Running and facing uprange, pointing downrange

[badchad]

Same drill but stretching the distance out to 13 yards between boxes (the limits of level ground in my backyard) I just got a time of 7.4 seconds holstering the gun, and 5.6 seconds just turning left and running with the gun pointed behind me.

[JKSNIPER]

Badchad,

FIrst thank you for taking the time to do what I suggested and being a "test subject".

Kudos!

It seems like a longer period of time betweeen the two drills....what in your opinion in the holstering process takes so long that it causes the gap?

Seems to me that the action of placing the weapon in the holster should not take all that much.

Your analysis please.....

JK

[racerba]

Your analysis please.....

My analysis:

You can start moving sooner when you don't reholster. You can't mive while you are reholstering. It's like a standing reload.

Here's the breakdown for reholstering:

After the last shot

- put safety on (providing you have a safety)

- look down to see the holster

- put gun in

- turn and run

get to position

- turn

- draw

- bring gun up to aim

Here's the breakdown for not reholstering:

After the last shot

- turn and run (the gun is already down range) - probably saving .5 sec here

- get to position (bringing the gun towards the target at the same time you are turning) - probably saving 1.5 sec here

- the gun is already on aim, plus your grip is already perfect where redrawing, you may have to shift your grip

If you have an AD while running with the gun - TF out of the TG (same reasoning you gave to the reholstering)

Edited February 4, 2009 by racerba

[badchad]

With the Grauffel method of running up range, as soon as you call your last shot good you step back with whichever leg you are turning in the direction of and start running, the gun kind of stays put as you turn away, though if you are going left as I did in the test you turn it upside down pointing a bit downwards. Then when you hit the up range box turn your body around twisting and raising the gun higher as you do so. As soon as you turn around the gun is almost immediately on target. You can see him do it in his DVDs.

With holstering the gun I had to keep my feet planted after the shot as I holstered the gun then turned and ran, which I think cost me several steps. Then when I arrived at the up range box I had to turn around and draw the gun while doing so, rather than having it already on target. I think the leaving costs more time than the entering, but I couldn’t say by how much.

[JKSNIPER]

HMMM....

I think we need more emphrical data.

Seriously I am surprised there is such a gap time wise.

I thought that the holstering action would not take all that long.

Looking at the holster should not have to happen but no big deal since thats where the weapon is going anyway......

I thought that the speed you could get running without encumberance would gain time for you and would make up for the small amount of time lost by the actions of holstering and drawing the weapon.

WHile I agree that the TF out of TG is the key to no AD/NDs I think you would agree that the chance of having one is greater with weapon in hand performing an act like running one way while trying to control the muzzle pointed in the opposite direction.

I know if 2 cases where falls have resulted in deaths from ADs.

Not in USPSA matches (thank God) but in actual SWAT drug raids.

In one an officer was proceeding up to a location when he encountered an individual with his hands in his pockets. The officer raised his H&K MP-5 and challenged the person ordering him to "Show his hands" the individual (for unk reason) failed to comply.The officer brought his weapon to bear on this guy and just then a second officer tripped on something in the yard and fell into the first officer.

The first officer's weapon discharged and one round struck the individual killing him instantly.

We (in the SWAT community) have found out since these incidents that when humans unexpectedly fall there is a reflexive action where we tend to uncontrolably grasp the objects we have in our hands.

This has also been discovered as a result of climbers tragedy from using a device called the petzl.

It operates by gripping it.

When you grip it the rope flows through the device causing you to descend.

The harder you grip it....the faster you go.

Apparently after a couple of people fell to their screaming bloody deaths with these devices it was discovered that the devices were functioning perfectly so why did they fall?

The answer was that they in their fear gripped the device in their hands harder and therefore basically free fell.

The sad thing is to stop all they would have had to have done was to let go but this is an un-natural reaction for us humans to perform while falling so they died.

