Just how good are USPSA competitors?

[BSeevers]

Interesting how this evolved but back to org post yes USPSA pistol shooters are by far the best in the world. There is nothing even close to these demonstrated skills in the "regular" world. That includes police, military, local hotdog club champion... anything. You guys should know that.

[JKSNIPER]

I couldn't disagree more. "Talent" has nothing to do with it.

Usually it is dedication, desire and perseverence, but I would not completely discount Talent. There are some people who lack fine motor skills and do not have fast reflexes. Practice can overcome a lot of this, to a certain extent, but not completely. Max Jr. says something about looking for shooters for AMU that are fast, he says he can teach shooting, but you can't teach fast. You can teach someone slow to be faster, but not to be faster than somebody fast that has been taught to be faster.

I have to disagree with you here.

Whether or not someone is fast or slow has nothing to do with learning to shoot effectively.

In my experience as a firearms instructor for rifle, pistol and sniper it is MUCH more common in teaching guys to see people that will shoot WAAAAAY too fast for their current skill than it is to see a guy take his time and try and make every round count.

For example....on the sniper range I had the guys (after receiving instruction in proper building a position, NPOA, etc..) lay down behind their rifles and the C.O.F. was 5 rounds in 5 minutes. (We were working towards the goal of all the accuracy you could possibly get from the weapons system.)

I was amazed how even after being told that they will not have saved rounds....they could go over 5 min if needed...almost every guy was done before 1/2 the time was up and most were done within 2 minutes easily.

Only 2 guys took their time and the one that almost went to the entrie 5 minutes had his **** broken by the ones that were done already.

Go downrange and see that there were groups to cry over.

One guy when I asked him about his group(horrible) and (he was the one who was done within 1 minute) his reply was "I like to shoot fast."

*Sigh*

Sometimes its not worth getting out of bed.

Gunny Hathcock was asked once what the greatest attribute a sniper needed .

Out of all the possibilities that exist his response was "Patience...I can teach most anything else to anyone but I can't teach someone to be patient. They're either born with it or acqiure it during their lives but I can't teach it."

I can teach a guy to be fast....I can't teach PATIENCE.

Give me the slow ass patient shooter any day to teach.

By the way ..Mr. "Speed" on the sniper range?

Later in the day could not understand why he wasn't doing so well compared to the 2 guys who were taking their time shooting.

JK

[h2osport]

Shooting long range rifle and USPSA are different. USPSA is about speed, power, and accuracy. Long range rifle can be about speed as well, but is most often about accuracy. Both events require patience in different ways, but both also require perserverence and hard work. You must work hard at both disciplines to achieve great ability.

Which ability, patience or speed, is the better atribute. Probably depends on the teacher.

The great thing about USPSA is that it strives for balance. Speed, accuracy and power. Working on the three makes you a well rounded shooter, and that is where the abilities of USPSA shooters impress others.

Randy

[JimmyZip]

" local hotdog club champion "

I don't think I want to belong to the hotdog club!

[JeffWard]

Here is another angle to consider. How many shooters are out there that could easily be the best in the world if given the opportunity? For that matter who here knows for sure they might be if they could quit work for a few years and get ammo and guns handed to them for nothing? There are most likely some natural born shooters who don't even know USPSA exists. Lets face it this is only a big sport to those of us who shoot it. When I was in the Army me and another drill sergeant buddy used to demonstrate firing positions with the M16. This guy could shoot and never miss 300 yd targets from any position. As fast as the target came up he could put it down. And he was just a hillbilly from the backwoods of West Virginia I think. I told him he should apply to AMU and he thought that would be boring to shoot all the time.

Does anybody really think there are only a handful of drivers in the world that could win a NASCAR race if given the chance?

Another good analogy is golfers. There are guys who play 2-3 times per year, and shoot even par. There's guys who play 3 days per week, and work weekly with a pro, for years... and never break 90.

When shoot at my "normal range", I'm amazed at how bad 99% of the shooters there are. Shooting slow-fire groups at 7 yds of around 24" and WORSE. All over a 14X14 target, with multiple misses. And I mean 4-5 seconds per shot.

