Semi new shooter(less then 5 matches)

[waxman]

A younger shooter I recently RO'd did something I want opinions on. This stage called for you to have your pistol loaded on a X on a table, along with your magazines. The shooter was shooting a Beretta 92. When he set the pistol down, he immediately sat down in the chair which was,the start position. Before i even had the chance to say anything he was seated. He left the safety off, on a cocked loaded pistol. I remember a question on here about DQ'ing a guy for placing a loaded pistol in his holster with the safety off. Just curious what most of you RO's would have done. Just a FYI. About 3 weeks ago, I DQ'ed a young shooter for pulling his pistol out while I was checking the stage for people and target readyness. I dont think i had a choice, i was about 15' away from him, and he just started making ready, without me. The point here is ,I have not seen the shooter since, and I hate to, but I kind of feel bad, for doing that to a new shooter, even though I was right. Comments??

[Matt Cheely]

DQ's have no gray area, he either committed the infraction or he didn't. Respond accordingly!

[Jack Suber]

When we have courses of fire requiring that a loaded gun be placed on a table for the start position, I make sure that I am watching what the shooter is doing. If he forgets the safety, then I will stop him and tell him to engage it before he walks away, sits, assumes the start position, etc. At LAMR, if the competitor is about to put an unsafe firearm in his holster, I will stop and warn him before allowing him to do so. I always try to watch for this, especially with newer shooters. Not sure if I would DQ him if I was the RO and he was under my supervision..

Edited June 16, 2009 by Jack Suber

[Fireant]

DQ's have no gray area, he either committed the infraction or he didn't. Respond accordingly!

+1,000,000 to this statement. I have been called the hatchet lately because people are having brain fades in the heat down here, but they either broke a safety rule or they did not.

[Punkin Chunker]

A younger shooter I recently RO'd did something I want opinions on. This stage called for you to have your pistol loaded on a X on a table, along with your magazines. The shooter was shooting a Beretta 92. When he set the pistol down, he immediately sat down in the chair which was,the start position. Before i even had the chance to say anything he was seated. He left the safety off, on a cocked loaded pistol. I remember a question on here about DQ'ing a guy for placing a loaded pistol in his holster with the safety off. Just curious what most of you RO's would have done. Just a FYI. About 3 weeks ago, I DQ'ed a young shooter for pulling his pistol out while I was checking the stage for people and target readyness. I dont think i had a choice, i was about 15' away from him, and he just started making ready, without me. The point here is ,I have not seen the shooter since, and I hate to, but I kind of feel bad, for doing that to a new shooter, even though I was right. Comments??

There are a lot of people who will weigh in with more insight, but based on your description, the shooter violated 10.5 since he(?) did not comply with 10.5.3.4. So in that regard, the DQ was valid.

The other part seems to be the crux of your question-- should you have DQ'd a young shooter, begs another question -- at what age (or experience level?) do you want to start holding a young or beginning shooter accountable for safety? I hate any DQs (especially when it's me ), but the lesson you convey to a young shooter when you say, "Okay, that was unsafe, but we'll look the other way this time." isn't a good lesson at all.

The situation seemed, by your description, to be compounded by his rushing to shoot. Whether from nerves or from complacency, or from a little beginner's cockiness, the lesson that needed to come through was, PAY ATTENTION. You didn't have time to coach him or catch him before the safety violation happened, so you were stuck with the situation.

Stop him, explain the situation, explain the DQ, and mentor him through the rest of the match as your sidekick. If he was young enough to have a parent there, then -- where was the parent when the young shooter needed to be coached? But involve the parent in the process too.

As I started out, there are TONS of people with more insight than mine, so I hope they offer up some ideas as well.

[Jack Suber]

When we have courses of fire requiring that a loaded gun be placed on a table for the start position, I make sure that I am watching what the shooter is doing. If he forgets the safety, then I will stop him and tell him to engage it before he walks away, sits, assumes the start position, etc. At LAMR, if the competitor is about to put an unsafe firearm in his holster, I will stop and warn him before allowing him to do so. I always try to watch for this, especially with newer shooters. Not sure if I would DQ him if I was the RO and he was under my supervision..

