Sometimes I wonder ...

[Greg Bell]

Today was just a complete fubar of match management and my bay took the brunt of it. I felt myself getting surly, this isn't good for anyone. People come out here to have a good time and I need to try and make that happen.

We had a lot of new and nearly shooters come out, this is great I love to see new faces at the range.

One new guy who didn't start at my bay came down to shoot (he has already shot at least one stage). Load and make ready, shooter loads up places weak hand on holster and proceeds to cover his hand with the muzzle as he holsters. OK this is a teachable moment so I explain and demonstrate. At the beep he does the same damn thing on the draw, I repeat the lesson explaining that this really is a DQ offense. The shooter is gracious and seems to accept what I'm telling him. This is all good and part of why I enjoy doing this. What pisses me off his how did he shoot at least one other stage without correction?

A buddy from another club grabbed the timer to give me a break for water and I’m almost up in the rotation. I watch him run another guy who isn’t new but I’ve never seen him before is a real treat. He is a big guy wearing an oversize shirt and he is having trouble holstering getting shirt into the holster. This is of course being done with a Glock. So I walk up after he is done shooting and politely explain that this is a significant potential safety issue and he going to have to keep track of his shirt while holstering. Out comes the bravado and bluster, I tell him I do not want to be standing next to you when you touch one off into your leg or the ground. More bravado, well don’t stand next to me then. I walk away as nothing productive is going to transpire here. I can’t wait until this guy shows up again.

[Joe4d]

Question, did you DQ guy one or just explain it's a DQ able offense ? If you explained it's a DQable offense then didnt DQ him your sending a message that the rules dont matter.

[Greg Bell]

Joe,

I did not DQ him, but I understand and do not disagree with that mindset. I gave him information on where to see some basic tutorials on a draw stroke. Next time I see him I will ask if he is comfortable with the draw if not I will take him to an empty bay for a lesson.

[jkrispies]

Question, did you DQ guy one or just explain it's a DQ able offense ? If you explained it's a DQable offense then didnt DQ him your sending a message that the rules dont matter.

Greg and Joe, I think you're both correct here. Let me explain and also mention my background: while my club doesn't do official IDPA matches, we follow the same safety rules, and I've been running the discipline for the past 2-3 years. On the flip side, I was a high school teacher for 10 years and am now a Vice Principal, not incidentally in charge of discipline as well as educational integrity. As such, I do see the need to balance the need to establish and enforce rules as well as the need to truly "teach a lesson." In other words, if a kid does something wrong, I can suspend him for five days, but if I don't also teach him the correct behavior, then he's simply going to do the same thing immediately upon return and never break the cycle.

In the situation you described above, which ocurred with a new shooter, I would have done exactly what you'd done: pulled him aside and quietly (ie, preserving his ego so he'll react rationally) explain that he'd made a pretty serious error that could result in him being disqualified and injurred, but if it doesn't happen again we'll just keep it between us. Send him on his way with a watchful eye, and chances are it won't happen again; he's learned his lesson, the rules are clearly established, and the overall situation has improved with little to no fuss. There's a good chance that he'll end up being a regular contributing shooter, but if you toss him out at his first match then his ego will be burned so that there probably won't be a second match. If he does it again after this point (this match or another match) remove him from the match. If he does it again after that, then bar the SOB, because he's only proven that he's dangerous and won't change.

[Chills1994]

@ Greg Bell... sounds to me that your MD and/or club/range president needs to send out a mass email in addition to posting on the club's website that NO newbies are allowed to shoot a match without going through an orientation first.

Maybe another thing to separate the chaff from the wheat is to enforce the IDPA rule of only allowing them to shoot only one club match without being an actual IDPA member (or for them to become club/range members).

[Shawn Knight]

My club in AK had a short orientation course about safety and some common mistakes that are made. Full explanations of the commands given and some nuances that have been learned by others are added. All of the more experianced shooters are given a newbie or have one attached to their hip for the first and maybe second match depending on how well the person absorbs the material.

