ErikW Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Back in the day of 175 Major power factor, when I would shoot 175-177 at club matches and 180-185 at big matches, I shot 200 gr bullets in my .40 S&W Limited gun. I switched to 180 gr bullets when Major was lowered to 165, and I tried for 170 PF. But since making Minor one year at Area 2, coming close (167) this year at Area 1, I bumped my load up so I'm shooting 175-180 PF. (Made 176 at the Nationals this year.) I was noticing some major (ahem) recoil out of my gun today with my 180 PF practice loads. If I want to shoot 175-180 PF, maybe I should go back to the 200 gr bullets for a softer, more manageable feel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Try shooting a few matches with the 200 gr. and see how it feels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Eric, can I ask why you want to shoot 175-180? Definitely go with the 200's if you want to shoot that hot. Are you wanting to shoot that hot for the poppers? If I might suggest, if you want to shoot that pf for steel, you might actually try 165grn, I find that they work better with steel at around 170-175pf than a 180. That's just been my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Erik, I've been shooting 180 grain jacketed (170-175pf) for a couple of years and just recently tried some 200 grain jacketed. The gun feels really lazy, it feels very soft, but takes forever to get the sights back on target. I think I'm going to get some 165 grain jacketed bullets and try them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 RTB, I believe Eric is interested on guaranteeing his ammo will make Major and is looking to 200 grn bullets to soften up the recoil impulse a bit while still making WAY Major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 I want to shoot 175 PF because chronograph voodoo ensures that anything less will end up 164.99 or less (Minor) on some match chrono somewhere, again. It's going to be a pain to experiment. I'll have to get at least a thousand bullets, then find a powder. Back in the day, 3N37 was the hot ticket with 200s (go figure); maybe the similar 3N38 will work (I've got a bunch). I imagine N320 and N330 are too fast for that bullet at that velocity. Doesn't Phil Strader shoot 200s? And a few other big dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Eric, Maybe you want to have your chrono calibrated or review your chrono procedures. You shouldn't have to be loading to 175-180 PF to ensure 165 PF. My chrono is very consistant and tracks well with those at major matches if done under shade or a cloudy day but varies quite a bit if done in bright sun. Of course, chronoman and others recommend an artificial light source. I remember reading in GunGames that Leatham chronos 10 rounds and if any one doesn't make major, he bumps the load up a bit. Your problem also might be due to altitude, temp, or humidity sensitive powder too. I chrono for +6 PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Eric, Are you shooting fmj's or hollow points? We (my friend and I) have discovered that the metal base bullets give more velocity per powder charge. I shoot the Montana Gold jacketed bullets at 1.2" with 5.3 of N320 and maybe I will and maybe I wont make major. I switch to jhp (metal based) and it comes in at 170 no problem at the same length and the same powder charge. They are too expensive for practice and club matches but I just use the jhp bullets for big matches. No change in recoil in my SV. Nate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear1142 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Erik, A few thoughts for you. First, Phil is indeed using 200's. As of the this years Nationals, he was still using AA#2, but I think he's going to switch to N320, but don't hold me to that. I also use 200's, but I think it depends on your particular limited gun setup. I have a standard profile slide that has been lightened so it cycles pretty fast. The 200's let me shoot a slightly softer load with a fast cycling slide. Personally, I feel its the best of both worlds. If your limited gun is similar to your open gun (the supertanker), I would imagine it might feel a little sluggish if you go to the 200's, but I think you can play with the powders and spring rates to get the PF you want with the "feel" you're looking for. As you lamented, it does mean another complete round of testing. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Erik, I've been shooting the whole year with 200grs (both lead and plated) over Vit 320. I think I'll be switching back to 185grs (again lead and plated) next year, because lately I made a comparison in drawing and shooting a metal plate (10") at 15 yards, and I am consistently faster in split times with the 185s, about .07 / .08 seconds each time. To me, 200 grainers are softer in recoil, but with 185s the front sight settles back in the rear notch faster. Let us know about your feelings and decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 How much does your gun weigh Erik? Our IPSC shooters all moved from 200s at 180pf to 180s at 175 when the rules changed, no one is having problems. The big change in that time has been the weight we've put into the guns, using Tungsten Magwells and guide rods. I have tried 200's again, but was so disapointed with the lethargic sensation, I couldn't wait to get rid. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Erik, I have made 183 PF at the last 2 nationals shooting 4.1 grains of Titegroup over 200 grain PRecision Bullet out of my Fat Free Long Slide. This off season, I'll probably work on cutting it back to 175-180 PF and see if the timing still works wor me. I personally prefer the feel of the 200 over anything lighter and may also experiment with some even heavier 220 bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 16, 2003 Author Share Posted October 16, 2003 I've got long/wide frames, slab slides, and bull barrels. One has a lightened slide and tungsten barrel sleeve (thanks Brianh!). They only felt sluggish with 200s at 165-170 PF; that's why I went to 180s. Renee, when I shot 200s I used moly/lead like you and they were a little softer than jacketed. But I'm a convert to jacketed now. Nate, bingo! I usually shoot MG FMJs, but I got a case of JHPs, loaded them to the same length over N320 (even more than you use, which is a lot) and they make 180 PF instead of 175. That's what I was shooting yesterday. First time with the Limited gun since the nationals, after a bunch of Open gun shooting. It was an eye-opener. kbear38s, been there, done that. Switched from Clays to N320 and still had a near-Minor. It's all voodoo. Until they get scientific, I'm loading 10 PF high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Erik, off topic but I'm just real curious, do you still use an 11# spring with your 180PF loads? Back here in IPSC land, majority of shooters use 180 grs and most have no problems meeting the 170PF rule. I'm in the middle of load playing that's why I asked the question. Barely making major, 180gr with 4.9 gr of N320 @ 1.210 OAL (and quite strangely the same recoil impulse with a very minor 180gr load under 4.6gr of N340 @ 1.160 OAL) feels sluggish for me. So I'm at a loss as to go higher bullet weight or expriment with 155 gr instead or just add more powder and tinker with springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 17, 2003 Author Share Posted October 17, 2003 I use a RecoilMaster (heavy). Prior to that I mostly used 12# springs, when I was shooting around 170 PF. It's interesting how you can make 170 PF with only 4.9 gr of N320. I would be somewhere around 155-160 PF with that load! Maybe you use lead bullets; I'm sure the weather is hot and humid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Yeah, they're lead. FMJ's back here is just too expensive. The 4.9gr load I tried is from a buddy (Jasonub). Haven't tested enough ammo that long an OAL but prefer the shorter 1.160" for my para mags. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 With 180s, and anything else, wieght to wieght, the jhp is just a little longer than the fmj so if you use the same charge and don't adjust the OAL pressure goes up and you get a little more speed. Free speed, not a bad thing within limits. I just switched from 180s to 165s in my fat free 6 and get 1050 with 5.0 of 320. It really hits you in the palm but comes back very quick. I started with 200s, went to 180s now 165s and can't see going back. I tried to love 155s but they are very snappy. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Your problem also might be due to altitude, temp, or humidity sensitive powder too. Not for chrono measurements close to the muzzle. Altitude and humidity affect air density (the cartridge is sealed, so unless Erik loads his ammo at the match location, powder should be unaffected), and that affects bullet velocity at point of impact, mostly important for rifle shooters. Changes in air density have no measurable effect on bullet velocity when measured close to the muzzle. Your only real variable is then temparature, and variations of average velocity (v_av) and standard deviation of velocity (v_SD) with temperature. Erik, a nice calibrated chrono, and a set of careful measurements of v_av and v_SD as function of temperature should tell you all you need to ever know to safely make major anywhere in the world. Once you know the extremes of the expected on-site temperatures, you should be able to totally safely plan for it. Of course, don't forget to run the tests with main and backup gun. remember, I had to rechrono at the Nat's after switching to my backup? --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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