00bullitt Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I was able to trick those boxes into not flicking my safety off. I put an M&P in there and confused the hell out of every box at the match. Meanwhile....they got all my competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHamp Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Ok, I'll be your huckleberry..... I can assure EVERYONE that our pistol boxes are not magic, they are standard issue plastic. Totally inanimate and not the least inclined to knock your safety off. The grounding gun apparatus debate will continue long after I retire, what is right, what works, what does not that will never end. What I can tell you with all certainty is the box does not matter. It can not take your safety off, if it could your staged gun would be off safe, and it would happen to everyone. BUT if the box did take your safety off, why did it choose you........ As for the RO touched my gun argument I get it. But really, REALLY, do you think so low of the RO's that you feel they are vindictive enough to switch your safety off and then DQ you... those Bastards, off with there heads! Seriously can you be more vain? Take yourself out of the equation, try to be emotionally detached does that make sense? If you touched the gun and it went off safe would you DQ the shooter? Do you really feel that anyone who volunteers their time to the running of this sport would do that? Or is it more likely you failed to properly safe or properly place your safed gun. Just asking. As the MD I hope my RM will adjust staff as needed. The best laid plans on paper often fall short in practice. If you are not maximizing throughput while enforcing safety constantly then why are you there! Bottom line is match administration is fluid, you can control the flow or you can get caught in the flow, we choose control. As far as the night fire, I would not have shot. If you step to the line and accept the conditions, accept the results. Rules are rules, we can adjust them but not after the shooting starts. It is our duty to enforce those rules fairly without regard to competitor. The fact is that a DQ is a SEE (Serious Emotional Event) as such we tend to see in our minds eye the way we think it should have happened, it is not a lie, it is not even conscious, but it is also not totally accurate. On the other hand we have the RO who is trusted to watch your actions and keep you safe, a DQ for him may be a gut wrenching experience, but it does not cloud his minds eye. Unfortunately some RO's are too nice and like to give the shooter a way out like "I saw you put it on safe". Even if he did, you are responsible for SAFELY placing it in the designated area (see first para about magic box). Why where there so many DQ's on Stage 7, seriously? It gave you a lot of S##@^ to think about and a great number melted down. You want an easy match, this isn't it. You want a field of mindless hosing, this isn't it. Never will be. The shirt is funny.... BigHamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Sooooo....Hamp.......next year????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Hamp, Thank you. We always say that the RO does NOT DQ the shooter, he is meerly the messenger, it is the shooter that DQs the shooter. It absolutely sucks to have to tell a shooter they have DQed. I don't think that any RO would last long in this sport were he to be a Range Nazi and DQ shooters for the joy he got fro it. The RM, MD and arb committees would put an end to it. What I usually have seen is ROs that are far too lenient. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I would like to thank the new command of the AMU for a great weekend (and then some) for another great FB3G. Hopefully since some of you think the 5th wasn't Fabulous there will be a super 6th !!!!! I have been an extremely lucky person to have been able to attend and be a range officer at all but the second FB3G. Each year there are a few DQs but the fun had by most out shines the other. This year I had the pleasure of being RO on stage 2, we had our share of DQs also. One for AD (OBVIOUSLY), and 180. I suppose we could have gotten a few more for 180, but when I yelled muzzle all but 1 immediately responded and that is what I was really looking for. Moving against the grain is hard, and many of you chose to do so. It was your choice, and we were looking for the blatant muzzle violations, and I in particular was trying to catch the "close" ones and keep them from going too far, thus the reason most every squad heard "MUZZLE" at least once. The Range officers attempt to do the best they can with what they have to work with. If you don't like what you see or get, please address the CRO on the stage first, then it will go up the chain as needed. for after action suggestions, please put it in writing to Sgt Hampton or Sgt Johnson. They will look at all complaints and suggestions and give them their due attention. Having said all that. I would like to thank all the competitors that came through stage 2 ( the 3rd ID) for their courtesy and professionalism. I also would like to thank Elizabeth Peeler, Lee King, Andy Horner, Mike Helms, Matt Damon, Ben Fortin and the Ranger Prospects that staffed Stage 2 for making it an easy and efficient stage to run. CHEERS and God bless. Next year, you can come to the Mississippi 3-gun Challenge and get a tune up for FB3G 2010. Then you can make it back to Ft. Benning and try again. Merry Christmas, see you next year on the range. Hopalong (Sam Keen) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbmd Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Starting in the harness, using all three guns and ending the stage with six rollover prone shots - a position most shooters never shoot, let alone practice.You guys should thank God you shot stage 7 after we did. Our first stage Thursday Am at 0-dark-thirty in the mud. After the third shot I was blind. It was "painful" scraping sandy mud off of a $1200 lens and prescription glasses so I could see targets! Mike, I thought you were a Marine.....not Coast Guard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