Edited February 15, 2009 by Shawn Knight

[Greg Bell]

My old club in MI we had a huge influx of new shooters and we did just that. I put together a new shooter class and had good feedback from those that attended, we also had a condensed version for those that just showed up at a match with no experience.

Things are a little laid back here, plus being a yankee and all that I can't get too carried away

Edited February 15, 2009 by Greg Bell

[Joe4d]

A pistol match is a match, a scored game, a contest that keeps score. The SO/RO are there to police the stages, ensure safety and make sure the score is accurate. Imagine watching a football game where the refs keep stopping and showing offensive lineman how to block without holding. Not recording a penalty or DQ earned by a shooter is cheating all the shooters that followed the rules. Remember the shooter "Earned" the penalty you as a SO didnt "Give" it to him. We need to get rid of this kinda thinking in IDPA. A match is not a class or lesson. If you want to mandate classes ahead of time or offer "How to shoot IDPA classes that's great. But a match is not the place to teach "lessons" A safety infraction was committed, you warned him, he did it again and you failed in your duties as SO. You then went on to describe how another shooter paid no attention to safety rules. Well why should he ? He's just seen examples of a complete lack of enforcement. Whats the point of safety rules if the people entrusted with the duty to enforce them, dont ? When I occasionally shoot IDPA I get so tired of SO's constantly feeling like they need to give a class. Score the game record the penalties and DQ's the shooters earn . If the shooter doesnt understand talk about it after the match.

[Greg Bell]

Joe,

The point you are making isn't lost on me. I could see the problem before I ever posted this thread. If the culture here isn't going to be conducive to consistent by the book officiating then I just may need to step away from being an SO.

[Shawn Knight]

I have never liked DQing a shooter that has never done this before or has never even competed before. Local club matches are one thing. they usually have very few shooters(10-30) and not much will be gained by a newbie that gets kicked out on his first day shooting.

I really like simple rules explanations and some continuity in the safety briefing given at the beging of their first match. All club that hold these type matches need to... No should be required to have some kind of New Shooter orientation. This is not a sink or swim sport. If they sink, they or someone else could get seriously injured or killed. I don't think people understand this when they come to a "Game" like ours.

You can't really get killed playing whiffle ball...

Well maybe by a car...

[Jim Norman]

Not IDPA, but relevant. We run two 'practice' matches a month. At each we run a tutorial for new shooters, they get about and hour of lecture on rules and scoring etc. Then we do a little dry fire drill, load, holster, draw, reload, unload, reholster. Then we go out on the range and do a live fire check, this to see if they really know how to load, shoot, reload, unload and holster. Most pass OK and go on,a few get asked to practice cold and come back next time. most do and we have a pretty good retention.

Jim

[Pat Miles]

I think everybody involved so far in this thread understands what I am about to say but I am going to say it anyway. We are playing a game with guns! The rules are the rules and they are there for very serious reasons. My opinion, the fellow who swept himself should have been DQ'd the first time he did it. Somebody could have then taken him aside and gave him a thorough explanation as to why he was DQ'd. That would have been his teachable moment. If he does not want to understand that he was DQ'd to protect him and the other shooters then I wouldn't want him back. If we let situations like this slide because we don't want to be looked at as being mean and unforgiving then we are only biding our time until something bad does happen and then we lose BIG! Maybe the loss of the range. Very probably civil lawsuits against the RO who let the infraction slide as well as other club officials. The rules clearly describe situations where DQ's are warrented and for the good of everybody they must be enforced. No if's,and's or but's.

CYa,

Pat

[lugnut]

Personally- I hate it when noobs show up at matches without first attending some practices. It's not fair to the SOs for sure... and like you witnessed... it's a potential safety problem. And it's NO PLACE to learn the game. I have differing views that some folks at my club on this but like whatmeworry said- this is a game with guns and is serious business.

