Running and facing uprange, pointing downrange

[RegRob]

Hi all,

Is there any general rule that applies to a situation where the shooter does not have visual contact with his gun, i.e. while running/looking uprange, pointing downrange? Could this be considered unsafe, as the shooter isn't fully in control or something?

What if the shooter fires without looking at the gun, for instance through a low hatch, or around a corner?

§ 10.5 properly regulates the specific rules of gun handling, and it doesn't say anything about this. If anyone knows of a § that regulates this, please guide me.

Thanks

Rob.

[walter hornby]

Hi all,

Is there any general rule that applies to a situation where the shooter does not have visual contact with his gun, i.e. while running/looking uprange, pointing downrange? Could this be considered unsafe, as the shooter isn't fully in control or something?

What if the shooter fires without looking at the gun, for instance through a low hatch, or around a corner?

§ 10.5 properly regulates the specific rules of gun handling, and it doesn't say anything about this. If anyone knows of a § that regulates this, please guide me.

Thanks

Rob.

Running up range with the gun pointed down range is a required skill. for as long as it is done safely, no sweep and doesn't break 90 in any direction including up, then no problem.

The only problem with shooting through a low port with out taking a sight picture is that a person could put one over the top of the berm which would result in a match DQ. if a MD is designing a course like this he should insure that if someone does take the random shot that all rounds will impact on the berm.

[Nik Habicht]

In both cases the shooter is responsible for the result of his actions. Neither of the situations described is necessarily unsafe; either one might be unsafe depending on circumstances --- i.e., the shoot turns a corner and doesn't bend his arm to keep the muzzle downrange; the shooter fires and unaimed shot at the target that goes over the berm or impacts the ground within 10 feet when the target is more than 10 feet away....

[JThompson]

There's nothing wrong with it... I've done is several times when I needed to motor. Just because you aren't looking at the gun doesn't mean you are focused on where you arm is in relation to the 180.

[larry cazes]

Our local matches have stages that require retreating in this manner regularly. Finger where it should be and muzzle not breaking the 180 and you should be fine. Do not equate this to firing a round with no visual contact with the gun. Even though I am not aware of a rule prohibiting this I think it is a bad practice. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[Nik Habicht]

Do not equate this to firing a round with no visual contact with the gun. Even though I am not aware of a rule prohibiting this I think it is a bad practice. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Shooting from retention is accomplished safely in another sport --- but a lot there depends on stage set-up. Bury a retention target directly in front of a very tall berm, and it's not a problem; do it a long ways from the berm and you're asking for trouble.....

[maineshootah]

Hi all,

Is there any general rule that applies to a situation where the shooter does not have visual contact with his gun, i.e. while running/looking uprange, pointing downrange? Could this be considered unsafe, as the shooter isn't fully in control or something?

What if the shooter fires without looking at the gun, for instance through a low hatch, or around a corner?

§ 10.5 properly regulates the specific rules of gun handling, and it doesn't say anything about this. If anyone knows of a § that regulates this, please guide me.

Thanks

Rob.

Running up range with the gun pointed down range is a required skill. for as long as it is done safely, no sweep and doesn't break 90 in any direction including up, then no problem.

+1

[larry cazes]

Do not equate this to firing a round with no visual contact with the gun. Even though I am not aware of a rule prohibiting this I think it is a bad practice. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Shooting from retention is accomplished safely in another sport --- but a lot there depends on stage set-up. Bury a retention target directly in front of a very tall berm, and it's not a problem; do it a long ways from the berm and you're asking for trouble.....

Nick, shooting from retention is a whole lot different than I believe the original post referred to. The post concerned a situation where you cannot see the gun (no visual contact). Have I misinterpreted this? I have seen a lot of stages where the design encourages this and a lot of folks will literally put their gun into a low port or around a blind barricade and fire rounds when they cannot see their gun.