To clarifiy, I was not trying to state that if the infraction occured, I would not DQ. In my opinion, as the RO, I would want to try to prevent that infraction before it happened. if it looked like the shooter was about to place an unsafe gun down out of his control, then I would want to stop him before hand. I especially would not want a confused, nervous, new shooter trying to retreive that pistol, post-infraction, and trying to clear it. I think the safest action would be to try to prevent the infraction. In this particular situation, I feel it is the duty of the RO to prevent an unsafe situation if he/she can.

[BritinUSA]

When I RO new shooters I always stay very close to them and watch what they are doing. Usually if they start to make a mistake it can be corrected before the infraction. So if I see them moving the gun towards a holster and the safety is still off, I can correct them before they get to the DQ point.

Perhaps a possible solution is this:

If you have a new shooter on your squad then assign a seasoned shooter to stand with them while everyone is scoring pasting the targets from the previous shooter. This will stop them from reaching for the gun while people are down-range. Then when the RO returns he can walk them through the LAMR and ensure that no mistakes are made.

Just a thought.

[JoshF]

DQ's have no gray area, he either committed the infraction or he didn't. Respond accordingly!

Agreed

Along with that if someone is old enough to be trusted with handling a firearm they take along with that the responsibilities that come with it. Just remember that a DQ isn't done cause it's just not allowed, it's cause those actions could lead to someone getting hurt or killed. Keep that in mind as you RO.

As for shooters not returning to the sport. A DQ will happen along the way, if they stop shooting cause of a DQ it'll happen sooner or later. So don't carry that on your conscience.

[waxman]

Stop him, explain the situation, explain the DQ, and mentor him through the rest of the match as your sidekick. If he was young enough to have a parent there, then -- where was the parent when the young shooter needed to be coached? But involve the parent in the process too

The father was right beside me and saw the infraction. After this all happend, i talked to him, and he said he saw it, and he said, it will never happen again, and the kid should know better.

I understand what Matt said, and i agree 99.5% I know we should be all like robots, and "YOU BREAK RULE, YOU GET DQ'ED" I totally understand this, and it is probably best. I guess since we have had so many new shooters this year, I have taken a little bit more a, a, a, patient ?? stance. If they are breaking a rule that I consider imminently dangerous, Of course DQ, but if the action is not truly dangerous, and can be corrected safetly, I have been giving a mentoring session, and 1 warning.

I can hear the bashing now, I am being too soft, but let me explain. The biggest problem I see is finger in the trigger guard, while moving, and reloading. Yep this can be unsafe, but if the gun is pointed down range, i believe it justifys 1 warning. Now any other infractions like breaking the 180 or other obvious danerous issues, there is no warning. For instance I had a new women shooter step up to the line and as I finished looking over the stage, I turned my eyes and attention to her as soon as she saw my eyes, she began to LMR. I stopped her, and counceled her, that she cant do that until I say so. But if you look at the big picture, there was nothing unsafe about it, I was still there, words just had not come out of my mouth yet. I warned her, she felt bad, then we procedded. Well, Truth Be told, Scold me all you want, I did not DQ the young man this post is about. The pistol was pointed down range, and to fix the situation, he picked it up, put the safety on, and then placed it back on the table. There was no Danger here, But both He and I know that that was his last warning. This is what I did in the moment.Right or wrong.

[Fireant]

For instance I had a new women shooter step up to the line and as I finished looking over the stage, I turned my eyes and attention to her as soon as she saw my eyes, she began to LMR. I stopped her, and counceled her, that she cant do that until I say so. But if you look at the big picture, there was nothing unsafe about it, I was still there, words just had not come out of my mouth yet. I warned her, she felt bad, then we procedded.