My point in this is if the weapon is in the holster then it can't fire through an inadvertant TF in the TG or though grasping it while falling.

Not saying YOU can't be safe or that others can't do it safely .......just saying if the unexpected happens there CAN be tragic consequences and I'm always looking to make things safer.

As far as the guy shooting himself in '86?

I have NO idea of the skill level of the guy at the World shoot in 1986 that shot himself in the leg but I would humbly argue the point that the holstering action is not what caused him to be wounded but his having his finger in the trigger guard is what caused it.

TF out of TG unless you're ready to shoot.

For them t then prohibit holstering in response to this incident (IMHO) was the wrong response.

Its kind of like saying that a guy has an AD from the 7 yard line so we'll ban shooting from the 7 yard line and that will prevent future ADs. The one action has nothing to do with the other.

Badchad I think we ned you to run this drill more...and we need some more participation from spectators out there.

Give us a big data pool to "draw" from . (I kill me!)

JK

[Flexmoney]

...what in your opinion in the holstering process takes so long that it causes the gap?

Seems to me that the action of placing the weapon in the holster should not take all that much.

Your analysis please.....

JK

He is showing about a 2 second difference, which is about where I would estimate it based on my experience. (Really, that is pretty quick.)

How would you think that would be off? You threw out a time estimate of half a second, but that is not based on anything but a guess, right?

Think about it. The best draws...by themselves...are going to be about a second. Add a re-holster in on top of that. Our guys practice a speed draw a million times. Nobody is practicing a speed re-holster. Most gear isn't setup for it. It is asking for trouble.

Then, we can't turn up range and leave until the gun is holstered. Time.

Once we get where we are going, we'd have to get turned back down range to then draw (speed and safety issues).

[Nik Habicht]

Running with a loaded weapon in hand while deliberately looking in the opposite direction of where the weapons pointing would seem to be an unsafe act in and of itself.

On a square range that act done correctly endangers fewer folks than any police officer chasing a fleeing suspect, gun in hand. I however am not promoting the idea that it's clearly always the best procedure to have the officer holster prior to running --- as I'm aware of cops having been shot in such pursuits.....

That's the problem with generalized safety concepts based purely on the appearance of the act --- ya'll are making judgments based on your perceptions, without ever having considered the possibility that some of us have evaluated the potential dangers, devised a plan, refined it in dry-fire, and then tested it in practice before attempting it in a match. To you it looks unsafe --- eek, he's not looking at the gun --- to us, we know where our arm is in relation to our body, we can feel our finger pressed into the frame, we're getting the input required to accomplish the task safely; inputs you're not aware of --- so of course it looks scary......

Holsters used for competition are SUPPOSED to retain the weapon when the competitors moving around.

Clearly haven't seen too many modern race holsters......

[JKSNIPER]

Admitted Flex I made a guess , assumption, guesstimate, SWAG, based on my experience in shooting and moving.

I have no data here and as I said won't be getting any soon with the weather the way its been here.

Nik......I've seen those holsters.

They ARE supposed to retain the weapon..right?

Isn't there a USPSA rule that says something like a holster that fails to retain the firearm when moving is an unsafe holster?

I thought I had read that somewhere.

And like I said I'm NOT arguing that you and others here have not practiced drawing,running, firing, moving forwards and backwards enough....I'm sure you have.. ..just saying that performing such an act as we're discussing is #1 inherently unnatural and #2 the risk should a competitor fall or slip etc..is not (IMHO) worth the gain in time compared to the extra time it takes to holster and run safely.

If a guy here has a super duper race holster that throws the weapon into his hand when he just looks at it then I would respectfully say that such a holster is not safe to use regardless of whether hes planning to re-holster during a stage or not.

