Feeling the Trigger Reset

[mark dye]

I think I am going to stir up a hornets nest here!

When someone recently asked me how the trigger reset felt on my personal gun...I just responded: yes, it resets every time I let go of it!!! I personally almost never feel the reset point on a trigger. The only time I really do feel the trigger reset is when I am doing some relatively precise shooting such as a 50 yard standards or the 25 yard bianchi plate rack. I have made it this far (mid level master) by spending my time worrying about pulling the trigger consistently, feeling it break, and calling the shot by correlating that break with the relationship of the sights when the gun fires. I pull the trigger...let go of the trigger...repeat as necessary!! I have always just listened with mild curiosity when I hear other shooters talk about how important the length and strength of the reset in their gun are to their shooting. Todd Jarrett told me last year that his finger often hits the front of the trigger guard when he releases the trigger. Videos of TGO that I have watched reveal similar technique...his finger coming fully off the trigger between shots. Conversely, a good freind of mine who is a pretty good GM shooter is obsessed with where the reset is and how it feels on all of his triggers. He is often more worried about how the trigger resets than how it breaks. Obviously what we have here is a difference in technique. Am I missing the boat, or are the "reset shooters" needlessly worring about the wrong portion of the trigger stroke????

As a full time professional gunsmith, I certainly want to give my customers what they want. I never heard anyone talking about trigger reset 6 or 7 years ago. At first, most of the "reset shooters" that I talked to were Glock shooters. Since I don't work on Glocks, I just dismissed it as a foible peculiar to that gun. Since I do a fair number of M&P trigger jobs, the reset is a definite area of contention. Recently I have been seeing more and more customers talking about the reset even on their 1911's (which is largely controlled by the position of the overtravel stop). I will continue to try to give folks the kind of trigger that they want, it just becomes more difficult when there is such a difference in trigger technique.

I would love to hear some other thoughts on this topic.

Mark Dye

[Greg Bell]

I'm no master but for me I only slow down my trigger manipulations enough to feel for it on longer more precise shots. I shoot a Glock primarily.

[Duane Thomas]

I think it's very important to know where the reset is, and how hard you can prep the trigger before the gun fires. However, the place to pay attention to that, IHMO, at least for me, is in dry fire. So that when the time to fire live ammo comes, I can forget about everything but "just shooting." My muscle memory and subconscious have already internalized the reset, so I don't need to think about it.

Having said that, I do focus a fair amount during the shooting, not on hitting the reset point per se, but taking up the slack and prepping the trigger before a shot, especially on the draw and when transitioning the gun between targets.

[G-ManBart]

Our guys at Quantico have a pretty neat machine that hooks up to a gun that has a pressure sensor device attached to the trigger. Essentially, you start the computer, plug the gun into the machine and shoot. The computer screen displays a graph that tracks the exact movement of the trigger over time. You see where the shooter takes up the slack, starts the press through the resistance, when the sear breaks, and how the reset happens. It looks like an inverted V with the top being when the trigger stops at the end of the press and the bottom right leg is where the trigger stops in it's forward travel during the rest (it sounds complicated but is extremely simple when you look at it). When I was there in Dec they put several instructors on it to demonstrate. All the full-time instructors have historical graphs stored. They've also put top-level competitive shooters on it.....guys like TGO, TJ etc who have been graphed. With all of those people, not a single person has ever, ever, ever been able to break a shot and go exactly to the reset point or even just slightly past it. Only one or two out of hundreds tested even get into the area of half way between the reset point and the trigger fully forward. Most folks, including myself, come all the way off the trigger or at the very least let it get all the way forward before starting another press.

The only way you can take a shot and go directly to the reset point is by an extremely slow release that takes literally half a second or more. Obviously, that would be fine for bullseye, but not for what we do.

