Fix for the snapping shellplate on a 650

[snowshooze]

I machined out the bottom of my shell plate and installed a very thin thrust washer in there.

It was a fair effort, I did a superb job of it. And I use a very nice roller thrust washer.

But the reality is that there is little to no pressure on it when indexing, and I honestly could not tell a difference.

I make and sell stuff for these, and I wouldn't steer you wrong. If it worked, I'd be selling it.

I do use one on the top side I got off ebay though. I think it probably helps a bit

[snowshooze]

I've tried pretty much every fix for the 650 shell plate snap. Here is a summary of what I've done:

• Thrust Bearing - smoothed out the operation, but did not fix
• Cut 1/2 coil (then another half) - a little smoother but not fixed
• Phenalic (sp?) ball and lighter spring from ebay - tooooo soft - kept the spring, ditched the ball
• Adjust the indexer block - this was THE final fix. No more snapping, no more not locking fully in place (soft detent spring). Fix was found here.

Ultimately, messing with the detent ball and spring left me with a press that would not put the shell plate properly into position. The pressure from the stock spring and ball help "force" it into position, resulting in the snap. By adjusting that indexer block, in my case pushing it towards the back of the press, the shell plate locked into the proper position. It stopped the snapping completely.

Hope this helps

There is a lower cam follower that runs on the ring cam that rotates the shell plate. If you dink around with that enough, you can adjust it to stop right alost perfect where the shortened or lighter spring will index it to the final position with next to no pressure... thusly eliminating a lot of snap which can make some powder jump clear out of the case.

[snowshooze]

I cut 1/2 a gap out of one end.

[edmachi]

Alan,

Did you have a problem with the ejector wire. After the MOD the next completed bullet will push the wire into the next incoming shell.

Thanks,

Eddie

[Sarge]

Alan,

Did you have a problem with the ejector wire. After the MOD the next completed bullet will push the wire into the next incoming shell.

Thanks,

Eddie

Just run the bearing with one washer on top and none underneath.

[snowshooze]

I've tried pretty much every fix for the 650 shell plate snap. Here is a summary of what I've done:

• Thrust Bearing - smoothed out the operation, but did not fix
• Cut 1/2 coil (then another half) - a little smoother but not fixed
• Phenalic (sp?) ball and lighter spring from ebay - tooooo soft - kept the spring, ditched the ball
• Adjust the indexer block - this was THE final fix. No more snapping, no more not locking fully in place (soft detent spring). Fix was found here.

Ultimately, messing with the detent ball and spring left me with a press that would not put the shell plate properly into position. The pressure from the stock spring and ball help "force" it into position, resulting in the snap. By adjusting that indexer block, in my case pushing it towards the back of the press, the shell plate locked into the proper position. It stopped the snapping completely.

Hope this helps

Hi Goose;

There is another part to it.

Under the shell plate about the ram is a rotary cam. It engages the shell plate via the spring loaded pawl, and there is a little bracket type cam follower on the frame that it works against.

Loosen the screws, both of them a bit, and position it around until you realize the perfect hand-off between the rotary cam and the detent ball.

It is a very fine adjustment, and only dinking with it a while will make you realize what you are looking at... but soon as you do, it makes perfect sense.

You want that detent ball to drop in at final and hold position. That is all.

You don't want to expect it to rotate the shell plate.

That is perfect adjustment.

Mark

[ropsitos]

Have any problems cropped up from changing the adjustment? I.e., with priming?

I can't imagine that dillon adjusts them to get just right snap in the shell plate to infuriate its customers. Wondering if the snap is a compromise that you get because another adjustment is more critical?

[mjohn]

Good Point!!!!

[azgoose]

I've tried pretty much every fix for the 650 shell plate snap. Here is a summary of what I've done:

• Thrust Bearing - smoothed out the operation, but did not fix
• Cut 1/2 coil (then another half) - a little smoother but not fixed
• Phenalic (sp?) ball and lighter spring from ebay - tooooo soft - kept the spring, ditched the ball
• Adjust the indexer block - this was THE final fix. No more snapping, no more not locking fully in place (soft detent spring). Fix was found here.

Ultimately, messing with the detent ball and spring left me with a press that would not put the shell plate properly into position. The pressure from the stock spring and ball help "force" it into position, resulting in the snap. By adjusting that indexer block, in my case pushing it towards the back of the press, the shell plate locked into the proper position. It stopped the snapping completely.