Tweak that Buck Rogers rig and get it safe hombre ! (lol)

JK

[Lee King]

Think of it in a different light.. How do you determine where that point is where it is no longer "under the control" of the shooter. For example, a right handed shooter running from right to left. I had the pleasure of RO'ing the super squad at a sectional match. The stage was set up in a T so the shooters had to engage targets around the sides of a barrier on the far left and far right. There was a slight advantage coming back to the middle of the T if you did so coming off of the left side. I.e. shooters were running from the far right, to the left, THEN up the middle. When running back to the left, almost every single one turned so their body was on the 180 line to the left, but they kept their pistol pointing at the berm at 45-90 degrees from their body to make it obvious to the RO they were no where near close to the 180. They sprinted with their left arm pumping but their right pointing mostly downrange. They were all looking at their next spot and not the gun. Why would this be any differnt from running uprange? And how would you define "uprange"? If you have 2 positions, A and B, and say B is a few feet more uprange than A making the line between them a few degrees off of parallel to the berm, would you require a reholster to make that move?

We had a very similar thread going discussing the 180 during the draw and what is the definition of "downrange". Not sure it was ever settled clearly. But the concept is similar. How would you define it so the RO can make a clear, fair, consistent, and concise call?

As an aside, the stage I described with the supersquad, I saw shooter after shooter running to the left with BOTH arms pumping and the muzzle of the gun coming dangerously close to 180. Ultimately, on the last squad of the match, a shooter pumped his arms a good 15 degrees past 180 and I had to DQ him. When I look back I took the lesson from the supersquad to not risk a close call and put your match in the hands of the RO. Believe me, they were no slower for running the way they did.

[JKSNIPER]

Lee,

Good call on that shooter.

"We had a very similar thread going discussing the 180 during the draw and what is the definition of "downrange". Not sure it was ever settled clearly. But the concept is similar. How would you define it so the RO can make a clear, fair, consistent, and concise call?"

Downrange- Where the bullets go.....hopefully.

Uprange- Where the bullets come from.....hopefully

Even easier....when you go to your next range session.

Hand something to a buddy and ask him to "Take it downrange" and see which way he goes.

If I told you suddenly to "LOOK DOWNRANGE!"

Where would you look?

If we're down at the target line and I say for everyone to "Head back uprange."....Which way do they all walk?

Simple stuff.

Not necessary to make it into lawyer language or define what the meaning of the word "is" means....just simple stuff that anyone whos been to any range safety course can tell you.

If I'm an R.O. and someone honestly is going to stand there at a match and claim that they do not understand what the terms "uprange" and "downrange" mean?

They are not going to be allowed to shoot that day.

This person needs to attend a safety course and some sort of basic instruction before he/she can be trusted with a loaded handgun.

JK

[larry cazes]

wouldn't it be safer to just holster the weapon then run to the next firing point and draw rather than run uprange with the weapon pointed somewhere downrange?

JK

No.

I think I must disagree with you JT.

Running with a loaded weapon in hand while deliberately looking in the opposite direction of where the weapons pointing would seem to be an unsafe act in and of itself.

I know the rules apparently allow it but think about it.

Looking and running in one direction while pointing the weapon in the opposite direction.

Muzzles move around a LOT when moving quickly and are hard enough to control when running in the same direction as the weapons pointing.

(Not talking so much about side to side movement but elevation of muzzle although BOTH can be a factor)

As has been stated. This is perfectly safe as long as the muzzle is kept in a safe direction downrange and the finger is kept away from the trigger. Much more to possibly go wrong when someone holsters a hot gun under the clock.

[ima45dv8]

Lee,

Good call on that shooter.

"We had a very similar thread going discussing the 180 during the draw and what is the definition of "downrange". Not sure it was ever settled clearly. But the concept is similar. How would you define it so the RO can make a clear, fair, consistent, and concise call?"

Downrange- Where the bullets go.....hopefully.

Uprange- Where the bullets come from.....hopefully

Even easier....when you go to your next range session.

Hand something to a buddy and ask him to "Take it downrange" and see which way he goes.

If I told you suddenly to "LOOK DOWNRANGE!"