The guy that developed this was national PPC champion back in the 80s and has multiple state PPC championships, so he knows what he's doing. Obviously this is used most often with Glocks, but they also have match .22s, 1911s, Sigs etc with the trigger sensor mounted on them. Lots of people will call BS when it's described to them, so they go on the box and very quickly SEE that they don't do what they think they do and they aren't capable of doing it other than during an exceedingly slow release of the trigger, which is simply wasted time in any sort of shooting beyond the very slowest.

[VegasOPM]

I can't say that I have any idea of the reset when I am shooting in a match. I do know, from videos, that my finger remains on the trigger- but I can't tell if I ride the reset.

[BillGarlandJr]

I used to be obsessed with finding the trigger reset for every shot whether the targets were close or far. I managed to be fairly successful pulling the trigger that way. What would get me though is I would catch myself releasing the trigger beyond the reset and I would become so distracted by trying to "fix" my trigger press that my shooting would become too mechanical and deliberate and ultimately it would cost me time and points on a stage. So, this last September I took a class from TJ. He advocated releasing the trigger all the way out...even taking the trigger finger off the trigger completely to reset it. I was reluctant to accept this technique. Then I was watching an old Shooting USA and TGO was being interviewed. He said shooting is simply the matter of finding the target, lining the sights up on the target, and keeping them aligned on target till the shot is fired. That got me thinking...who cares how the trigger is pulled as long as the sights remain correctly aligned on the target till the shot is fired. Since then I have stopped worrying about how I am pressing the trigger. Instead, I have increased my focus on the front sight. By watching the front sight more closely I am better able to call my shots. I have been faster and more accurate....and in the rare instance I fire a bad shot I have been able to identify it when it was fired and make it up quickly.

So, is there a right way or a wrong way to press the trigger? Is riding the reset better, or is releasing the trigger all the way out and sweeping it through the pressure wall better? I think the anwer is they are both just fine as long as the shooter is able to keep the sights aligned till the shot breaks.

If I am not mistaken, BE commented on this subject in an issue of Front Sight not too long ago...worth checking out!

[Jman]

No idea. I slap the crap out of it. I'm completely screwed if I have to involve the tiny "flick" muscles of the trigger finger. Bunch of bullets in my mags and each require their own separate trigger prep and press to go were I need them to. Just me though.

Jim

[sslav]

The only way you can take a shot and go directly to the reset point is by an extremely slow release that takes literally half a second or more. Obviously, that would be fine for bullseye, but not for what we do.

I am not a master or even close. Shooting at 10 yards I have splits of .25-.3 if I go any faster I can not reliably put them all in the A-zone. But at that speed it feels like I am taking the trigger to the reset and no further on each and every shot. At least that is what I do in practice.

[G-ManBart]

The only way you can take a shot and go directly to the reset point is by an extremely slow release that takes literally half a second or more. Obviously, that would be fine for bullseye, but not for what we do.

I am not a master or even close. Shooting at 10 yards I have splits of .25-.3 if I go any faster I can not reliably put them all in the A-zone. But at that speed it feels like I am taking the trigger to the reset and no further on each and every shot. At least that is what I do in practice.

That's pretty much the same thing that everyone else said until they saw what they really do on the graph. I think when I tried it they were up to something 255 instructors and competitive shooter guests (the guys like TGO) so it's not like they've put 10K on it, but not a single person has come even close. Granted, I already knew I either come all the way off the trigger or simply ride it out to it's fully forward position, but plenty of others swore they could go right to reset.

