrist to combat the recoil, verses a single finger on the front of the trigger guard. You tell me, which one of these (A single finger verses a whole wrist) will be stronger and more consistent? The same factor applies to the steering of the gun. When you have all of your fingers under the trigger guard they become one mass of fingers all working together. This also builds a solid foundation of consistent grip pressure on the gun.

You have to think about the shooting conditions as well. Pretty much ANY grip will work for taking one shot every second or so. But when you want to shoot fast, with .10 - .20 sec splits, you need a grip that is strong enough and consistent enough to support that level of shooting. In my own testing the only grip that is able to do that and yield consistent results is the thumbs forward grip with all fingers under the trigger guard.

[uscbigdawg]

There was a period where that was a recommended "tactical" grip, but it has passed out of favor, as the finger tends to pull the gun around. That said, both Angus Hobdell and Eric Grauffel use this grip, so it is certainly workable at the highest level. If it fits your hands and you aren't wondering where the shot went when the sights were RIGHT THERE, then go with it.

H.

Don't forget that "Burner" uses this grip too. Between him, Eric and Angus, it's a viable option.

Rich

[CJDOUBLETAP]

If it works for you, use it.

I heard from someone on the AMU team and they say not to use the finger on trigger guard grip because it makes it easier to pull shots. I would try shooting a group at 25 yards with that grip and with the normal grip. That should determine what is best for you...

[uscbigdawg]

And revisit the one that didn't work, say 3, 6, 9 months (or whatever timeline) from now to see if what worked initially, still worked. This applies to more than your grip.

Rich

[shred]

At one point it was the grip to use, even to the extent of welding hooks onto the trigger guards. Now, not so much. Even some of the people that use it teach the other grip.

There are some advantages in hand placement and recoil control, but likewise disadvantages in control and pulling shots..

As others say, go with what works and keep experimenting.

[CocoBolo]

I used that grip for a while, then I got the Burkett video's and decided that it was probably better to listen to the expert, and went to the std thumbs forward grip. Theory being that perfecting the wrong technique won't be much of an improvement.

However, the theory is that the gun goes up and it comes down if you have a balanced grip it comes right back to where it was. If it goes left or right this is recoil steering. If your grip is neutral then it is ok, if you are going left or right then you need to fix that. In order to see this happen the eyes must remain open during shooting and track the front sight, this is easier to do on an open gun with the dot.

Recoil Control, I RO'ed Travis Tomase one of the greats and his gun rocked as much as mine does, and I think that you got just a good a chance of stopping the wind from blowing as controling recoil. Let it go up and come down, minimize it to you comfort level with the right load, but don't steer it left or right.

The way I test changes is on a plate rack, estabalish a base line on time by making several runs, then change one thing and make several timed runs and compare the results. If there is an accuracy issue it will definately show up on the timer, some how missed shot just takes longer.

[doc540]

Thanks for all the input.

I've only shot about 600 rounds so far through the two, new semi's I've purchased, so it's early in the game.

I know for a fact that I'm not pulling shots (assuming that "pulling" with my left index finger means pulling left and/or low?).

I'm probably doing several other things wrong, but none of my shots are consistently left of center.

This weekend I'll try using the proper "thumbs forward" grip and monitor how I shoot.

Again, I appreciate the input and the forbearance with a noob like me.

I really do enjoy shooting and having bought a Sig 2022 means I'm moving beyond the world of my carry snubs (and beyond the S&W Stigma which, by the way, arrived back from S&W yesterday. On their dime they did, indeed, improve the smoothness of the notoriously bad Sigma trigger.)

My plan now is to shoot local IDPA with this Sig, four mag's, and a Fobus holster and dual mag pouch.

Anything else you could recommend that I need to start? (I've managed to accumulate about 2,000 rounds of 9mm hardball.)

Got a long way to go, but it was a confidence builder for the future.

Edited June 17, 2009 by doc540

[CHA-LEE]

Like I said before, when shooting slow and you have a lot of time to realign the sights before taking the next shot, ANY grip will pretty much “work”. The next time you go to the range use the same target and distance and shoot 4 - 5 rounds within one second. That will put your shot splits in the .20 - .25 second range. This is a good average speed at which you should be able to engage a 7 Yard target during a USPSA stage run and still retain A Zone hit accuracy. There are many shooters that can easily shoot faster than that (.12 - .15 sec splits) as well so .20 - .25 splits are an achievable average to work towards. If your hits look like a shotgun blast on the target during this 4 – 5 shot string then there is your evidence that your grip and trigger pull isn't where it should be.

