Race Holsters

[jasmap]

How many of us shoot upside down?

Good point, but it would be a reasonable test. I was essentially challenged, and that is what came to mind. So, let's see how many of your race holsters, WITHOUT the lock mechanism engaged, will hold the gun when held upside down?

It should be pretty easy to go grab it and test it

No I get what you're saying Z. I was just messing with you. I haven't tried it but I'm certain my holster wouldn't retain the gun with the holster upside down. I don't believe that holsters are a problem for the most part unless you get the "bungee cord" holster on the range though.

[zhunter]

It has been my limited experience that i am just as fast out of DOH as my ghost.

+1

[zhunter]

I don't believe that holsters are a problem for the most part unless you get the "bungee cord" holster on the range though.

Jason

I think there are quite a few out there that border on being dangerously close to unsafe. I think MOST are fine with typical starts, i.e. hands relaxed at sides, or surrender position. It is the other starts, sitting etc... when things get a bit unsafe with "loosely held" guns.

[JThompson]

Race holsters are not made to retain in and upward direction. They are meant to be drawn without restriction in the upward direction. That's what makes them a race hoslter. Now what? We lock them all the time? Don't regulate the class into oblivion.

[zhunter]

"regulate into oblivion"????

I think Open has plenty to play with.

Who would not prefer to have safer equipment tho??? Anyone, Bueller, Bueller????

[Carlos]

I don't think the rules should be changed (as in prohibiting them), but I wouldnt mind a retention test either. I also don't think they offer a much faster draw for the vast majority of what we do. I can do 1 flat or sub-1 second draws all day long out of a DOH and the holster has never been the limiting factor. Heck, I've got video of sub-1 second draws out of a single stack righ the the front strap above the top of the belt. The only thing I will say is that with an Open gun their size and shape make them hard to put in a position similar to what you'd get with a DOH and a Limited gun. Not being a tall guy, even if I could modify something like a DOH for an Open gun it would still be boring a hole into my leg/thigh and the long draw movement upwards probably would slow me down a bit. R,

I am with you & Matt Cheely. I voted to keep the lock on until the buzzer - BUT, that rule would effectively eliminate the Safariland with the screw-knob lock and the CR Speed (I own one for revolver division BTW). With the lock on at the buzzer, you effectively have to first reach down and disengage the lock, then go about drawing the gun (speed advantage negated).

For limited and open, I used a 1st gen Ghost & later a Limcat; I still have a newer Ghost for the Tactical Sports CZ limited. Those holsters allow the lock to be disengaged during the natural draw motion and it does not slow you down any more than disengaging the thumb safety on a 1911 or a 75.

I had the unfortunate experiences of DQing 2 experienced shooters who dropped loaded guns from an unlocked CR speed & I nearly dropped my 625 from my own CR speed once at the end of a long hot match & the gun was not precisely placed in the holster.

Retention tests once existed in USPSA, IIRC. But the use of "safety straps" and bunji "walk through" cords made them sort of useless.

[zhunter]

(speed advantage negated).

There is NO speed advantage or disadvantage when everyone is playing by the SAME rules.

So that is NOT a valid argument, sorry.

[JThompson]

(speed advantage negated).

There is NO speed advantage or disadvantage when everyone is playing by the SAME rules.

So that is NOT a valid argument, sorry.

Yes it is a valid argument in that everyone who runs a CR or Saf would have to sell their rig and run a ghost or the like. You need to look into what you are saying before you make arbitrary statements z.

The Ghost has a release right there by where your fore finger goes to draw the gun. The CR has a lock that pivots back and is not easy to do during the draw. You would take a 1 sec draw and turn it to 2 easy.

Edited May 28, 2009 by JThompson

[zhunter]

JT

What is the price you put on safety?

[JThompson]

JT

What is the price you put on safety?

Airsoft!

This sport is inherently dangerous, we run around with loaded guns shooting targets as fast as we can. If that's something you can't deal with to take up golf.

What's next? We do away with long firing pins because it's more likely to strike a round and set it off when dropped on the muzzle? There's no need for a 2 pound trigger, it's unsafe, let's make them no lighter than 5 pound to prevent ADs. Striker fired guns can not have trigger work because they have no safety and when holstering you have about 2lbs to a bang. Why have any targets where they can be shot from more than 150* because someone might break the 180? All targets must be more than 5 feet when shot to prevent frags. Ranges must have perfectly even footing and we must not shoot on wet surfaces, someone could slip and fall and cause an accident. All matches must be suspended at the onset of rain because of previous rule. I can go on......

Edited May 28, 2009 by JThompson

[Seth]

Has anyone ever gotten hurt as a result of a holster usage problem?

[bkeeler]

In Limited you do not need a Race holster.( I don't use one never saw the need to spend $150.00 for one and the risk of a DQ) If you want to use one know its limitations or suffer the consequences.