I guess it's possible that there's somebody out there that's the statistical anomaly, but it doesn't look too likely from what I've seen so far

[SA Friday]

I think the handgun really dictates this for me. I shoot glocks and 1911/2011's and their triggers are different (stating the obvious to this crowd). With a SA only gun, slapping the trigger is less critical IMO, because of the lack of pre and over travel. I don't ride the 1911/2011 triggers hardly at all. With the DAO trigger, if you come all the way off the trigger every time you are wasting a lot of time. I ride the glock trigger a lot more and subconsciously register the reset. I know I do this for two reasons. I've recently had a 6+month lay off from shooting and can feel diminished sensitivity to the reset. Also, my duty weapon is a Sig P228 and it has a false reset. You feel the reset and if you pull the trigger at that spot you pull on air. The Sig's trigger mechanism doesn't actually reset until the trigger goes all the way to it's DA stopping point even though you feel a reset before that. I have a huge tendency to short-stroke the trigger when shooting the Sig fast. This can only happen if I'm controlling the reset movement (subconsciously). If I was slapping it, it wouldn't matter.

G-man, I would love to see your machine's data based on gun design vs shooter. I would suspect you could see differences in trigger pull based on gun design. Some guns trigger mechanisims are just easier/more adapted to slapping than others.

[Rocket35]

I think target distance makes quite a difference as well. On close targets, 5 yards or closer, I tend to slap the trigger. But longer range targets I emloy feeling the reset. You can actually hear it quite evidently on my videos. For me, it is a far more accurate way of manipulating the trigger.

[tightloop]

Our guys at Quantico have a pretty neat machine that hooks up to a gun that has a pressure sensor device attached to the trigger. Essentially, you start the computer, plug the gun into the machine and shoot. The computer screen displays a graph that tracks the exact movement of the trigger over time. You see where the shooter takes up the slack, starts the press through the resistance, when the sear breaks, and how the reset happens. It looks like an inverted V with the top being when the trigger stops at the end of the press and the bottom right leg is where the trigger stops in it's forward travel during the rest (it sounds complicated but is extremely simple when you look at it). When I was there in Dec they put several instructors on it to demonstrate. All the full-time instructors have historical graphs stored. They've also put top-level competitive shooters on it.....guys like TGO, TJ etc who have been graphed. With all of those people, not a single person has ever, ever, ever been able to break a shot and go exactly to the reset point or even just slightly past it. Only one or two out of hundreds tested even get into the area of half way between the reset point and the trigger fully forward. Most folks, including myself, come all the way off the trigger or at the very least let it get all the way forward before starting another press.

The only way you can take a shot and go directly to the reset point is by an extremely slow release that takes literally half a second or more. Obviously, that would be fine for bullseye, but not for what we do.

The guy that developed this was national PPC champion back in the 80s and has multiple state PPC championships, so he knows what he's doing. Obviously this is used most often with Glocks, but they also have match .22s, 1911s, Sigs etc with the trigger sensor mounted on them. Lots of people will call BS when it's described to them, so they go on the box and very quickly SEE that they don't do what they think they do and they aren't capable of doing it other than during an exceedingly slow release of the trigger, which is simply wasted time in any sort of shooting beyond the very slowest.

Thanks for posting this statement...for the longest, I read all the posts about people feeling the reset and wanted to call BS, but had no actual proof they did not feel it....Now I do...there is way too much going on mechanically with the pistol and too much going on with the shooter to feel the reset engagement of a 1911...

[HSMITH]

I want to let go of the trigger completely and then come back in as hard as I can and as fast as I can without breaking a shot, when I do that I can hit anything I can see.

[-JQ-]

I think the handgun really dictates this for me. I shoot glocks and 1911/2011's and their triggers are different (stating the obvious to this crowd). With a SA only gun, slapping the trigger is less critical IMO, because of the lack of pre and over travel. I don't ride the 1911/2011 triggers hardly at all. With the DAO trigger, if you come all the way off the trigger every time you are wasting a lot of time. I ride the glock trigger a lot more and subconsciously register the reset. I know I do this for two reasons. I've recently had a 6+month lay off from shooting and can feel diminished sensitivity to the reset. Also, my duty weapon is a Sig P228 and it has a false reset. You feel the reset and if you pull the trigger at that spot you pull on air. The Sig's trigger mechanism doesn't actually reset until the trigger goes all the way to it's DA stopping point even though you feel a reset before that. I have a huge tendency to short-stroke the trigger when shooting the Sig fast. This can only happen if I'm controlling the reset movement (subconsciously). If I was slapping it, it wouldn't matter.