Hope this helps

Hi Goose;

There is another part to it.

Under the shell plate about the ram is a rotary cam. It engages the shell plate via the spring loaded pawl, and there is a little bracket type cam follower on the frame that it works against.

Loosen the screws, both of them a bit, and position it around until you realize the perfect hand-off between the rotary cam and the detent ball.

It is a very fine adjustment, and only dinking with it a while will make you realize what you are looking at... but soon as you do, it makes perfect sense.

You want that detent ball to drop in at final and hold position. That is all.

You don't want to expect it to rotate the shell plate.

That is perfect adjustment.

Mark

Thats exactly what I was talking about. I've got the press purring like a kitten now. Still the occasional grain of powder here or there, but 99% better.

[HOGRIDER]

Mark:

Sent you a PM.

Thanks,

Ben

[snowshooze]

Have any problems cropped up from changing the adjustment? I.e., with priming?

I can't imagine that dillon adjusts them to get just right snap in the shell plate to infuriate its customers. Wondering if the snap is a compromise that you get because another adjustment is more critical?

Nope, the basic machine is all timed out to index to the detent pocket. That is supposed to be dead zero, but one might be able to loosen the stage and get it to rotate just a fuzz in that clearance around the screw holes. Not much, I haven't tore in that deep lately.

Oh, I do remember though, I did lap the pawl a bit, the little spring loaded index thingee that is the tooth that pops up and engauges the shell plate to turn it.

I kinda changed the attack angle and put a real smooth finish on it. I think that is when I re-timed, I don't think it was far off from the factory to start with.

What you are adjusting down there is how far around that shell plate get's turned.

When it is perfect, the detent ball doesn't do anything but anchor it there.

Edited February 6, 2014 by snowshooze

[snowshooze]

Does anyone know if this will work for the 550? Please let me know.

Aloha,

wc

Guys I sold my Phenolic bearing and custom spring to say say it helps. I am a bit baffeled as the 550 is a hand index... but I have never ran one.

Mark

Edited February 6, 2014 by snowshooze

[snowshooze]

got the bearing kit and phenolic ball+spring . maybe it's me,but the bearing kit made the shell plate action very rough .my press runs smoother without the bearing kit. i run the detent ball spring with 1 coil cut,that's been the best improvement i did to date to reduce the abrupt stop. however i'd like to make it even smoother if possible,maybe i miss something with the bearing-washer set up.

Was that mine? Drop a line. This is important stuff to me.

Thanks,

Mark

[Tcon260]

Snowshooze,

I just got around to installing your phenolic ball + spring….gotta say snapping problem solved!

[KnurlingTurtle]

I installed the ball, spring and cam roller a few weeks ago and it works better for me then clipping the stock spring or the washer fix.

Edited March 2, 2014 by KnurlingTurtle

[HOGRIDER]

Just now doing the initial setup on new XL650, and installed Mark's phenolic ball, spring, and roller cam follower. Also installed the bearing and one washer under the shellplate bolt.

At this point, running some test/dummy rounds, shellplate indexing is smooth as silk!

[Rico567]

Finally started to run low on pistol ammo, so I unlimbered the 650, and applied several mods I read about here and elsewhere.

1. The combination of the needle bearing / 2 washers mod on top of the shellplate, plus the phenolic ball and shortened spring under it has (as far as i can tell) virtually eliminated any shellplate "snap" or impact when stopping. No powder shaken from case any more. It seems like some people had to bend the ejector wire to make this work, but I did not.

2. I used the drilled-out .303 British case slid under the primer cup bracket to replace Dillons' whimsical cup. As it happens, some 7/16" vinyl tubing I had around left over from homebrewing was a perfect interference fit onto the .303 case, and thence down into a container.

3. I found a battery-powered LED light on Amazon for a few bucks that is really nice when aimed down through #3 hole in the toolhead into the case, to show the powder level.

All good mods!

Edited March 11, 2014 by Rico567

[sigsauerfan]

got the bearing kit and phenolic ball+spring . maybe it's me,but the bearing kit made the shell plate action very rough .my press runs smoother without the bearing kit. i run the detent ball spring with 1 coil cut,that's been the best improvement i did to date to reduce the abrupt stop. however i'd like to make it even smoother if possible,maybe i miss something with the bearing-washer set up.