BK

[davecutts]

Blah Blah Blah!

If you don't want to race stay at home or go shoot a bulls eye match. We play with guns which is why the safety rules are so strict, why most ranges and larger matches require the shooter to sign a liability waiver. Because of the rules and our safety culture injury and death are very rare occurrences, but it is a sport people will get hurt. Accept the risk and move on or ... stay home. People get hurt/die playing or doing the simplest activities there is no way to take all the risk out of what we do.

Oh and I'll be keeping my race holster.

[zhunter]

Has anyone ever gotten hurt as a result of a holster usage problem?

Does someone have to get hurt?

Ever heard of being proactive?

[Gregory_k]

Maybe we should all play lazer tag and no runing.

IDPA has no race holsters and I feel a lot more unsafe at a IDPA than any USPSA match.

[Seth]

Has anyone ever gotten hurt as a result of a holster usage problem?

Does someone have to get hurt?

Ever heard of being proactive?

I was asking, not making a point. The same logic can be applied to using real guns and ammo in a big hurry, btw.

[zhunter]

OK, running and gunning is what USPSA is all about, PERIOD. That is a given.

Does it have to include holsters that are less safe than they could be?

Hell, why not just do away with the 180 rule and really have some fun??? That is the logic you guys are arguing from.

[JThompson]

90% of the people in the pole said to leave it be... but here again, the 10% tell us they know better than we do. No offense Z, but I get enough of that shit already.

With that I go back to stealth mode lest Flex or Mark get involved.

JT

[CAB33]

JT

What is the price you put on safety?

zhunter, I think you are putting a lot of effort into starting an argument.

[Xfactor]

I don't think we should disallow race holsters, but I would not be opposed to a retention test.

+1

An otherwise "properly functioing" race holster can be a liability if it is adjusted poorly.

I didn't vote, because I fall somewhere in between "Yes, let it go." and "...get rid of them..." I use one (Limcat) and I'm REEEEAL careful with it. When I first started using it, I once forgot to engage the lock and had a dropped (unloaded) gun on a walk through. Lesson learned, big-time. If they were banned, I would be OK with going back to a Blade-Tech.

[Bigpops]

Maybe I have already missed this question BUT...just how big of a problem are the race holsters? I am fairly new to this game and have yet to see a problem. The only negative things I have heard are from reading the forums.

This reminds me of my archery days. The "stickbow guys" (recurves and longbow) VS the "gadget boys" (compounds). In some places it almost tore the sport apart. Seems like a lot of wasted effort to me.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Bigpops

[zhunter]

JT

What is the price you put on safety?

zhunter, I think you are putting a lot of effort into starting an argument.

I don't feel the same. I think I have pointed out a potential safety problem that most don't care to address, hence the hostility.

Go and try the upside down test on your race holster, see how it works.

I am all about running and gunning, it is what makes what we do so much fun. I am talking about the part of our sport before the running and gunning takes place

[dqshooter]

Blah Blah Blah!

If you don't want to race stay at home or go shoot a bulls eye match. We play with guns which is why the safety rules are so strict, why most ranges and larger matches require the shooter to sign a liability waiver. Because of the rules and our safety culture injury and death are very rare occurrences, but it is a sport people will get hurt. Accept the risk and move on or ... stay home. People get hurt/die playing or doing the simplest activities there is no way to take all the risk out of what we do.

Oh and I'll be keeping my race holster.

The reason for the liability vaiver is "so that when dumb ass shoots themself or someone else because they are an idiot it is harder to sue the range owner, not impossible but harder." Oh yes there are ambulance chasers on the range as well as everywhere else. You just can't fix STUPID, I am keeping my Ghost, I like it alot.

[larry cazes]

With that I go back to stealth mode lest Flex or Mark get involved.

JT

Good Judgment. My guess is that they will be involved pretty soon regardless.

[kgunz11]

JT

What is the price you put on safety?

zhunter, I think you are putting a lot of effort into starting an argument.

I don't feel the same. I think I have pointed out a potential safety problem that most don't care to address, hence the hostility.

Go and try the upside down test on your race holster, see how it works.

I am all about running and gunning, it is what makes what we do so much fun. I am talking about the part of our sport before the running and gunning takes place

Are you going to mandate we all have our grip safety as a working part next? Your argument IS based on safety right? Yeah, I know all the safeties work on your SS guns, but in other Divisions, which your argument attacks, more grip safeties are deactivated than there are working ones. So is that your next platform... in the guise of a safety seeker.

I like my Ghost holster because it allows for more retention than a CR Speed or Kydex and it does not mar the finish on a gun I have spent so much money on to make pretty. As the user of a Ghost holster, I made it a point to properly familiarize myself with the workings and adjustments of the holster, and I know it's limitations and I treat it accordingly.