[Joe D]

The biggest issue is the transplanted Yankee. OTOH you must be fairly smart as you left the frozen North. For some reason I am a new shooter magnet. They all tend to wind up in my squad. I had two yesterday. I think I need to start wearing my BP vest.

I generally go a little easy on them as far as Procedurals go. One shooter would have had 6 or 7 if I had been strict. Most were cover violations. I did not want to totally discourage him to the point of never showing up again. I would walk him through his mistakes while the targets were being pasted. He got the last three stages correct. He will be back. I have seen some of the "Range Nazi" SOs run new shooters off. I did ding him with two "pie slicing" Procedurals and one for dropping a mag with rounds in it.

One issue you don't get a second chance with is safety.

[Jim Watson]

I told one of Joe's new guys that he had caught a break, that I would have disqualified him for waving a gun around during a reload the way he had. He WAS getting better on execution - he was not a bad shot to begin with - and said he would be back next match.

[Joe D]

At least he responded when I yelled muzzle - unlike the guy at the 2007 Georgia match. I actually saw sunshine through the barrel of his 1911. Why is it that most LEOs feel a need to twist their gun to the side when they reload?

BTW I see you almost beat Randy with that "Gamer Gun" of yours. You should be ashamed of yourself shooting a manly .45 at 625.1 fps. I thought the IDPA rule book mentions something about "full power" loads.

[Filishooter]

A pistol match is a match, a scored game, a contest that keeps score. The SO/RO are there to police the stages, ensure safety and make sure the score is accurate. Imagine watching a football game where the refs keep stopping and showing offensive lineman how to block without holding. Not recording a penalty or DQ earned by a shooter is cheating all the shooters that followed the rules. Remember the shooter "Earned" the penalty you as a SO didnt "Give" it to him. We need to get rid of this kinda thinking in IDPA. A match is not a class or lesson. If you want to mandate classes ahead of time or offer "How to shoot IDPA classes that's great. But a match is not the place to teach "lessons" A safety infraction was committed, you warned him, he did it again and you failed in your duties as SO. You then went on to describe how another shooter paid no attention to safety rules. Well why should he ? He's just seen examples of a complete lack of enforcement. Whats the point of safety rules if the people entrusted with the duty to enforce them, dont ? When I occasionally shoot IDPA I get so tired of SO's constantly feeling like they need to give a class. Score the game record the penalties and DQ's the shooters earn . If the shooter doesnt understand talk about it after the match.

Joe is on the money, great post. SOs ARE ambassadors of the sport but at the same time, safety comes first. If I need to make a call, I'll make it...and politely explain why I made it. If the shooter needs further explanation I'll let someone else take the SO duties for the next shooter(s) so I can take the time to fully explain without holding up the squad. I've been on squads where the squad leader felt obligated to "teach" during the match. We were lucky to leave the range before dark. Most shooters aren't at the 3rd grade level, they need to take responsibility, read and learn the rulebook and understand what safe and unsafe means.

[Jaxshooter]

You might run off a new shooter if he is DQd his first match but those are the rules and we play our game with equipment that is deadly. I qiut shooting IDPA for just that, bending the rules from one shoter to the other. Not only did the local match lose me but 6 other shooters as well. If you have rules follow them to the letter for every shooter new, young, old , experienced or inexperienced.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I think everybody involved so far in this thread understands what I am about to say but I am going to say it anyway. We are playing a game with guns! The rules are the rules and they are there for very serious reasons. My opinion, the fellow who swept himself should have been DQ'd the first time he did it. Somebody could have then taken him aside and gave him a thorough explanation as to why he was DQ'd. That would have been his teachable moment. If he does not want to understand that he was DQ'd to protect him and the other shooters then I wouldn't want him back. If we let situations like this slide because we don't want to be looked at as being mean and unforgiving then we are only biding our time until something bad does happen and then we lose BIG! Maybe the loss of the range. Very probably civil lawsuits against the RO who let the infraction slide as well as other club officials. The rules clearly describe situations where DQ's are warrented and for the good of everybody they must be enforced. No if's,and's or but's.