Where would you look?

If we're down at the target line and I say for everyone to "Head back uprange."....Which way do they all walk?

Simple stuff.

Not necessary to make it into lawyer language or define what the meaning of the word "is" means....just simple stuff that anyone whos been to any range safety course can tell you.

If I'm an R.O. and someone honestly is going to stand there at a match and claim that they do not understand what the terms "uprange" and "downrange" mean?

They are not going to be allowed to shoot that day.

This person needs to attend a safety course and some sort of basic instruction before he/she can be trusted with a loaded handgun.

JK

JK,

Please bear in mind that we are talking about people navigating a course of fire at high speed. This isn't a simple exercise of walk or look, up- or down-range. To put a fine point on it, the difference between uprange and downrange, in the USPSA context, is separated by something like +/- .5 degrees of orientation. Many competitors are working on the very sharp edge of things, and using 179.5 degrees of the 180 they are provided. I've never had a competitor tell me they didn't know where uprange or downrange was, but you can expect to meet more than a few who are willing to debate where one ends and the other begins.

It does occasionally make for some interesting moments when running a timer.

[Lee King]

"We had a very similar thread going discussing the 180 during the draw and what is the definition of "downrange". Not sure it was ever settled clearly. But the concept is similar. How would you define it so the RO can make a clear, fair, consistent, and concise call?"

Downrange- Where the bullets go.....hopefully.

Uprange- Where the bullets come from.....hopefully

Even easier....when you go to your next range session.

Hand something to a buddy and ask him to "Take it downrange" and see which way he goes.

If I told you suddenly to "LOOK DOWNRANGE!"

Where would you look?

How 'bout a definition from the rule book to go with that? It has already been covered here. But the rule's are what RO's have to go by. How would you define "control" in such a way that is consistent, fair, and administereable? In the example I gave, not a single shooter from the super squad was watching their muzzle. They were holding the gun 75-90ish degrees from their body. What's the difference between that and running uprange? I would argue their way was the safer way rather than pumping your arms right on the 180 line. Can you say definitively when you run FORWARD you know the exact spot where your muzzle is pointed? I'm not talking about while engaging targets. I'm talking about moving forward to a barricade for example where you can't even see your target? Most shooters do not have their gun up in their line of sight until the last few steps as they approach. How 'bout during a reload? I practice reloads with my gun high in front of my face looking at the magwell. I can not "call a shot" while I'm doing a reload. Is that out of control? What about for revo shooters during their reloads? Where would you draw that line.

For just a second, forget about safety. How do you define "control" so that it's not a judgement call? I'm not trying to start another rehashing of the Draw vs. 180 topic and the orginal thread on the subject, I bring them up simply to point out how difficult such a seemingly simple concept is to define in the rulebook and the resulting confusion. A seemingly simple concept that was argued for page after page.

[Carmoney]

I would actually advocate in favor of a rule that outright prohibits reholstering a live gun after the start signal.

With many holster designs, it is difficult (if not impossible) to holster the gun without covering part of your body in the process. At the very least, as you holster the gun you're pointing the gun right down alongside your own leg, right?

While you can perhaps make the case that fast reholstering might be needed in a real-life deadly force encounter, I don't think that process should ever be undertaken on the clock as part of any shooting game. Whenever the clock is running, people are going to try to hurry up the process. And we don't want people hurriedly jamming their loaded guns back into their holsters, or bad things will happen.

[Chris iliff]

I ROed the stage at the Indiana Sectional that was a long brick wall with ports and you started down range and ran up range to the ports. Nothing wrong at all with running up range while trailing the gun straight behind you and pointing down range. Badchad is right on. I seen it ran every possible way for two straight days and trailing the gun was by far the fastest. I would also venture to say the safest. It is a method that should be practiced by any serious competitor. We had several DQ's on that stage and if memory serves correctly, I don't think any DQ was performing this method. They were doing something that didn't allow them to concentrate on their direction of travel, instead. I didn't know the method then and it showed in my time. I know it now.