Was that mine? Drop a line. This is important stuff to me.

Thanks,

Mark

yes. maybe it,s me,as i said, the bearing kit did little apart of making my press rougher to turn....i only used one washer and the bearing Under the bolt. then tried to tighten to various tensions with no improvements at all except the press was then rought to index....it's probably me who hasn't found the right setting,because obviously it works great for other users....however i found that cutting one coil on the original spring did the best improvement .when the shell plate stop in the next station it doesn't hiccup like it does with the OEM uncut spring. but i must say i baby my press all the time so it always ran quite smooth,only the rough indexing was causing powder spillage,now problem solved.

[gigs]

We are selling phenolic balls for the Dillon 650/550/910 now: http://ballistictools.com/store/dillon-650-detent-ball

I'm using it with the full strength spring and the bearing kit and that's pretty much perfect for my machines.

Edited March 19, 2014 by gigs

[gigs]

yes. maybe it,s me,as i said, the bearing kit did little apart of making my press rougher to turn....i only used one washer and the bearing Under the bolt. then tried to tighten to various tensions with no improvements at all except the press was then rought to index....it's probably me who hasn't found the right setting,because obviously it works great for other users....however i found that cutting one coil on the original spring did the best improvement .when the shell plate stop in the next station it doesn't hiccup like it does with the OEM uncut spring. but i must say i baby my press all the time so it always ran quite smooth,only the rough indexing was causing powder spillage,now problem solved.

When you put a bearing kit on, you just make the bolt a tiny bit tighter than what you would do without one. You can't crank the bolt down because there's still only a bearing on one side, so it's just cutting the friction by about half.

[Sarge]

What does"bearing on one side mean"? My bearing has little bearings exposed on both sides?

[RDA]

What does"bearing on one side mean"? My bearing has little bearings exposed on both sides?

I believe he means above and below the shell plate (i.e, both sides) as opposed to just on top of the shell plate under the bolt.

[sigsauerfan]

What does"bearing on one side mean"? My bearing has little bearings exposed on both sides?

I believe he means above and below the shell plate (i.e, both sides) as opposed to just on top of the shell plate under the bolt.

the washer-bearing kit comes with 2 washers and the needle bearing cage.

as many, i used the bearing and 1 washer instead of the whole kit to avoid bending the ejector spring interfering with the tower in station 1.

this set up isn't as smooth as my present set up (1 coil cut on the ball detent spring) ...but haven't tested the washer-bearing arrangement further ; probably i will have to get into it further more when i'll start to load with 3N37 which will fill the case right to the edge of the case mouth....at the moment i load with vv320 and vv340 , it's not a problem since the cases aren't filled entirely.

[fumbles]

The added height of the washer and bearing is doing more than the rollers. Jacking up the base plate is increasing the distance of the ball detent to spring detent. It is likely just as effective to using a shorter spring. The downside to using washers or bearings is that dies must be adjusted. Additionally this changes the distant of the primer system to the case. I don't have any issues with the primers flipping. I used one washer.

The idea is that the snap lock-action of the ball is too fast. But if you reduce the sliding friction it should make the indexing faster. The bearing makes the indexing smoother, not because of friction or gliding but by reducing the force the spring presses the ball into back side of the shell plate.

If I were to do this again I would order some extra springs and clip them down until they didn't spill a full charge. Also loading the spring detent and ball detent with heavy grease should slow the movement. I'm not sure about how it would handle de-priming dirt or powder that did find a way under the shell plate.

The extra height allows for more dirt to get under the plate. On an unmodified setup, stick powder has a hard time getting under a plate. Flake powder can get under everything.

I'm surprised Dillon hasn't stepped in with ideas. Considering a shape other than a simple sphere would allow for a index without jarring the plate. A slightly domed cylinder would index more slowly with nearly as good of a hold. I plan to make or find something like this. The small radius of the ball is kicking the plate sideways as the ball indexes, and then stopping it just as fast. This is why it spills.

FYI I think Dillon is great. Their awesome customer service helped me get my powder system running within the resolution of my scale.

Edited February 5, 2015 by fumbles

[Sarge]

Dude the bearing and washer go on top of the plate not under it