CYa,

Pat

I totally agree with what you say and unfortunately had a new shooter DQ at one of my matches while we were filling out score sheets. It was his second match and he had been spoken to and coached on safe gun handling. I had his score sheet and was looking for division which he didn't seem to understand. To make it easier, I asked "What gun are you shooting" His answer was to draw the gun, sweep the squad and say "This One" He went home.

[atbarr]

His answer was to draw the gun, sweep the squad and say "This One" He went home.

Damn! DQ!

A.T.

[Duane Thomas]

WOW. I would say he was "a bit unclear on the concept."

[Bongo Boy]

WOW. I would say he was "a bit unclear on the concept."

I've just gotten my memberships and have never shot in a match..haven't even taken the safety classes. I have taken formal training at Sig, however, and after 40 years of shooting, am very glad I took them. Wish I had taken them 40 years ago. So there's my background and basis for opinion.

I am astonished so many folks are that concerned about whether a shooter comes back for a second match, and am blown away that most folks seem so reluctant to DQ someone for having weak hand anywhere near that holster. I have no problem with it at all, and wouldn't take the slightest offense...none whatsoever. It's a little embarassing...okay, it's a LOT embarassing. Good. It should be. Not all that bad way to learn a lesson, considering the alternatives. DQ me about twice for safety issues, and I'd consider myself lucky I've been given the chance to go get some additional handgun training then maybe come back. A DQ is NOT going to make me give up on the sport--but it sure is going to get the idea across I shouldn't be at a match. Duh.

As for the guy with the shirt in the holster, and the attitude, my emotional response would be to send him packing permanently. Don't come back to the club, pal. I think you probably handled him in a far more realistic and sensible way...given the circumstances of a jerk with a gun. His technical error isn't the biggest of his problems, clearly.

Anyway, I expect to make errors and I expect most will not be of a safety concern--until good habits are strongly ingrained and first-nature, I also expect to have my mind concentrating on pleasing the SO. Should the unfortunate time come when my lack of attention draws the attention of the SO, you can bet my mouth is shut except to say Yes sir. Arguing with the umpire...you're outta here.

I don't get why anyone would think of anything but to humble themselves before the guy who owns the range, and who is there to ensure my day is free of jerks with attitudes.

I'm thinking this ain't AYSO soccer where 'everyone gets to play'.

[Greg Bell]

Bongo Boy,

After some reflection, a few emails, and some conversations I've got a new attitude on this subject. I'm going to continue to SO but now I'm going to be a DQ issuing bastard. (I hope not but you get the point)

Anyway you get the point and any club would be glad to have a new shooter with an attitude like yours.

[Bongo Boy]

Bongo Boy,

After some reflection, a few emails, and some conversations I've got a new attitude on this subject. I'm going to continue to SO but now I'm going to be a DQ issuing bastard. (I hope not but you get the point)

Anyway you get the point and any club would be glad to have a new shooter with an attitude like yours.

Good. I'm sure your judgement is good on the gray areas. A shooter has a non-threatening, minor issue, he gets counseled on it, and it doesn't happen again during the match. That's fair. A shooter demonstrates twice during a match he doesn't respect the fact he has a deadly weapon in his hands, why would you give him a 3rd chance?

At some point yes, it's time to be a hard-ass. Inability to present and re-holster safely to me is something you don't learn at a match. That's where you learn to do it well. As for attitude and arguing with the umpire--I might...and I said might...try to explain something I did. But I doubt it. Argue with the SO or present some attitude? DQ.

My view going in is...you're there to save my life, and my No. 1 job is help you do your job by keeping an eye out for my errors and those of others. No. 2 job is to enjoy the day.