[JKSNIPER]

Gentlemen and Ladies,

If the weapons pointing at your leg when you re-holster then guess what?

Its probably pointing at your leg when you initially draw too....and last time I checked you're under the clock for the draw too.

If people can't be trusted to re-holster "fast" because they're under pressure and the clock then they probably can't be trusted to operate a loaded firearm under pressure either.

I can't believe that some here will readily make the argument that "Its unsafe to re-holster because it can cause an A.D." but somehow "magically" the shooter in queston is deemed to be "safe" from the dreaded A.D./N.D. because they're running/looking in one direction and pointing their pistol in another.

Can't have it both ways guys.

Re-holstering does NOT cause A.D./N.Ds.

The lack of thought about what the shooter was doing and the finger the shooter placed on the trigger and put pressure on is what causes the A.D./N.D. not the "evil" holster.

Where does uprange begin and downrange end ?

Easy.

Where we're standing now towards the targets is downrange behind us is uprange. (I can't believe we have to go over this.)

As far as defining other terms like "control" I will answer as a Supreme court justice did once when asked what the definition of pornagraphy was:

"I may not be able to define it but I know it when I see it."

Please lets try to keep the discussion on the original thread.....or we'll get a moderator spanking.

JK

[Nik Habicht]

Re-holstering does NOT cause A.D./N.Ds.

The lack of thought about what the shooter was doing and the finger the shooter placed on the trigger and put pressure on is what causes the A.D./N.D. not the "evil" holster.

And that's precisely our point --- if you can't see the difference between an "on the clock draw" and an "on the clock reholster," you're clearly not getting the argument. Holsters must cover the trigger guard to be legal in the game. That, combined with the motion of the drawstroke, prevents a gun from firing, unless the shooter both gets his finger on the trigger early and actually pulls that trigger. We have double redundancy.....

Reholstering on the clock --- the only thing required for a shot is not removing the finger from the trigger --- that's a single omission that will result in injury.....

[Carmoney]

Gentlemen and Ladies,

If the weapons pointing at your leg when you re-holster then guess what?

Its probably pointing at your leg when you initially draw too....and last time I checked you're under the clock for the draw too.

At least when you're drawing the gun, the gun starts out with the trigger guard covered (assuming it's a legal holster), and you're pulling the loaded gun out of the holster and away from the body, instead of directing the loaded gun toward the body. I know I am extremely careful every time I holster a loaded gun (whether it's on the range or in the concealed carry context), it's really not something that should be done in a hurry.

[JThompson]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&saf...tart=0&sa=N

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&saf...amp;btnG=Search

I rest my case

Edited February 7, 2009 by JThompson

[dcalvert]

Moving with a loaded handgun in any direction is a skill set that is required in our sport.

If any of the gun handling skills are done incorrectly the out come could be deadly, which is

why we train to perfect these methods.

Check out some of the video's of the ladies French champion (Laetitia) executing these skills safely.

Here is a link showing some really great gun handling including retreating up range.

She has many other video's on u-tube that are worth watching showing off her talent

One needs to perfect this skills dry firing before trying them in a match!

dcalvert

[JThompson]

I think I'm in love....

[JKSNIPER]

Re-holstering does NOT cause A.D./N.Ds.

The lack of thought about what the shooter was doing and the finger the shooter placed on the trigger and put pressure on is what causes the A.D./N.D. not the "evil" holster.

And that's precisely our point --- if you can't see the difference between an "on the clock draw" and an "on the clock reholster," you're clearly not getting the argument. Holsters must cover the trigger guard to be legal in the game. That, combined with the motion of the drawstroke, prevents a gun from firing, unless the shooter both gets his finger on the trigger early and actually pulls that trigger. We have double redundancy.....