HMMM, nothing unsafe huh? Well, what if when you did giver her the MR command and she racked the slide a round came out from yesterdays practice? I've seen it way to often. Safety rules are there for a reason. They are our line drawn in the sand, so don't cross them. When I leave in the morning for a match, my family expects me to come back home in one piece and the rules are what makes that happen. What if since they only recieved a warning from several RO's for trigger in the triggergaurd during a reload they combine that infraction with a 180 violation and AD while doing it? When we get lax on making the hard calls then people think just like you do, that they are not really that dangerous. Remember that little pebble you roll down the top of the mountain makes one hell of a snowball at the bottom.

Shooters have to know that there is a punishment for breaking the safety rules. If my boss tells me to be at work by 8 in the morning, but never does anything when I come in at 9 what have I learned? I've learned that he does not follow his own rules. We all have to follow our rules every time, not just sometimes.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Fireant

[waxman]

While I do value our opinion, and I did ask for it, I think you are being just a wee bit too hostile. You are taking my comments out of context and twisting them to make me look too leanient and unsafe. I Am doing the best that I can. We had 2 new shooters meetings this year and both classes were standing room only. It is a great time we are living in, where so many new shooters want to share our sport. I RO'd a squad about 4 weeks ago, where I was the only one who had ever shot a USPSA match. What are the odds that all of them were going to perform perfectly there first time out? did you?

I want to make something perfectly plain, If you are dangerous, or if you break any of the DQ rules, and you know better, you will be DQ'ed if I am the RO. The issue I am talking about here, is new shooters, that are not necessarly unsafe they are just doing things that we dont allow in USPSA.

I went to a local bowling pin match last year, just for kicks. When me and a fellow uspsa shooter were down setting pins, we turned around to see3 or 4 guys with there pistols out waiting for us. I mean we were shocked. The point I am trying to make here is alot of people have shot before, but simply dont know every rule in the 92 page rule book. How should we treat them? Yell at them, and kick them off of our ranges? some say yes. I am trying to be as fair as I can while still maintaing order and safety.

[Spray_N_Prey]

I feel your need to "be nice" and humane to new shooters. I've seen more than one, more like 5 new shooters from last year that got DQ'd from our local club. Only one came back and that was from about a 4 month break. All were for 180 infractions. I have personally let 2 shooters slide for a 180 break. one of them turned the gun while I was keeping score when he was moving to the left and reloading right at me. As in barrel pointed at my head. I was in shock too much to stop him. I just about shit my pants and then felt like I had a heart attack for about the next 3 shooters. My adrenilin was pumping so hard I could have lifted a truck.

I didn't want to be the "bad guy" and this has bothered me ever since. I feel that I let myself down, USPSA down, all of the other shooters, NROI and anybody to be associated with the sport. I feel like I failed. But most of all, I failed the shooter by NOT doing my job. Because if this shooter does this again and he didn't even realize when it happened that he did it (or afterwards), what happens if he does this again and has a slam fire or finger in trigger and bam he kills someone. I will feel partially responsible for this because I was an enabler.

Don't EVER let yourself become a laxed RO. DO YOUR JOB OR DON'T RO!!!!!!!!!!!!

remember you don't DQ someone. they DQ themselves, your only there to do your job!!

Please listen to what i've said. I've been there and it doesn't make you a better person to be the nice guy when it comes to Ro'ing. It will make you a better person to do the right thing and follow your responsibilities as an RO.

Shawn Ginardi

Edited June 16, 2009 by Spray_N_Prey

[waxman]

Ok, I am getting a pretty common theme. I wont push this any farther, i know what is being said. If they break a rule they get a DQ, no mattter what, no matter who, no matter if you think the rule is right or wrong. 100% swift action. Unload and show clear, your done. I understand.

I just wanted to know what other would have done, in the moment. Now I know. Thanks guys.