I'm an absolute newbie at USPSA (about 4 months), but I've been shooting since I was old enough to hold a gun. I'll be very happy if I qualify at B in the next few months, and maybe make A in a year... but when I shoot at the range, shooting double-tap groups of 20 rounds with 90% in a 6" circle, transitioning between 2 targets, the guys I shoot with are amazed. And I SUCK compared to the good guys in USPSA...

Now... I also feel there are a bunch of guys shooting Open guns who might have issues forced to shoot my M&P fast. No dots, no comps...

I think there should be a "multi-gun match" shooting one stage with an Open blaster, followed by a stage shooting Production... I might shoot my 3.5" M&P Compact better than many Open guys... It would be interesting.

JeffWard

[sslav]

I would like to comment on the talent vs. hard work discussion.

In any game, you need hard work to get into the upper tier. But once there, everyone works just as hard and talent takes over.

On the relative scale, participation in USPSA is minuscule compared to mainstream sports. So we are starting with a smaller talent pool. Out of that pool most will not put in the hard work to get to the point where talent becomes a factor.

[Flexmoney]

But then again I've seen real LEO"s show up at IDPA matches and literally tag every single no-shoot.

Ohio's first Grand Master did that at his first local match...

Somebody ought to tell the new guys which targets to shoot and which ones are penalties.

[SA Friday]

I read a very recent book about a LOT of what you are all talking about. 'Outliers'. I posted about it in the fav books section.

Latent Talent might get you to M faster than someone else, but ultimately it's the 10,000 hours of practice that gets you to GM not talent.

There are lots of mitigating factors that can allow all of those hours of practice to happen. Money IMO IS as factor in this sport and how far one can take their drive to be the best. I also believe access to very high end instruction, weather paid for or mentorship at the local level is another.

Lastly, and probably the most important is the shooter with all of the above factors in their favor having someone there to drive their will to train more, be faster, compete against in a positive way. Look at the best we have and they all has someone with them to train with, give direction, etc.

[Jman]

Yeah. We rock.

[JKSNIPER]

Speed is important....after accuracy.

Gunny:"The only thing worse than a miss is a SLOW miss"

Shooter: "Then how fast should I shoot?"

Gunny:" Let me use small words.....You can't MISS fast enough to win."

Accuracy first, last, always.

Speed will come with a lot of practice.

JK

[Singlestack]

Gotta disagree JK.

Gunny don't know IPSC.

Much easier to teach accuracy than speed IMO.

[h2osport]

What constitutes a miss in USPSA. Is a c zone a miss? D a miss? We can all agree on a mike as a miss, but in USPSA you have to balance speed with the accuracy. No need for 1/2 inch a zone groups on every target(would be nice though).

Depending on the long range rifle match you are shooting, accuracy is also adjustable(?) to the sice of the target. Our long range practical rifle matches have you shooting at steel reactive targets at distances from 350 yards to 900 yards in a wooded setting. The targets are 8X12 to 12X18. Do you need to be able to shoot benchrest accuracy to score the hit? No! But the kicker is there is a time component added in. For basic example you have about 4 minutes to engage 8 targets (2 small at 385yds, 2 medium 1 small at 435 yards, 1 medium at 500, 2 medium at 750). 1 shot per target, all shots are scored, and any shots not taken before par time runs out count as a miss. Starting position is weapon unloaded and everything you need on your person with shooter 6 feet behind the shooting position. You are going to break the shot on the target faster than if you have 20 minutes to take 10 shots at a benchrest competition, but you are not going for 3" 1000 yard groups either.

Agreed that you cannot miss fast enough to win, but I still say USPSA is all about balance. Accuracy, power, and speed if you like, but you still need the balance to win. I have an older friend that has a goal of shooting all A's in the match. Speed is not an issue for him, but neither is winning. I do not know if any major match has been won with all A's, but I think the winner shoots faster than would be required to gain all A's. Has any major match been won with a mike/miss? This is why we call it a sport.