[John Baier]

Do not equate this to firing a round with no visual contact with the gun. Even though I am not aware of a rule prohibiting this I think it is a bad practice. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Shooting from retention is accomplished safely in another sport --- but a lot there depends on stage set-up. Bury a retention target directly in front of a very tall berm, and it's not a problem; do it a long ways from the berm and you're asking for trouble.....

Nick, shooting from retention is a whole lot different than I believe the original post referred to. The post concerned a situation where you cannot see the gun (no visual contact). Have I misinterpreted this? I have seen a lot of stages where the design encourages this and a lot of folks will literally put their gun into a low port or around a blind barricade and fire rounds when they cannot see their gun.

I feel as a shooter and as an RO, that loosing sight of your gun while shooting through a low port or blind barricade is a risky proposition. Better stage designs would cure those problems. The last thing I would want to happen, is not knowing where my round went.

[Nik Habicht]

Nick, shooting from retention is a whole lot different than I believe the original post referred to. The post concerned a situation where you cannot see the gun (no visual contact). Have I misinterpreted this? I have seen a lot of stages where the design encourages this and a lot of folks will literally put their gun into a low port or around a blind barricade and fire rounds when they cannot see their gun.

Visual input is not the only thing you can use to accurately and safely fire a gun --- but as with any "different" technique, the shooter must be extremely confident in their technique....

[RegRob]

Nick, shooting from retention is a whole lot different than I believe the original post referred to. The post concerned a situation where you cannot see the gun (no visual contact). Have I misinterpreted this? I have seen a lot of stages where the design encourages this and a lot of folks will literally put their gun into a low port or around a blind barricade and fire rounds when they cannot see their gun.

Visual input is not the only thing you can use to accurately and safely fire a gun --- but as with any "different" technique, the shooter must be extremely confident in their technique....

Larry got it right, and I think Nik had a very good summary statement. Thanks for your input, guys. And as most of you, I also believe that a good range design to a large extent eliminates the potential problems discussed here.

[pjb45]

At Nationals in Tulsa two years ago, there was a very low port. Taran practices a lot of point shooting, just sortof squatted down, lowered his gun and nailed the targets. Robbie did the same thing except I think he picked up a No Shoot. I think it was at the same National match where most people just reached around a wall and pulled the trigger on a target they could almost touch with the gun.

In L10 Nationals, shooters got out of a golf cart, picked up their gun from the back of the cart, shot some targets then proceeded up range. One top GM actually turned and ran with his gun pointing uprange. RO did not call the DQ.

I guess what I am trying to say, even at the Nationals, there are stages that encourage both having the gun out of direct sight and running up the range.

[JKSNIPER]

wouldn't it be safer to just holster the weapon then run to the next firing point and draw rather than run uprange with the weapon pointed somewhere downrange?

JK

[JThompson]

wouldn't it be safer to just holster the weapon then run to the next firing point and draw rather than run uprange with the weapon pointed somewhere downrange?

JK

No!

That would be nasty dangerous because people would be holstering hot under time pressure and a nightmare for the ROs to see if it was done properly. Also, some holsters don't like full tilt boggie... If I remember right the designer can't require a re-holster, but it's legal for the shooter to do so.

Edited February 4, 2009 by JThompson

[JKSNIPER]

wouldn't it be safer to just holster the weapon then run to the next firing point and draw rather than run uprange with the weapon pointed somewhere downrange?

JK

No!

That would be nasty dangerous because people would be holstering hot under time pressure and a nightmare for the ROs to see if it was done properly. Also, some holsters don't like full tilt boggie... If I remember right the designer can't require a re-holster, but it's legal for the shooter to do so.

I think I must disagree with you JT.

Running with a loaded weapon in hand while deliberately looking in the opposite direction of where the weapons pointing would seem to be an unsafe act in and of itself.

I know the rules apparently allow it but think about it.

Looking and running in one direction while pointing the weapon in the opposite direction.

Muzzles move around a LOT when moving quickly and are hard enough to control when running in the same direction as the weapons pointing.

(Not talking so much about side to side movement but elevation of muzzle although BOTH can be a factor)

Holsters used for competition are SUPPOSED to retain the weapon when the competitors moving around.