Reholstering on the clock --- the only thing required for a shot is not removing the finger from the trigger --- that's a single omission that will result in injury.....

Nik,

No matter which way anyone here chooses to go M.A.T.T. still applies whatever you are doing.

M- Muzzle.....Muzzle pointed in a safe direction AND

T-Trigger.....Trigger- On Target? On Trigger. Off Target? Off Trigger.

Whether you're drawing or holstering or re-holstering or re-re-holstering follow those rules and the possibility of an A.D./N.D. is greatly reduced.

MY point on the running one way while pointing the weapon in another is that the act is not a natural one for people to do and therefore the chance for something to go wrong is greater when performing something that does not come naturally. In addition if a falling/tripping situation happens the weapon inside the holster is pretty safe from firing whereas for the weapon in hand its a toss up.

The incident resulting in a death I refered to in an earlier posting happened to a good friend of mine.

Hes a veteran officer and had over 10 years experience with our unit when the incident happened.

He was (and still is) one of the best weapons handlers and shots in the units history.

If you guys knew our bunch and were going to pick one of us that this was going to happen to he would probably be dead last on the list......most guys would not have thought this possible from this guy.

He has "mad skillz" as the kids would say and has demonstrated his expertise in weapons handling/operation numerous times.

He was one of our top instructors in firearms and is expert with all the weapons we operate with......

And yet it happened to him.

He HAD the weapon in his line of sight and was moving towards where the weapon was pointed when the accident happened.

Sorry but I don't buy the arguments presented so far.

To those that sent video links thanks for the entertaining videos but because someone does something and it works for them does not mean its a good idea to do it that way EVERY time.

"If little Jimmy Kelly jumps off a cliff....."

I was watching history channel the other day and they had a program showing all kinds of outrageous shooting demonstrations.

When one of the shooters was being introduced he fired his weapon at a target then gave it a western type twirl before holstering it.

Hes an expert however I would hope no one here would advocate such behavior simply because this person did it and nothing bad happened.

Points I'm trying to make here with my rambling:

#1. A shooter does not have total control of a weapon not in his/her line of sight.

I think we would all agree that it is imperative for a shooter to be in TOTAL control of their weapon at ALL times to avoid a possible accident.

#2. Even for the greatly skilled the act of "running" in one direction while pointing the weapon in another can move the muzzle where it should not go.

I'm talking about RUNNING not just walking at a quick pace or "grouchoing".

#3. The chances of having an A.D./N.D. ARE greater with weapon in hand performing this manuver than they are with a weapon in the holster.

If a shooter is afraid the weapon will discharge from re-holstering their weapon then:

A. They need to work on their weapons handling skills to include keeping their finger OFF and AWAY from the trigger until looking downrange at a valid target and they are ready to fire.

B. Perhaps their holster is not safe and it needs re-adjustment or tweaking to make it so. Possibly the design is poor and then the shooter can be encouraged to purchase a properly designed holster that will protect the weapon and keep it from accidentally shooting him/herself in the leg.

We've had L.E. competitions where re-holstering is required and they are done under the clock with running etc involved and we've never seen a problem.

The ONLY time I am aware of a problem in the last several years was at a competition in Florida where a LEO shot himself accidentally in the leg.

The shooter readily admitted this was due to the shooter borrowing a weapon he was unfamiliar with and the H&K p-7 (squeeze cocker ) fired when he was holstering between stages.

He had his finger on the trigger and was using a borrowed weapon he was unfamiliar with.

The act of re-holstering did not cause him injury ....the finger in the trigger+ being unfamiliar with the borrowed weapon caused the A.D./N.D.

Don't blame the equipment for what is a lack of or lapse in judgement/skill.

If the equipment is that bad then get it fixed or replaced.

JK

[Jim Norman]

The day we require a shooter to reholster before running up range, is the day I quit. Locally we had an officer shot himself reholstering OFF the clock. He FORGOT to take his finger off the trigger and when finger hit holster, gun went bang, bullet went into leg. Re-holster off the clock as in between strings, OK. I put this up there with speed unloading. A good way to get hurt.