Think of it this way.... If your grip is balanced to the gun and you are not inducing any unwanted movement into the gun during recoil (poor grip) or ignition (poor trigger pull), then you should be able to do the same 4 - 5 rounds per second string of shots with your eyes CLOSED and still achieve pretty much the same group of shots on the 7 Yard target as you do with your eyes open. Granted shooting with your eyes closed is a dangerous practice that I wouldn’t advise. I am just using it as an example.

If your grip is unbalanced and the sight alignment is off after every single shot, you have to realign the sights again before taking the next shot. This takes a TON of time, verses having your grip balanced to the gun and when the gun cycles the sights return to 95% - 100% of where they should be. I am not saying that if you have the perfect grip you never have to validate the sight alignment between shots. You ALWAYS want to validate the sight alignment on every shot in order to call it good or bad for when the shot breaks. But you don't want to be fishing for sight alignment between shots. I hope this makes sense.

[uscbigdawg]

At 7 yards, you'll see some, but push that thing out further.

Rich

[doc540]

"If your grip is unbalanced and the sight alignment is off after every single shot, you have to realign the sights again before taking the next shot. This takes a TON of time, verses having your grip balanced to the gun and when the gun cycles the sights return to 95% - 100% of where they should be."

Yes, makes good sense.

re: "push that thing out further"

Did you mean "at greater distances"?

If so, I did shoot out to 25 yards.

Also, I'm baffled at why my long-pull, double action accuracy was comparable to my short-pull single action accuracy.

I would have thought double action with a new gun would be significantly less accurate than single action.

What's up with that? (affected by shooting my snubs so much?)

[CHA-LEE]

Technically, if you are slow firing at 7 Yards there better be a single one inch hole in that target where ALL of your shots are passing through. Your ability to shoot fast accurately is based on being able to shoot accurately period. If you can't shoot accurately slow, then you can't expect much if any accuracy when you shoot fast.

I think that too many people forget that solid marksmanship is the base that your skills are built upon. If you have poor marksmanship then all of your issues will be magnified when you try to speed things up.

[CHA-LEE]

Old gun, New gun, Double or Single action shouldn’t matter in the accuracy department as long as you are pulling the trigger back without inducing any unwanted movement into the gun. The heavier or longer the trigger travel is requires a more refined and perfected trigger pull skill set to keep things aligned during the process.

[doc540]

"The heavier or longer the trigger travel is requires a more refined and perfected trigger pull skill set to keep things aligned during the process."

That's what I thought and what surprised me when my initial double action accuracy was comparable to the single action accuracy.

And I understand that becoming comfortable, confident, and accurate at slow fire is foundational to moving on to anything else.

Moving from a Colt snub to a Sig Pro, while a challenge, is being a heck of a lot of fun!

wow....just found THIS: http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_trainin...0306/index.html

Edited June 17, 2009 by doc540

[CocoBolo]

Well that article just pretty well sums up everything that has been said here, just does a better job of it.

Grip, Trigger Control, and that don't mean squat if your stance isn't good, everything will fall apart after the third shot, when you go off balance.

As an RO at a local match the caters to Beginners my favorite stace is the Lounge Chair Larry stance, where the guy leans back like he is in a lounge chair. He will get a couple of good shots off then it just falls apart.

Ok, your on the road now you are reasearching, finding out the right things to do, and that is smart. The modern isosilise pardon the spelling not the Champman or the Weaver those are for one single well placed shot, but not rapid fire.

Check out on U-Tube for Matt Burkett and Todd Jarrett, they have some educational video's posted out there, get an education Video from Burkett or one of the other top shooters it will save a lot of anguish learning the hardway.

Ooh the stance, hips square to the target, knees slightly bent, bend forward at the waste, gun pushed out in front of you with your good grip, but elbows not locked. Also very important any change in direction starts by turning the entire upper body like the turrit of tank, swivil at the hips keep weight biased on ball of feet. I knew a girl called swivil hips but she didn't shoot.

Good Luck, quit putting it off go to a match, you will be humbled but just hang in there and make hits and don't even think about being fast. Brian Enos says just take it one shot at a time, when you see what you need to see break the shot!

Edited June 17, 2009 by CocoBolo

[Matt Griffin]

There was a period where that was a recommended "tactical" grip, but it has passed out of favor, as the finger tends to pull the gun around. That said, both Angus Hobdell and Eric Grauffel use this grip, so it is certainly workable at the highest level. If it fits your hands and you aren't wondering where the shot went when the sights were RIGHT THERE, then go with it.

H.

Don't forget that "Burner" uses this grip too. Between him, Eric and Angus, it's a viable option.

Rich

I didn't mean to sound like I was disparaging the grip, I was just saying that it seemed to come into favor more from the tactical side of the road than the competition. That said, I'm pretty new so I'm going off of memory from mags and whatnot, FWIW.

H.