G-man, I would love to see your machine's data based on gun design vs shooter. I would suspect you could see differences in trigger pull based on gun design. Some guns trigger mechanisims are just easier/more adapted to slapping than others.

SA-

Have you tried sigs SRT (short reset trigger) or gray guns version? Not sure if you have that option for duty but it is definitely shorter and the SRT is a factory option/upgrade.

Does the question of the OP differ when shooting rifle? My gold trigger is easy to feel the reset when at the range but I haven't shot it in a match yet....

[Lee King]

I can tell you when I'm running a stage and get all keyed up and DON'T reset it!! Happened at the Fl Open this past weekend. Got to the end of the stage and was all jacked up on adrenalin and forgot to let the trigger out. My brain said "Empty RELOAD!!" I never even pulled the trigger. Just squeezed the whole gun with it pinned back. It got worse from there but...

[Silver_Surfer]

I can tell you when I'm running a stage and get all keyed up and DON'T reset it!! Happened at the Fl Open this past weekend. Got to the end of the stage and was all jacked up on adrenalin and forgot to let the trigger out. My brain said "Empty RELOAD!!" I never even pulled the trigger. Just squeezed the whole gun with it pinned back. It got worse from there but...

Trigger Frezee! Bet your buddies had a blast with that one.

[Jake Di Vita]

While shooting at speed, I have never consciously recognized the reset point of a trigger.

[SA Friday]

Have you tried sigs SRT (short reset trigger) or gray guns version? Not sure if you have that option for duty but it is definitely shorter and the SRT is a factory option/upgrade.

Couldn't. M-11, duty weapon. Have been told it makes a lot of difference though.

I agree with Jake, I have never consciously felt the trigger reset at speed, but subconsciously I know I am registering something because of my experience with my M-11. It's a possibility it's distance to reset vs the feel of the reset, but I know I'm not releasing the trigger completely.

1911/2011, ya I'm slappin away.

[Lee King]

I can tell you when I'm running a stage and get all keyed up and DON'T reset it!! Happened at the Fl Open this past weekend. Got to the end of the stage and was all jacked up on adrenalin and forgot to let the trigger out. My brain said "Empty RELOAD!!" I never even pulled the trigger. Just squeezed the whole gun with it pinned back. It got worse from there but...

Trigger Frezee! Bet your buddies had a blast with that one.

The "got worse from there" part was, this was the last target and I already hit it once. So I slapped a new mag in... in the process it dawned on me I just trigger froze.. as I brought the gun up THAT mag fell out.. but I still have 1 in the chamber so I fired it to get the last shot. NEVER mind it would've been better to just take the miss by that point... oh wait... PULL THE TRIGGER IN THE FIRST PLACE! The RO was just standing there laughing.. I was standing there laughing.. my squad was standing there bewildered.

But I shot the stage clean which was the first on the whole day. It's the little victories. Thats' what I tell myself

[al503]

I think target distance makes quite a difference as well. On close targets, 5 yards or closer, I tend to slap the trigger. But longer range targets I emloy feeling the reset. You can actually hear it quite evidently on my videos. For me, it is a far more accurate way of manipulating the trigger.

I would think it was the opposite; prepping the trigger before it breaks instead of feeling the reset?

[Rocket35]

Like every fine motor skill, it is something that takes practice to master and perform consistantly. I routinely practice a "reset drill" that I learned from Matt Burkett years ago and have found that it has increased my ability to consistantly perform this skill at speed. YMMV- but it isn't rocket science. I have found just relaxing my trigger finger allows the trigger to return just to it's reset without traveling any further.