The 1/2 second it takes to holster and then run IMHO would be worth it rather than possibly have the weapon discharge and the round go over the berm and off the range.

JK

Edited February 4, 2009 by JKSNIPER

[Steve J]

wouldn't it be safer to just holster the weapon then run to the next firing point and draw rather than run uprange with the weapon pointed somewhere downrange?

JK

No!

That would be nasty dangerous because people would be holstering hot under time pressure and a nightmare for the ROs to see if it was done properly. Also, some holsters don't like full tilt boggie... If I remember right the designer can't require a re-holster, but it's legal for the shooter to do so.

I think I must disagree with you JT.

Running with a loaded weapon in hand while deliberately looking in the opposite direction of where the weapons pointing would seem to be an unsafe act in and of itself.

I know the rules apparently allow it but think about it.

Looking and running in one direction while pointing the weapon in the opposite direction.

Muzzles move around a LOT when moving quickly and are hard enough to control when running in the same direction as the weapons pointing.

(Not talking so much about side to side movement but elevation of muzzle although BOTH can be a factor)

Holsters used for competition are SUPPOSED to retain the weapon when the competitors moving around.

The 1/2 second it takes to holster and then run IMHO would be worth it rather than possibly have the weapon discharge and the round go over the berm and off the range.

JK

I have to disagree too JK. You are controling the muzzle by pointing it toward the back berm while running up range. That's not unsafe at all, unless the shooters arms flail wildly, then he probably shouldn't be on the range at all. The chance of someone with a safety-less firearm like a Glock touching the trigger while reholstering under pressure is far greater and more dangerous.

[Steve J]

In L10 Nationals, shooters got out of a golf cart, picked up their gun from the back of the cart, shot some targets then proceeded up range. One top GM actually turned and ran with his gun pointing uprange. RO did not call the DQ.

Did you see it? Seriously? Was it pointing up range or did it just appear to break the 180?

[racerba]

Holsters used for competition are SUPPOSED to retain the weapon when the competitors moving around.

The 1/2 second it takes to holster and then run IMHO would be worth it rather than possibly have the weapon discharge and the round go over the berm and off the range.

You have two things here - Safety vs. Speed. With not holstering, you sacrifice safety (in your view), while you are sacrificing speed the other way.

Running with the gun in hand:

- your fingers are supposed to be out of the trigger guard when you are moving - so AD should not be a concern

- you should not be flopping that gun all over the place - slight movement is acceptable

- you have more control over the gun than it flopping around on your hips

- my opinion - safety is not sacrificed

Holstering the gun:

- huge lost of time - safety on, holster the gun, lock the holster, turn up range, etc. WAAAAAY more than 1/2 sec.

- too many things to go wrong, especially under time pressure

- holsters are SUPPOSED to retain the gun - note the word "supposed" - even you highlighted that word.

- yes, it's probably the safest way, if everything works as they are "supposed to"

In our sport, we don't sacrifice safety for anything. The gun is pointed in a safe direction and finger out of the trigger guard. Of course, you don't expect someone who is new to shooting to be doing this at a fast pace, but slowly, it can be done safely.

[Jake Di Vita]

JK,

So you think holstering a hot gun on the clock is safer than just keeping it pointed down range with your finger off the trigger?!??

[sslav]

The 1/2 second it takes to holster and then run IMHO would be worth it rather than possibly have the weapon discharge and the round go over the berm and off the range.

JK

You try re-holstering a gun in 1/2 a second and you are a lot more likely to put a round into your lower extremities than you are to put a round over the berm while running uprange with the gun pointed downrange.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Requiring a reholster during a stage was banned after a guy shot himself in the leg at the world shoot in 1986.

[norbs007]

Totally agree with racerba. We've been doing this maneuver all these years and yet to hear a safety breach; I'm not saying it's not possible but haven't seen or heard one. As mentioned, somebody shot himself when reholstering during a COF. A big percentage of dropped gun violations are due to holstering and thinking it was secure.