Randy

p.s. I am hoping to run the OP's(VegasOPM) old ptr-91 in the long range rifle course this summer.( with irons on the shorter course ie 150-350yds)

[Flexmoney]

I wonder if there is a running forum... you know, guys that run...hit races on the weekend...

I wonder if they have threads on being able to run faster than cops? (who have to run on the job from time to time...probably a bigger part of the job than shooting)

There is...of course...different styles of running. Tactical running is different !

And, we need to further break that down into running in the LEO role vs. running in the MIL role. And, then, entry team running vs. regular patrol (less specialized) running.

I wonder if their is a forum for those that majored in Communications... Psychology... Driving... Report writing...

Sure, we are going to be better pistol shooters. We have studied and practiced the art of pistol shooting. And, we put the feet to the fire and test such in competition.

[h2osport]

I would like to add that I also think as USPSA shooters that we as a group seem to be more aware of gun safety. A bunch of us were discussing this at practice the other night. It is amazing how many people are lax about gun safety at different shooting venues. I shot skeet for a couple of weeks, and that was enough for me. Shotgun muzzles going everywhere. Have also had oppurtunities to educate individuals at the range that is is not okay to handle a gun when someone is down range. The "it's not loaded" response seems to be good for a lot of folks.

Practicing every week and shooting matches burns gun safety into USPSA shooters. If you do not adhere to the rules strictly, you will get a ticket home for the match, and do it a few times you will probably be asked not to come back.

Last wednesday I was telling the latest story about educating someone about touching their gun while someone was downrange. One of the other fellows at practice related a story about a trip he took to train with a well known shooter/gun builder. While the two of them were practicing another gentleman came up to show the trainer some new neat guns. My friend was stepping back as the guns were swung aroung and showed off. After the guy left with his guns the trainer turned to my friend and said something to the effect that if you do not shoot our sport, you do not adhere as strictly to the gun safety rules.

Sorry for the rant, but I think it applies to how much better USPSA shooters are in general

[G-ManBart]

I never said the odds aren't stocked against them.

But by and large, especially in shooting, desire is what it takes - not talent. Also, your example doesn't really take talent into consideration at all Bart. In the case of Nascar it's seems to be more like being born into royalty than born with a certain aptitude.

No, I'm saying that desire is absolutely a huge factor, probably the biggest, when we're talking shooting. Sure, there will be some exceptions, but the access and entrey expenses are relatively small. If someone can scratch together a grand they can buy enough equipment to get started. If you really want it, you'll get a second, third etc job to pay for it.

NASCAR is a LOT about being born into it at this point. The kids trying to get the top jobs are in their mid to late teens and have been driving for 5-10 years by the time they get a shot at something big. If you don't have a family that's into it, or just happen to live where it's popular there's no way you're going to be a NASCAR driver on TV. I don't know many 6 to 10 year olds that have enough income to pay for even a go-kart much less something bigger (and yes, lots of them start out in karts). There are some developmental programs now, trying to find the best, but you have to have racing credentials to even be considered for them....catch-22. You need to have racing experience to get a chance and you need a chance to get racing experience

[Neomet]

Ohio's first Grand Master did that at his first local match...

Somebody ought to tell the new guys which targets to shoot and which ones are penalties.

To butcher an old saying.. "Kill them all, let the RO sort them out".

[dcarter]

I wonder if there is a running forum... you know, guys that run...hit races on the weekend...

I wonder if they have threads on being able to run faster than cops? (who have to run on the job from time to time...probably a bigger part of the job than shooting)

There is...of course...different styles of running. Tactical running is different !

And, we need to further break that down into running in the LEO role vs. running in the MIL role. And, then, entry team running vs. regular patrol (less specialized) running.

I wonder if their is a forum for those that majored in Communications... Psychology... Driving... Report writing...

Sure, we are going to be better pistol shooters. We have studied and practiced the art of pistol shooting. And, we put the feet to the fire and test such in competition.