senior frog Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. it is the shooters responsibility to make sure the pistol is on safe. the RO is on the stage for a reason. to make that happens. if the RO says your gone then your gone. i dont think there is a single RO out there that would ever purposely swith your pistol to fire just to DQ you for the fun of it. the RO is doing his job and you fail to trust him. if you break the 180 are you going to stop yourself? nope the RO is going too. if you dont trust him are you going to say i want to visually inspect myself breaking the 180? nope dont think so. if the RO says you pistol is unsafe then the pistol is unsafe. because obviously the other 250 competitors made sure their pistol was safe................................................ hmmm. Sfc Hampton and the rest of the guys put on an excellent match and you should be thanking them for it not yelling about your on unsafeties. And about the shooting in the dark, you have the choice to not shoot. they can NOT make you shoot if you feel the conditions are not fair (darkness). but like he said if you decide you want to shoot then the same rules still apply. and i agree the shirts were very funny. senior frog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rduckwor Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The shirt is funny....BigHamp Yeah the shirt WAS funny. Almost worth the price of admission to get that shirt. Great match from a noob. Thanks guys. RMD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpd54 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) The shirt was funny as hell. Glad I didn't get one. One of the guys I came down with DQ'd on stage 7 and got his shirt (I think the first one). It does suck when u get DQ'd (happened to me last year at IN Sectional). But the bottom line in any match is the SHOOTER is responsible for his/her weapons. I for one was happy to see the consistency the match staff showed. They didn't cut anyone a break based on who they were, as it should be. The easiest solution to avoid the whole thumb safety thing is simple, buy a Glock Thanks BigHamp for a great match. You can't please everyone. If you don't like the rules, don't come. Someone else will be happy to take your slot. Edited December 10, 2009 by xpd54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaoler Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Why where there so many DQ's on Stage 7, seriously? It gave you a lot of S##@^ to think about and a great number melted down. You want an easy match, this isn't it. You want a field of mindless hosing, this isn't it. Never will be. 'Look at it this way... Out of 274 shooters, 260 managed not to get DQ'd (If my count is correct..) The shirt is funny....BigHamp No, the shirt is hilarious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Praying Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Well with all of the complaining about stage 7's DISHONEST RO's and DISHONEST BOXES, I'm sure their won't be a #6 now. I have the same kind of boxes that I keep my brass in. I couldn't help myself. I tryed it at least 10 times with my open and limited guns and could not get the safety to disengage. I thought the DQ shirts were cool too, but I'm glad I didn't get one. Aaron FORT BENNING 3 GUN CHALLENGE #6? PLEASE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 +1 on using a Glock for 3Gun. The safety is on---when you take your finger off the trigger. I thought the hardest part of Stage 7 was getting out of the harness. Was a complicated stage, must have done thirty walk throughs - mentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 +1 on using a Glock for 3Gun. The safety is on---when you take your finger off the trigger. I thought the hardest part of Stage 7 was getting out of the harness. Was a complicated stage, must have done thirty walk throughs - mentally. IMO the hardest part was not engaging the feet to move forward before the harness was fully relleased. I saw a couple of shooters who failed to do so and boy was it ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uumikew Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) +1 on using a Glock for 3Gun. The safety is on---when you take your finger off the trigger. I thought the hardest part of Stage 7 was getting out of the harness. Was a complicated stage, must have done thirty walk throughs - mentally. IMO the hardest part was not engaging the feet to move forward before the harness was fully relleased. I saw a couple of shooters who failed to do so and boy was it ugly. I resemble that comment. . I had the large ring in the harness loop over a mag and then did my best tarzan swing imitation! I got both feet at least a foot off the deck! I was talking funny for the next 30 mins or so. Once again, a GREAT match. AMU please ignore the critics, they will forget the bad memories soon enough and remember all the good ones instead. Here's hoping for a FB3G 2010! Thanks. Edited December 10, 2009 by uumikew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee King Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The same type of box was on Stage 1. How many DQ'd there? Awesome match! Stage 2 was a breeze to work thanks to Sam, Andy, Elizabeth, Matt, Ben, Michael, Jason, and John. Definitely throwing my vote in for #6! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Ok, I'll be your huckleberry.....I can assure EVERYONE that our pistol boxes are not magic, they are standard issue plastic. Totally inanimate and not the least inclined to knock your safety off. The grounding gun apparatus debate will continue long after I retire, what is right, what works, what does not that will never end. What I can tell you with all certainty is the box does not matter. It can not take your safety off, if it could your staged gun would be off safe, and it would happen to everyone. BUT if the box did take your safety off, why did it choose you........ As for the RO touched my gun argument I get it. But really, REALLY, do you think so low of the RO's that you feel they are vindictive enough to switch your safety off and then DQ you... those Bastards, off with there heads! Seriously can you be more vain? Take yourself out of the equation, try to be emotionally detached does that make sense? If you touched the gun and it went off safe would you DQ the shooter? Do you really feel that anyone who volunteers their time to the running of this sport would do that? Or is it more likely you failed to properly safe or properly place your safed gun. Just asking. As the MD I hope my RM will adjust staff as needed. The best laid plans on paper often fall short in practice. If you are not maximizing throughput while enforcing safety constantly then why are you there! Bottom line is match administration is fluid, you can control the flow or you can get caught in the flow, we choose control. As far as the night fire, I would not have shot. If you step to the line and accept the conditions, accept the results. Rules are rules, we can adjust them but not after the shooting starts. It is our duty to enforce those rules fairly without regard to competitor. The fact is that a DQ is a SEE (Serious Emotional Event) as such we tend to see in our minds eye the way we think it should have happened, it is not a lie, it is not even conscious, but it is also not totally accurate. On the other hand we have the RO who is trusted to watch your actions and keep you safe, a DQ for him may be a gut wrenching experience, but it does not cloud his minds eye. Unfortunately some RO's are too nice and like to give the shooter a way out like "I saw you put it on safe". Even if he did, you are responsible for SAFELY placing it in the designated area (see first para about magic box). Why where there so many DQ's on Stage 7, seriously? It gave you a lot of S##@^ to think about and a great number melted down. You want an easy match, this isn't it. You want a field of mindless hosing, this isn't it. Never will be. The shirt is funny.... BigHamp I don't think anyone here is implying that the RO intentionally or unintentionally for that matter disengaged the safety on the weapon in question. They did however deviate from the normal procedure by handling the grounded weapon before the shooter came to clear it. So instead of a clear cut safety violation and DQ we have a DQ based on faith and trust of a third party. With this crowd and this match it wouldn't matter if the RO in question had a halo and wings with a choir singing everytime their name was mentioned, there would still be doubt. That aside, it was a great match. The food was the best of all five by far. The stages were a great mix. I have heard from others that it was less difficult than some previous, but I think that had to do with the fact there was no tape/reset to drain physical resources. Thanks to you, the whole AMU and everyone involved. All the best for the Holidays and beyond, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I will state that I have no doubt, none what so ever that the ROs acted in good faith and if they were even the slightest bit unsure that the gun was actually not on safe, they would not have issued the DQ. There is a simple answer here. DON"T DO DUMB THINGS. Make sure you have safed your gun and placed it in a manner that insures the Safety is ON. Verify it is ON. You want that extra 0.073 seconds off your run, you take the chance of a short match. I would have any one of the people that ROd me at this match RO me anywhere. NO EXCEPTIONS. Hamp and all the rest, you done good. Don't let the whiners win. "Illegitima Non Carborundum" Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack T Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 +1 on using a Glock for 3Gun. The safety is on---when you take your finger off the trigger. I thought the hardest part of Stage 7 was getting out of the harness. Was a complicated stage, must have done thirty walk throughs - mentally. IMO the hardest part was not engaging the feet to move forward before the harness was fully relleased. I saw a couple of shooters who failed to do so and boy was it ugly. Man, it looked cold too. Couldn't make it this year, but with my skinny butt being from Florida where it has been in the 80s, all I would have been able to do is shiver real fast!! Looked like a great match. Congratulations to Taran and Bruce. Looked like there were a lot of guys in the hunt this year. Barry is definitely knocking on the door Best to ya, Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 "Illegitima Non Carborundum"Jim Jim, I think that's what I ate on Sunday night at the mexican restaurant down the street from Texas Roadhouse. It was very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpd54 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 They did however deviate from the normal procedure by handling the grounded weapon before the shooter came to clear it. I've been to numerous matches where the guns were cleared by ROs. Speeds up the process and never has been a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack T Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Come on guys, everyone got their bitching out of the way, time to move forward! JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whiskey1 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I heard several people who got the DQ shirts thought they were funny, but other shooters who got DQd don't have to agree. It is America and we are allowed to disagree. I do think they helped to take the sting out for most folks like they were intended to. When I get an embarrassing and expensive DQ somewhere I hope that I get to see my pistol before it has been handled by others so that I KNOW it was my fault. I'll bet 99% of you feel the same way. Anyone who touches a firearm CAN disengage a safety. Whether they would do it intentionally or not is irrelevant. I personally don't believe that anyone intentionally tried to DQ anyone. I know both of the CROs on stage 7 and in my book thier integrity is aboe reproach. There was quite a bit of man power thrown at that stage to get it back on schedule and i'm sure all of those men are also men of integrity who did not intentionally disengage any safeties. This could have happened at any match and it is unfortunate that it has become an issue at this one. I know Sgt.s Hapmton, Johnson, and Horner are 100% focused on putting together the best match possible for everyone involved and I for one do not like the fact that any of them are put in the position that they feel