[JThompson]

Requiring a reholster during a stage was banned after a guy shot himself in the leg at the world shoot in 1986.

[JKSNIPER]

To answer Jake and everyone ...

(I realize I'm apparently in the minority opinion here)

Sorry guys...gotta stick to this one.

Holstering is safer IMHO than running with a loaded firearm pointed in the opposite direction from the way you're facing/running.

To the people that say and AD might happen while holstering because of the "pressure of the clock" I say its simple.....

TF out of TG.

M.A.T.T.

Muzzle- don't point the muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy.

Action

Trigger -Finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

Target

If you'll have an AD/ND while holstering then you're just as likely to have one while running with a loaded weapon in hand.

Try running with the weapon in front of you going downrange.

Running while the weapon is pointed in front of us we can see the muzzle move quite a bit. It stays "downrange" but I'm sure anyone here would agree the chance that it will point to a place other than the intended one is greater with running than with walking or moving quickly (not running) but controlled.

This is why when we see targets at a distance we stop and set our selves prior to breaking the shot.

Because we recognize that running and shooting at that point we would miss due to lesser control of the weapon.

IMHO the safer way is to shoot the cof from location one.

Holster the weapon and turn and run fast to location 2 (Assuming loc 2 is uprange)

Then draw and fire the cof from loc 2.

I'll bet that theres not a LOT of time difference in the 2 methods. The time you lose holstering you probably make up in running faster to the second location.

Can anyone here test this out?

I'd do it but I'm home with a bad back and my areas snowed in now. (sob sob siffle sniffle)

Maybe one of you 80 degree day guys can fit this into your busy schedule?

Make a box on the range and call it box 1. set it about 5 yards from the targets.

Then a second box say about 30-35 yards from the targets.

Shoot from box one then run uprange while pointing downrange and then engage from box 2.

Check the timer.

Then do the drill the same way but this time holster before turning to run uprange to box 2 then draw and engage with however many rounds you want to fire in this drill.

Lets say fire 5 rounds from each box ?

Let us know the time difference if any.

Vary the distance between the boxes and distance from the targets and let us know if that makes a difference.

also let us know the accuracy...did it suffer from either method? Did you fid it harder to get back on target after drawing or after running fast?

And even IF there is a time difference to me its worth losing a couple seconds to enhance safety.

Consider this:

Is the objection because "I'll lose time." or is it because it is unsafe to re-holster?

If everyone was required to do it then there would be no lost time.

JK

[badchad]

I'll bet that theres not a LOT of time difference in the 2 methods. The time you lose holstering you probably make up in running faster to the second location.

Can anyone here test this out?

I'd do it but I'm home with a bad back and my areas snowed in now. (sob sob siffle sniffle)

Maybe one of you 80 degree day guys can fit this into your busy schedule?

Make a box on the range and call it box 1. set it about 5 yards from the targets.

Then a second box say about 30-35 yards from the targets.

Shoot from box one then run uprange while pointing downrange and then engage from box 2.

Check the timer.

Then do the drill the same way but this time holster before turning to run uprange to box 2 then draw and engage with however many rounds you want to fire in this drill.

Lets say fire 5 rounds from each box ?

Let us know the time difference if any.

I think running 30-35 yards backwards rarely if ever going to happen in any course of fire. However I just did a quick test in my backyard with dryfire. Draw to an A-zone 5 yards off, run backwards 5 yards, turn and shoot the A-zone again. In ten tries, by holstering the weapon as you describe I was able to work to a solid 5.8 seconds. By keeping the gun in hand and tuning up range, gun pointed back, as taught by Graffel, I was able to do it in 3.8 seconds working the par value down on my timer in ten attempts. I figure with my DOH holster I'm a best case scenario, but with a race holster, I think the difference will get a lot bigger. The 2 second difference I noted was pretty big in my opinion.

Is the objection because "I'll lose time." or is it because it is unsafe to re-holster?

Yes.