Yes, That was my point in my post. You can't really compare one to the other. It has to be taken in context to the "game" being played. I said it before and I'll say it again, for the most part a USPSA shooter will outshoot most leo's (even SWAT). But you put a USPSA competitor with 9 other guys trying to enter a house with some guy hold up with hostages and the USPSA guy is going to have some major issues.

[Chris iliff]

USPSA competitors are the best all around handgun folks in the world. Who do other folks go to for training? Well,.....smart folks anyways.

[38supPat]

Speed will come with a lot of practice.

JK

No, it doesn't. Not in IPSC. Speed is a byproduct of efficiency....but you must be aggressive in your search for speed. Shooters that are "fast" want to be fast. At first they flail a lot trying too hard to be fast, but if they are intelligent and driven enough to see past their ego, they will refine their techniques enough to be truly quick.

[Jman]

Speed is important....after accuracy.

Gunny:"The only thing worse than a miss is a SLOW miss"

Shooter: "Then how fast should I shoot?"

Gunny:" Let me use small words.....You can't MISS fast enough to win."

Accuracy first, last, always.

Speed will come with a lot of practice.

JK

I think this is exactly correct in real world rifle shooting.

Our pistol game is a bit different. Shooter A draws and places two deltas. One at 2 o'clock and one twenty inches away at 7 o'clock for 4 points. Ugly. Does it in 1.3 seconds. Shooter B draws and puts two an inch apart in the center of the A zone for 10 points. Beautiful. Does it in 3.5 seconds.

"Ugly dog" shooter wins with a hit factor of 3.0769 to 2.8571. Freak speed and hits, both pretty AND fugly ones win this game every single time.

That's why USPSA shooters are as good as they are.

Jim

Edited some now that I'm sober.

Edited March 30, 2009 by JimmyM

[Jake Di Vita]

Freak speed and ugly hits win this game every single time.

....I'm going to pretend that I didn't actually just read that.

[j1b]

Freak speed and ugly hits win this game every single time.

Not there with ya.

Never seen a national title won that way. Don't think I ever will.

J

[Jman]

OK, maybe I'll omit "ugly" hits. Still, speed rules IMO.

Jim

[SharonAnne9x23]

back in the late 80s and early 90s I was my clubs LE liason. I would go out and shoot with the LEOs once in a while. One time the largest PD was doing evaluations buy setting up a field course consisting of pepperpoppers and bowling pins. A Sgt I knew invited me to shoot. I did not have my gear so he loaned his duty rig to me. I had him review the pistol with me because I had never shot a Beretta 92. After a couple of minutes to go over the controls and a few dry fires I loaded up. On the start signal I took off. At one point I shot dry and stepped out of the doorway to reload, then stepped back in to engage targets. The Sgt told me I was the ONLY one to take cover while reloading. My time was 5th fastest and less than 4 seconds from the fastest. My time was just over one minute IIRC. When I asked if I could get my 1911 and do it again I was told 'up yours'. Little did I know that one of those big cops in the blue jump suit was the Chief. I was and am a middle C class in open.

[38supPat]

Speed is important....after accuracy.

Gunny:"The only thing worse than a miss is a SLOW miss"

Shooter: "Then how fast should I shoot?"

Gunny:" Let me use small words.....You can't MISS fast enough to win."

Accuracy first, last, always.

Speed will come with a lot of practice.

JK

I think this is exactly correct in real world rifle shooting.

Our pistol game is a bit different. Shooter A draws and places two deltas. One at 2 o'clock and one twenty inches away at 7 o'clock for 4 points. Ugly. Does it in 1.3 seconds. Shooter B draws and puts two an inch apart in the center of the A zone for 10 points. Beautiful. Does it in 3.5 seconds.

"Ugly dog" shooter wins with a hit factor of 3.0769 to 2.8571. Freak speed and ugly hits win this game every single time.

That's why USPSA shooters are as good as they are.

Jim

You forgot about shooter "C", the GM, who shoots it in 1.1 seconds with 2 A's for a hf of 9.0909 placing the other two shooters in D class