DMAC Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 I just find it hard to see that "anybody" out there is saying they will not shoot 3gun at all just because they cantuse their Saiga ? You just cant possibly make everybody happy when rules are involed but we have to have them. I dont see anybody pushing for just optics or just comps in USPSA Limted. Thats because the rules are well established. Universal 3gun rules anyone ?? I'm not saying people won't shoot because they can't shoot their Saiga. But what if a class of existed (as I discussed in my OP) grew larger than "Open" because of the number of people wanting to shoot a Saiga, with tactical handgun/rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Matches already allow them in Tactical!!!!!!!!!!! you stand a better chance of getting the budget balanced than getting a UNIFIED set of 3 gun/ Multigun rules. So what you are trying to accomplish is either already done or it's not going to happen, Trapr I guess I need to look at all the match rules of the major 3 gun competitions because I thought that several don't allow mag shotguns at all in tactical class. I agree with your comment about unified rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 This reminds me of NASCAR every time they tried to cut the cost of racing it just about broke every team. The Saiga has an unfair advantage over the conventional shot gun, not in shooting but in reloading, if I get beat on a shotgun stage it is the reloading. To level the playing field let them use them however they may only start with one loaded mag, all other reloading must be done from no more than 4 shotgun cartridges in the weak hand into the mag once loaded the mag may be inserted. They just need to velcro the empty mags to their thigh to load one handed. It cost a lot of money to get equipped for 3-Gun, don't make everyone go to a Saiga just to compete. I'm working on a belt fed Rem 1100, belts will only have 11 rounds so they should be legal, right? My Saiga cost $550. I agree with your comment regarding reloading. Why not have fun shooting a shotgun with a magazine and not have to spend the time practicing reloading a tube fed shotgun. Again my OP suggested an optional class so that it would not detract from the purely "tactical class" and no one would need Saiga "just to compete". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Hold on ----- let me get my popcorn ready. Another 3 gun rule thread. Woohoo! I think we need a unified set of rules on how to bitch about 3 gun rules. I'm sorry if this thread struck a nerve. That was not my intent. I know there have been other posts regarding this. It is not in any way meant to complain about current classes. I'm just making an observation and sharing some ideas. Since it appears that the interest in competing with a Saiga is growing, I thought there would be some other more experienced competitors with some constructive thoughts as well. Best Regards, Damien Your OP was not the problem. BUT every time something even close to this gets brought up it usually devolves pretty quickly. Specially when someone mentions unified rules. Thanks and I agree. My OP never mentioned unified rules, however I did respond to someone who mentioned this and things deteriorated and drifted rapidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 to answer the OP:NOT ONLY NO, BUT........... NO! jj ps; OK I got a little lippy, sorry... Work your equipment within the parameters of the classes we now have. RM3G has 5 classes, choose one and go for it! Just about any of our classes will work for everyone. We need MORE non-Tactical Scope shooters!!! and by the way, Open class isn't so bad, you get to do just about anything you want with your kit! JJ. No worries. I shot on your squad at Blue Ridge and I know you are a great guy who has done much for the sport and I highly respect your opinion. In general I am a firm believer in "less is more" and the KISS principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 Anyone who wants to shoot a Saiga (& I will shortly be one of them) should be shooting in Open. If you want to do it on a budget, you can. No-one is saying that you have to go out & blow $3 to 5K on an Open pistol, there are options well below that. Similarly with your rifle, you don't need a JP to be competitive at any level of the sport.I just got back from the MGM Ironman & was shooting on the same squad as Matt Burkett (the winner, again.... ) & there were 3 others in that squad shooting Saigas. Robert Johnson was shooting a nice R&R Racing prepped Saiga as was Dustin Lohof. Despite both Dustin & RJ being very experienced Open shooters, Matt, shooting his trusty Benelli & using sticks, won the day. Skill, not equipment is paramount in 3 gun. Having a good plan, shooting that plan & being on top of your game is what counts. I think we will see new shooters rising to the top in Open & the Saiga will help for sure. I shot Open & hand stuffed my reliable as hell Beretta Extrema because I just didn't want to invest in all the crap that goes along with sticks but I do love shooting my Open pistol. My rifle this year was my coyote gun with a Leupold VX-III 3.5 -10 on it. I just can't miss with this thing but it also isn't a usual Open rifle. My point is that you don't necessarily have to copy the top open guys with equipment to win or place highly. Spending more time on the range will raise your game more than anything else, whether you shoot a Saiga or anything else. Get out & shoot!!! I'll bet you had a blast and I wish I could have been there. Your last comment is something I firmly believe in. I just wonder if the Saiga will increase in popularity enough that novice shooters may start with a Saiga and putting them into "Open" for their first match might not be the best option for shooters with little experience or little time to