Jim

[Woody Allen]

JKSNIPER:

Ah....I think you are posting on the wrong board. Mentioning LEOS and safety? Running with a gun unsafe??

This is USPSA. An extreme sport. We shoot triggers at a pound or less. No magazine safety. Pin the grip safety. No firing pin safety. We exceed SAMMI pressures on our loads. We design the equipment, we test the equipment, we set the standard on techniques which become what is trained to LEOs and our military.

Our safety record is unmatched. Don't talk about your SWAT heros. Unless they shoot USPSA we assume they can't shoot. Unfortunately, this as proved to be true-wish it was not, but it is what it is.

I suggest you go to the range and run with your finger off the trigger--you have seen the videos, copy the technique. Really, you are making a mountain out of a anthill. BTW, if your trigger is off the trigger when you run, the trigger don't get pulled when you fall.

I, personally, now practice shooting el presidente jumping on a trampoline with a full flip (reload during the flip). I have tentative approval that it will be a classifier within the next six months.

[JKSNIPER]

Jim,

So because this guy shot himself the holster is to blame?

I STILL do not see the point of the arguement.

I admit some of the people who do the running can out shoot me and probably have done it 100 times without mishap.

Hell maybe 1000 times.

Not arguing that they don't have skills...not saying they're not intelligent..not looking to insult anyone.

Just saying that when you're looking at point "A" and moving quickly to point "A" but pointing your weapon at point "B" which is in the direct opposite direction of point"A" then how much control do you really have over the weapon ?

Can you pull the trigger from falling even if the finger is NOT within the trigger guard the answer is YES you can.

Am I saying it WILL happen to ALL persons each and every time there is a fall?

No I NEVER said that.

Just saying on the safety gauge this behavior is not as safe as re-holstering and moving.

Woody,

I never suggested a comparison of abilities between IPSC/USPSA competitors and SWAT guys.

FWIW the guy I mentioned has competed in IPSC/USPSA and at his first match won a weapon because of his shooting ability.

The other things you mention in your posting being adopted by military and SWAT officers...

The civilian world HAS made SIGNIFICANT contributions to the development of shooting techniques and equipment SOME of which HAVE transitioned over to the MIL/LE side of things.

Some of which have NOT.

The examples of pinning safeties or removal of same is a good example and a BIG no-no.

Also I NEVER stated that the safety record for USPSA was bad.

However I AM ALWAYS looking to raise the bar and improve everything I can, especailly safety, BEFORE there is a tragedy and we have to say we should have thought of/done this sooner.

Remember its ALWAYS an "anthill" until someone gets hurt/killed then its a BIG mountain.

In todays climate of anti-firearms groups waiting to pounce I think it behooves us all to seriously look at ALL aspects of the sport to see where safety can be improved BEFORE the bad thing happens.

In certain areas of the country there is not a firearms friendly attitude towards us or our facilities.

In these areas just one round fired that leaves the range and does NO physical injury CAN get a range shut down..... possibly never to re-open again.

Realize that USPSA and IPSC are GAMES.

While they are VERY challenging, I love to do them, and occasionally I actually get one right I never delude myself into thinking that this is how I would do it "for real".

Not looking to drift this into a tactics discussion so lets just say the stages set up in matches I have shot are fun and thats how I look at them.

At work occasionally I have had to play on the 2 way range.

Not a whole lot of fun so thank the Good Lord that its not an everyday occurance.

Usually someone gets hurt and the DQ there is somewhat permanent.

The guys I work with and I do not consider ourselves to be "SWAT Heros"...we certainly do not act like we consider ourselves to be such.

We can agree to disagree peacefully and I would appreciate it if we could keep things on a civil tone and s-can any future deragatory/insulting remarks.

Thank you.

JK