the need to defend either stage design, dump boxes, ROs, T-shirts or the soldiers working the stage. I also do not like the fact that many of us on this board feel the need to take sides or call names ("whiners"- c'mon guys) when someone offers a hopefully constructive comment. I do not believe that the AMU will base their decision to do a 6th match on what we say on this board. I'll bet that decision is based on things like available budget, manpower, their pre-existing training and match schedule, and whether this event helps them meet thier official mission. Let's tell it like it is. For the vast majority this match was fun, challenging, and rewarding. For something less than 10 percent it was not. If we can figure out a way to handle match disqualifications better in the future let's do that and move on. I have friends on both sides of this non-argument and hope to get to shoot with all of them many more times in the next several years. Off soapbox. I thought stage design was very creative. The ProAm like shotgun stage was very cool and I was fortunate enough to get to watch Jerry Mickulek put on a clinic on that stage. Stage eight with the many different ways to shoot the stage was a great design. I'm still not sure I picked the right option. Not such a big fan of secret stages in a match of this size because competitors will share information with their buddies. Even if it is something as vague as "be sure to go to that first window on the left" or "be sure to look down". Props for all of the stages were awesome just like we have all come to expect at Ft. Benning. I could take or leave the parachute harness, probably because I did not have a problem getting out of it. I could not believe the awesome tac-optics prize tables. Guys who finished in the 30s picked up guns! Amazing. I am humbled by the efforts of the AMU and I am honored to live in a country where civilian gun owners and the military not only get along but hang out and shoot together. Try that somewhere else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Well now I have got over the jet lag I would like to say that I had a great time at FB3G and despite the fact I shot like a complete donkeys ass and testicular challanged primates could have done better than me in so many ways, I still enjoyed the match. What I didnt enjoy was the any of the DQ's on stage 7 - in fact I despised myself when the ROs had to DQ people because I was one of the ROs on stage 7. What I can say hand on heart is that in no instance EVER on that stage did I or the other ROs who are very well known and respected multigun shooters, ever, act in a way that was to the disadvantage to the shooter and in all the instances where people were very unfortunate and got DQ'ed it was simply the correct call, despite it sucking each and every time. I know for myself I didnt travel 10,000 miles to DQ anybody, I have RO'ed in National and International IPSC matches for 6 years and have never DQ'ed anybody - it happens at major 3 gun matches because the stages are technical and they are not easy - mistakes happen on a more regular as there are more things that can go wrong. I have been quoted as telling shooters that I indeed saw them apply their safety prior to them putting it in the box - I said this to more than one shooter as I indeed saw them do this and it re-assured them that they at least tried to do the right thing and didnt have a mad second imagining they did something when they did not. I am certain in all of these DQs that the shooter did apply safe, and I am also certain the safe disengaged in the process of putting it in the box. What I am also certain of was the fact that NO RO ever, ever, dis-engaged the safe when looking or examining the gun to make sure it was safe. Shooters were pissed off as their guns were touched before they got to see it and had to rely on the RO's word and competence in looking at the safety system on a 1911 style pistol - I can understand that, and had it been me I would have wanted to see it in situe untouched so I could be re-assured in my mind that it was my fault and not a basic mistake by the RO - but sadly that was the world we were living in on running that stage. I am sorry to anyone who Stage 7 bit and hope to see them at the next FB3G, but rest assured we did our best to stop this happening to people. When I was pre-loading 1911 style shooters I even went to the length of warning them about this very thing - hopefully that managed to prevent the DQ numbers increasing to some extent. Anyway enough about that - the Pre Ft Benning Party was great and it was good getting to hang out, drink, eat and shoot with the guys - thanks Jeffy. The match was excellent, did I mention I sucked donkleys ass, it was great to see all the old friends and catch up, and make new amigos. Big congrats to Tye Gentry, excellent shooting by one of the most genuine and nice guys in 3 gun. And a big thank you to the AMU and staff who made this happen. Happy Holidays and hope to see Ya'll in 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Mike, thanks for helping me put my pin back in my Benelli. It's at a place getting fixed. You were great under beaucoup pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack T Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I would like to see another thread started to address this issue and maybe grow from it for the sport as a whole. I don't agree with a MATCH DQ for a safety violation, zero the stage at worst, but not go home. Tell me what the difference between a Glock in a box ( ) and a 1911 in a box with the weapon off safe is? You still have to pull the trigger. As long as the box is physically secure in a box facing a berm, the weapon is not unsafe until someone touches it. A long gun in a dump barrel facing the ground with the safety off is not a safed weapon, but it IS in a safe condition. When you go back to clear the shooter, no one is down range, so what is really the problem? I know rules are rules, but we are the ones who make up the rules, so let's see how we can make it better. Maybe for the people who live in fear, just treat every weapon as an abandoned weapon, mag out, chamber empty. JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now