practice. Matt Burkett's performance illustrates your point very well and it actually is the reason I suggested a different division. If newbies are shooting Saigas, why make them compete against everyone in "Open"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) I will say keep the different divisions the way they are and be done with it. I might want to shoot a single stack 1911, but a 223 scoped rifle. Does that mean we should have a special class for that since Its not competative in tactical where people are shooting the 20+ round mags? They key difference between the open shotgun and the limited shotgun is the reload plain and simple. With the saiga the reloading skill would be gone especially with the bolt hold open, mag well where you dont need to rock the mag in etc. People wouldnt shoot the saiga because they have such a love for the saiga platform,they would do it because they want every advantage they can get, it would be shot because it is what would be required to win on the shotgun stages. Allow it in anything but open and you force the tactical people to have to upgrade to a new shotgun to stay competative. Whats easier cranking in 8 shells by hand or slapping in a 10 round mag downloaded to 8 that would load like the ar if you have the magwell on the gun. Take 2 like talent shooters and the saiga will be much faster. If the other shooters in tactical have to load their mag one at a time with no speed loaders then if they want a saiga in tactical they should have 1 mag and load that 1 at a time just like the other shooters in the division do. I agree with most of your comments, which is why I suggest putting the Saiga into a separate division and not have them compete against tactical tube loaders. Your logic about creating a separate class for a 1911 is interesting, but this is just another magazine loaded pistol that happens to hold less rounds than other magazine loaded pistols. I think the analogy of comparing a Saiga to a tube fed shotgun (tactical or open) is quite different than comparing a 1911 to say a 2011. I think it is more in line comparing an AR to a tube fed rifle (which I have never seen anyone compete with in a 3 gun match for obvious reasons). Edited June 17, 2009 by DMAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Ahhh the great big bug-a-boo of the mag fed shotgun! So far I have been told on 5 different occassions that the "mag fed guns" will dominate Tac/Ltd no matter what. I have yet to see it, and I have shot against them heads up! I also haven,t seen that much difference in the "speed loader" crowd except for a chosen few...WHO PRACTICE!!! I just don't see this as an "equipment race" when the equipment we are talking about is about HALF the cost of any of the winning shotguns as we know them! I just don't see the problem let them into "tactical", I have always said that, and I have no plans to buy one! I think everyone is WAY wigged out about the device...kind of like the anti crowd! Trapr and I agree on this one....IT IS A NON ISSUE!!! KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1bigshooter Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I have talked to several competitors who will not shoot 3-gun, because they get bored/frustrated with stuffing shotshells one at a time, especially newbies. Having hte option of going to a mag-fed shotgun for them could potentially increase the participation. AND - I agree, skill wins out in the end. BUT, we need to make it as easy as possible for new competitors to participate, and not be frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 yeah, and we should make getting into the special forces easy because we need to make all the wanna bees that can't handle stress and fitness, feel better about themselves. That comment from new shooters, is an excuse, not a reason. Excuses make them feel better, than the REAL reason, that they just want everything easier, instead of PRACTICING. There is a very big difference between REASONS AND EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Payne Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 yeah, and we should make getting into the special forces easy because we need to make all the wanna bees that can't handle stress and fitness, feel better about themselves. That comment from new shooters, is an excuse, not a reason. Excuses make them feel better, than the REAL reason, that they just want everything easier, instead of PRACTICING. There is a very big difference between REASONS AND EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trapr +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I have talked to several competitors who will not shoot 3-gun, because they get bored/frustrated with stuffing shotshells one at a time, especially newbies. Having hte option of going to a mag-fed shotgun for them could potentially increase the participation.AND - I agree, skill wins out in the end. BUT, we need to make it as easy as possible for new competitors to participate, and not be frustrated. I gotta disagree. When I started I couldn't load a shotgun for beans. (now at least I can load it for 3 beans) I saw some guys who were a lot better and rather than bitchin and moaning and getting discouraged I decided to get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latewatch Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 yeah, and we should make getting into the special forces easy because we need to make all the wanna bees that can't handle stress and fitness, feel better about themselves. Trapr Make Special Forces easy...I though Special Forces already was easy.... Now Band Camp, that was hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 doing a smooth mag change in a Saiga will take PLENTY of practice The top guys feeding one at a time may still beat you The Saiga is nothing to fear...both tube fed and box fed, have good and bad points. It will all even out in the long run. But in open ...be afraid...be Very afraid Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I think we should just leave the classes the way they are. I bought an R&R Saiga after getting a chance to shoot one in Arizona. I figured that if I wanted to shoot a Saiga then I would compete in Open, even though I don't have an open pistol. Now I can also use a bipod, so I don't have to worry about which matches will let me strap two mags together. On the CMMG mag fed shotgun, I have seen a prototype and it is SWEET! Looks like an AR-10 that shoots really big bullets! Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I am adamantly opposed to any new classes. As far as I am concerned let them into Tactical. If they get developed up to the point where I need to get one, then I will get one. But on the other hand why are the Saiga shooters so fearful of Open? It's not as if competition is more fearsome in Open. You want an Open rifle, add a bipod to your tactical rifle or maybe add a 2nd optic or maybe don't do anything and your Tactical Rifle will still be competititve. Pistol? Buy a new top end with a comp and a dot or just add a dot to your existing top end or just don't do anything and go out and shoot. BTW We are going to see this issue with pistols as many Open class ideas are making their way onto "realworld" pistols. The argument will be Navy SEAL Team XXX uses dots, comps, whatever on their killa pistols so why can't we have them in Tactical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShooterSteve Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I agree with J-Ho, if someone doesn't want to shoot because they have to load the gun, they have problems ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 If loading a shotgun is keeping someone from playing...I'm sorry...it's a shotgun and that's how you load it. Get over it or go play in a different class (or sport). Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I am adamantly opposed to any new classes. As far as I am concerned let them into Tactical. If they get developed up to the point where I need to get one, then I will get one. You still beat me by a few seconds at the local matches when I am using my Saiga with 20 round drum. So you're probably safe for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Thats right Russel, and I usually beat Kelly by a good half second so I guess I will take the rest of the summer off from loading practice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 yeah, and we should make getting into the special forces easy because we need to make all the wanna bees that can't handle stress and fitness, feel better about themselves. That comment from new shooters, is an excuse, not a reason. Excuses make them feel better, than the REAL reason, that they just want everything easier, instead of PRACTICING. There is a very big difference between REASONS AND EXCUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trapr +1 !! There are so many analogies that can made from these statments above for the world we live in today, but it would get political real fast !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Thats right Russel, and I usually beat Kelly by a good half second so I guess I will take the rest of the summer off from loading practice Please do. You should practicing rifle anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ERIC Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Not another class. Pretty soon, there'll be a class for semi shotguns and scoped rifles in heavy metal. Wait a minute...........nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) I'd like to look at this from a different angle: I believe the whole argument about divisions is only an issue because of the MULTIGUN match structure and how we calculate the scores. By mixing more than one gun type in a stage, we tie our hands on which equipment combinations are permitted, and how results can be calculated. I would prefer to see more matches in a 3-GUN format (i.e. only one gun per stage). Under such rules, there would not need to be any overall equipment divisions; all shooters would be free to use any gun they wanted within a given stage, so long as that stage recognized single-gun divisions and scored accordingly. In this way, there would be no reason why a shooter could not shoot, for example, a Single Stack pistol, a Tac Iron rifle and an Open shotgun, and be entirely competitive. The current overall divisions would be meaningless, of course, so the final results would simply rank competitors according to their divisional stage points for all stages added together (I favor IMGA time-plus scoring, with each stage normalized to 100 points by division). Incidentally, this approach would also resolve the Major vs Minor caliber issue under USPSA rules, and would eliminate the ongoing debate about prize table allocation - only one table would be needed. Hopefully more former Tac Iron shooters (like me) would migrate back to that division. IMHO, the value of multigun stages and "transitions" is highly overrated... I would be entirely happy to see transitions pass into history. Edited June 19, 2009 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) I'd like to look at this from a different angle: It's already done like this ...... IPSC 3gun. The only difference is they do it because laws in certain countries prevent a multigun stage as that would be some sort of malitia training or something. Infact I think that they cant shoot them the same day even so fri. is rifle, sat. pistol,etc.. I say no, a hugh part to the game is "Managing the three guns and all of the ammo and equiptment that goes with that !! Edited June 19, 2009 by P.Pres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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