Ya range nazi's

[BayouSlide]

I had to DQ a first time shooter recently at the last stage of a match. When I asked him if he understood the COF, he drew his pistol before the Make Ready command. I wish I had been able to stop him before he cleared the holster but I wasn't able to react in time. For a split second, I considered letting it slide. But I explained what he did wrong, explained why it was a problem...even told him that I had been DQed at my first match as well...and it was a lesson learned that I never forgot. Sure, I still felt bad about ending his day, but safety is the line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed. I would feel even worse if I were the R.O. that let something slide...then end up with somebody hurt or worse at a later date from a safety lapse due to inattention to safety rules.

Recently I read something like "They are called rules, not suggestions" in the signature line of one of the area directors. Good advice, especially for anything safety related.

Curtis

[kgunz11]

Don't EVER let yourself become a laxed RO. DO YOUR JOB OR DON'T RO!!!!!!!!!!!!

remember you don't DQ someone. they DQ themselves, your only there to do your job!!

Please listen to what i've said. I've been there and it doesn't make you a better person to be the nice guy when it comes to Ro'ing. It will make you a better person to do the right thing and follow your responsibilities as an RO.

Shawn Ginardi

+1 to all that. You have the safety of others you are responsible for, do the right thing. You can't put a level of how bad a safety infraction is, they are all equally bad. There is no good one and no worse one. They are all equally unsafe.

[Jack Suber]

DQs are always unfortunate, but we have them for a reason. Its also unfortunate if they turn away new shooters, but sometimes that is how it goes.

Our own Ms. Kitty had to DQ a new shooter the weekend before last for a 180. This wasn't a slight 180, this was an "Oh Sh*t everybody duck 180." The guy was not happy about being stopped and DQ'd. He got mad and left. Too bad. Ms. Kitty did the right thing and was fine after we revived her...

Its hard being an RO, especially if you are the only one on a squad. Its hard to stay sharp and pay attention. But, its something we have to do - that is why our sport has such a good record.

As BritainUSA stated, try to be very close to the newer shooters so that you can stop them before they do something really dangerous. But if they violate the rules, they must be enforced.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Jack Suber

[ima45dv8]

But if they violate the rules, they must be enforced.

Jack makes an excellent point, but what if they don't know the rule(s) being violated?

One cold morning a couple of years back we had a new guy go to a USPSA match with us. He'd only shot Steel before. An hour and and a half later we arrive at the match and all 6 of us gear up and get ready. On the first stage, I hear someone called my name and when I turned I saw a really high-anxiety look on the face of the guy with the timer. He was making some serious googly-eyes at this new guy, who he had just told to LAMR.

As I walked toward them I saw the back-up gun he was wearing in a small-of-the-back rig.

He had only removed his coat and hadn't yet loaded his "match" gun, so I just threw my arm around his shoulder while letting my jacket cover his back. I asked me to follow me. I walked him, with my arm still around his shoulders over to my Suburban, removed the back-up and cleared it. After locking it in the truck we went back and continued the match. He was not issued a DQ.

What failed here? Simple....we did. Five experienced USPSA competitors spent 90 minutes talking about all things gun-related, except the rules. And since we were late getting to the range, he missed the safety briefing that is normally given to new shooters. I couldn't in good conscience DQ the guy when we didn't bother to explain what he couldn't do.

I wasn't there David, so I don't know whether this young shooter you described knew not to place his gun down with the safety off. If he did, a DQ might have been in order under 10.5.3.4 (allows laying it down, but only if the handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1). If he didn't, then I would have probably done the same thing you did. Regardless, I hope he knows not to ever do it again.

[Aristotle]

I had to DQ a new competitor just this Sunday for jumping the LAMR command with people down range. It was his 2nd match, and I was trying to mentor him through the match, coaching him along and he was doing very well.

You could just tell he was devastated and left shortly after. This may sound cold, but I felt bad for about 1 second. I don't know about you guys, but I shoot with friends and family. Their safety is of the uptmost importance, it is MY responsibility.

[kgunz11]

Is the Suburban a safe area?

Why not take him to a safe area to remove his BUG and bag it?

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[ima45dv8]

Is the Suburban a safe area?

Why not take him to a safe area to remove his BUG and bag it?