[al503]

Like every fine motor skill, it is something that takes practice to master and perform consistantly. I routinely practice a "reset drill" that I learned from Matt Burkett years ago and have found that it has increased my ability to consistantly perform this skill at speed. YMMV- but it isn't rocket science. I have found just relaxing my trigger finger allows the trigger to return just to it's reset without traveling any further.

10-4. Just wondering if I was missing something.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I tried building a 1911 (very early in my gunsmithing career) with super-short overtravel and rest. I shot horribly. The shorter it was, the more I tried to do the minimum reset, and the more I got trigger freeze.

Now I shoot a lot of revolvers, and I never seem to be shooting the same pistol from one day to the next. I have photos of me in mid-stroke, with my trigger finger clearly off the trigger.

Short reset? Who cares? I want fast rest. If the trigger re-sets sluggishly, I'm hurtin'. I've experienced it with revolvers set up for PPC, that I was trying to shoot IPSC with. They were too sluggish, and held me back.

When it comes to reset I really don't care if it is short or long. Then again, I'm not a GM, so take it for what it's worth.

[G-ManBart]

G-man, I would love to see your machine's data based on gun design vs shooter. I would suspect you could see differences in trigger pull based on gun design. Some guns trigger mechanisims are just easier/more adapted to slapping than others.

There is definitely a difference in the shape of the graph when you change guns. With a Glock there is a definite step in the graph when it transitions from taking up the slack to really pressing the trigger. It's going to be very hard for anyone to slap through that transition (with a stock 5.5lb setup) and not disturb the sights. Typically, with a Glock, most people start the press pretty fast and then slow down what looked to be 20-50% depending on the difficulty of the shot. Once that transition goes from the slack to the actual press most "good" shooters maintained the speed of the press until the shot breaks. Some folks paused with the trigger all the way back for a bit and then did a gradual release, some held it back a bit and then totally released it and even others immediately released it all the way. I don't recall anyone that immediately released it just a little bit and then gradually let it go the rest of the way (which is almost what you would have to do to do fast splits going from reset to reset). In some ways all of this might make it a little bit harder to teach people to shoot Glocks well....just my theory. If the required effort would remain constant it might be less confusing....like a revolver.

A Sig or Beretta would give you a different profile from the Glock since there isn't a point during the press where it changes. I didn't look at any Sig or Beretta graphs while I was there, but going off what I did see I'd expect to see a couple of things. Once the press starts it's consistent until the last little bit before the break where some folks will slightly pause. Ideally, there shouldn't be a pause, but with practice most people can get away with it....this is common on "tight" shots where they think they need to really pickle the shot off.

With a 1911 that transition almost doesn't exist and with practice we can slap right through it and not cause wild shots (at least for reasonable distances). I will say that with a 1911 style gun it's easier to get closer to the reset point because the total travel distance is shorter. If you simply keep your finger in contact with the trigger the whole time you're not going to be too far away from the reset point (on most guns anyway). In reality almost everyone with a 1911 uses up all or almost all (for those that don't take their finger off all the way) of the available travel.

I think your other post that the "reset" point you talk about when going from gun to gun is probably a distance relationship as you suggest. On some guns you're going to allow your finger to relax more after the shot than others because the actual travel of the trigger is totally different.

I have yet to see, and now don't believe anybody can get to where they fire a shot and go to just barely past the point of reset at anything other than a snail's pace. Heck, I tried to do that....take a shot and go exactly to reset and I can't even come close when it's the only thing I'm thinking about. Dry fire and bullseye speed are only times 99.99% of the people can come close to stopping right at the reset point.

This also serves as a great way to teach people that once you start pressing the trigger only bad stuff happens when you stop. It also turned the lightbulb on for my why I always had great success with the first shot, double-action with an M9. R,

[Pittbug]

I don't worry about the reset, just the prep. After breaking the shot, I extended my trigger finger out to just before it comes off the trigger face, then pull back to prep it again. I think more about being consistent on how far out my finger extends than trying to feel the reset.