You're right that even though some might think that with 6 heavily-armed USPSA shooters on board it was a pretty safe place, it wasn't a Safe Area.

But handling a live gun in the Safe Area wasn't the right move, either. I had to make a quick judgement call and I did the best I could.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Very true.

Not explaining the rules and setting proper expectations of behavior, and then DQ'ing someone for having been the victim of such an oversight is a perfect example.

[kgunz11]

I know you were doing the best you can do Mark. You're a great RO and a walking rule book dictionary, that's why you often see me be-bopping your direction when there is a question with the rules on the range. I was just giving you a hard time.

[ima45dv8]

I know you were doing the best you can do Mark. You're a great RO and a walking rule book dictionary, that's why you often see me be-bopping your direction when there is a question with the rules on the range. I was just giving you a hard time.

Thanks for the kind words, though I don't know if I deserve them.

And yeah, I knew you were just humping my leg!

[warpspeed]

We have had similar discussions here before regarding new shooters, safety infractions & DQ. It always ends up with not wanting to discourage but not wanting to set a bad precedent. It is a fine line but a line none the less. Once crossed, there is no going back. The rules are the rules and cannot be administered differently at a club match than the nationals.

One thing I think gets lost here is that this is a game. The rules that apply to games usually have penalties that go along the lines of a redo or handicap. I'll give an example. In the game of golf, if you shank a shot into the OB, you get a penalty stroke and count the one you hit and go again. Not go home. In baseball, a ball that is hit foul counts as a strike and the batter continues. Not kicked out of the game. So when we have new shooters come into our sport, the perception is that if they do something not allowed, like taking too many steps in basketball, they have some sort of penalty that is short of hitting the showers. Now it is true that we have plenty of those types of penalties but most other sports do not have the " you are done, go home" type. Heck, even in hockey you can wack a guy with the stick, draw blood and only get 4 min in the box.

I think that it real important to make sure that the new shooters have a very clear understanding that safety infractions have the possibility of irreversible consequences and therefore have stiff penalties so that when they break the 180 and get sent home, they do not get the red ass and never return.

[SoonerPast]

Alan ran his "New Shooter's School" at EAGunclub last weekend. It would be really good if more clubs could conduct such events. The people who came soaked up the information that was provided and in an environment that was absent the "supercharged" air at anyone's first matches. My take from it is that Ronnie and Alan have started a great service to all of us who compete at EA Gun Club. It was also fun to see new shooters get "turned on".

[Alan Meek]

I had to DQ a first time shooter recently at the last stage of a match. When I asked him if he understood the COF, he drew his pistol before the Make Ready command. I wish I had been able to stop him before he cleared the holster but I wasn't able to react in time. For a split second, I considered letting it slide. But I explained what he did wrong, explained why it was a problem...even told him that I had been DQed at my first match as well...and it was a lesson learned that I never forgot. Sure, I still felt bad about ending his day, but safety is the line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed. I would feel even worse if I were the R.O. that let something slide...then end up with somebody hurt or worse at a later date from a safety lapse due to inattention to safety rules.

Recently I read something like "They are called rules, not suggestions" in the signature line of one of the area directors. Good advice, especially for anything safety related.

Curtis

This is why as an RO you should only issue the proper range commands;

Make Ready,

Are you Ready,

Stand By,

<Start Signal>

If You Are Finished Unload and Show Clear,

If Clear

Hammer Down

Holster

Range is Clear.

(STOP can be issued any time during the course of fire if it is warranted)

Asking the shooter "if he/she understands the course of fire" or stating the "range is going hot" are not official range commands for USPSA matches and use of these commands can lead to the issue of a competitor drawing their gun to make ready as they reacted to the communication from the RO.

After the "Area you Ready" if the competitor is not ready they can state not ready and the RO can proceed to unload them following the proper range commands so they can get ready.

As far as the range if going hot, as an RO did you ever declare it cold? You should have declared it clear, for the purpose of going down range to score targets and reset the stage for the next competitor. That is not the same as declaring it cold.