Flatland Shooter Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) Just finished reading Flex's topic in the Firearms Law / Announcements forum "AFTER BEING INVOLVED IN A SHOOTING INCIDENT". IMO this is a must read! But it does raise the question about an attorney. Per the topic, "If involved in a self-defense shooting, let your lawyer do the talking". How many out there have an attorney on their speed dial should something like this occur? Or do you at least have the name and phone number of some association that can locate an attorney for you? And if not, how does one find effective counsel at whatever wee hours something like this might happen? I hope to never need one, but hope for the best, plan for the worst may apply here. Bill Edited January 18, 2009 by Flatland Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Rusert Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Could having an attroney on speed dial imply premeditation? I'd prefer to have my lawyer's phone number memorized. Also recommend you watch/listen to: Don't Talk To The Police: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...k+to+the+police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddy_fuentes Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 You don't need an attorney on speed dial, just tell the Officers that you will not talk to them until you have you attorney present. That ends the conversation there. Then keep your mouth shut...even if you are 100% sure that you were justified. Always have a back-up attorney. Sometimes your attorney won't take the case due to a conflict. He may even be sick or on vacation when you need him. If nothing else ask for a public defender. Some of the statements you make may not be used in a criminal proceeding, but if noted (and you can bet they will) could be used in a civil case. Buddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranDoc Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Recently noticed, in the business card display next to the register at one of the local ranges, an attorney has a stack of his cards there right along with the gunsmiths, training instructors, etc. Might be a more efficient way of locating someone 'gun-friendly' than looking through the 55-page 'Attorneys' section in the Yellow Pages. Agree with prior posts -- be cordial, polite and as pleasant as possible with the investigating officer. But do defer the interview until your attorney is present and you've had a chance to confer privately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Something else, have a bail bondsman already setup. I learned something recently, you cant post your own bond even if you have the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 My advice: Know who you would use for an attorney in the event of a problem (might be a shooting incident, but it's just as likely to be some other situation you haven't even considered). Ideally, talk with that lawyer in advance so he/she knows who you are. Leave the lawyer's contact information so it's readily available to a trusted family member that you can always reach by phone. If something happens, call that family member and let them round up the lawyer for you. Then if there is a problem reaching that attorney, the family member can work out a back-up arrangement for you much easier that you can if you're in custody. Having some cash in a safe place at home is a good idea as well, for obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Could having an attroney on speed dial imply premeditation? That would certainly not be admissible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Ok, attorney on speed dial, defense team, etc.... What about the average Joe with little or no resources. It would appear at face value that he/she is toast without the necessary assets to hire a bunch of lawyers. So, is it the American Golden rule - if you have the Gold you got a chance, and if you don't leave the gun/knife at home and take your mugging/robbery medicine like a good poor victim? What are the options? Lots of folks in jail in America because they couldn't afford their own lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Ok, attorney on speed dial, defense team, etc....What about the average Joe with little or no resources. It would appear at face value that he/she is toast without the necessary assets to hire a bunch of lawyers. So, is it the American Golden rule - if you have the Gold you got a chance, and if you don't leave the gun/knife at home and take your mugging/robbery medicine like a good poor victim? What are the options? Lots of folks in jail in America because they couldn't afford their own lawyer. I think there are some pretty good books available that cover the legal aspects of civilian use of deadly force...probably worth looking into them. Assuming this is a shooting situation, I'd suggest the following: When law enforcement shows up you'll need to make it clear you're a good guy/not a threat. If the bad guy ran away or is lying on the ground, you don't want to be standing there with a weapon visible when the police show up...that sort of thing. Tell them the basics like "I was using this ATM and a guy with a gun tried to rob me. I shot/shot at him and he ran down the street in that direction. He was xyz description, about 6' tall wearing a grey jacket and blue jeans". Then shut up and if they ask you questions tell them that you will speak to them with a lawyer present. I guess if they ask a specific question about the description of the bad guy "did his jacket have a hood" you could answer that....they might have a suspect in custody that they're trying to ID down the street etc. If they ask something like "how close did he get to you" then you're back into having a lawyer present. If the bad guy is on the ground, it's a lot easier...."he had a gun and tried robbing me" and then ask for an attorney if they have any questions. Per the original topic, I keep a card in my wallet that has the emergency contact info for my agent's association so they can get me a lawyer ASAP no matter where I am. For when I'm in the local area I have the numbers of two friendly attorneys who have a history of successfully representing folks in these sorts of cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 All very good stuff guys, keep it coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Waiting to build a relationship with an attorney is like buying a spare tire when you have a flat. I would strongly recommend everyone align themselves with a lawyer that you know and trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Any hints or thoughts on finding local attorneys who are gun friendly, and might have some experience with self defense issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Good advice here. Since one of our local shooters is an attorney, I think his phone number in my cell would be smart. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 (edited) There are a couple of Assistant District Attorney types that shoot but that's not the side of the Angels in this type of unfortunate situation. So that's a no win/no help situation. Other lawyer types are scarce unless there is a good amount of cash around. It still seems to smell like it's the guy with coin that might have a chance. Sort of a question of which carries less risk in the overall scheme of things? So, cave in to an individual with possible bad intent or several legal systems(criminal and civil) with very proven track records of going after anyone who is not an authorized guy with an authorized employees agents association - LLEO's and FLEA's are on pretty solid grounds no matter what. And with the economy in the toilet my guess is that public defenders are going to be scarce. Seems it's a leave defenses at home or the family may lose everything type of situation. Moral of the story, maybe only carry when/if you think you really might need something if you are unwilling to risk your life but are willing to risk anything your family might have to care for themselves. I'm feeling very conflicted about this choice. Which is more important with the current system and attitudes? Edited January 19, 2009 by Viggen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Moral of the story, maybe only carry when/if you think you really might need something if you are unwilling to risk your life but are willing to risk anything your family might have to care for themselves. I'm feeling very conflicted about this choice. Which is more important with the current system and attitudes? One of the local trainers (and competitive shooters), Karl Rehn, is fond of saying "How much is your life worth?" when asked this sort of question Possibly more importantly, how much are the lives of your family worth? There's always the standby cliche of "better to be judged by 12...", too. The best thing you can do is to be prepared - and that doesn't just mean to pack a gun. Understand the laws you're working under. Know something about how to de-escalate threatening situations. Be aware of your surroundings, and ways out of the place you're at, if needed (being aware makes it easier to de-escalate, too). Understand that, if circumstances allow, dealing with the indignity of having to turn tail and run may be quite a bit easier to deal with than the aftermath of a shooting. If you do the majority of things right in these situations, and don't break any laws in the process, it will be a painful, stressful situation, but you'll still be alive to provide for your family, and they'll be unhurt - and you'll still have each other. If something bad happens, its true, you may lose material possessions, and you may serve jail time - but at the same time, your family will hopefully be physically unhurt. If you choose not to carry, you lose an option with how to deal with those scenarios - you are left with complying, or running (if you can). Lately, complying seems to end up poorly for the victim. Its a very personal choice - and there are all sorts of factors to take into account. With any luck, none of us will ever have to know if we made the right choice or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 (edited) Ok, attorney on speed dial, defense team, etc....What about the average Joe with little or no resources. It would appear at face value that he/she is toast without the necessary assets to hire a bunch of lawyers. Well for starters, if you can afford to get involved seriously in the competitive shooting sports (i.e. a fairly expensive recreational activity), you can afford to (1) pay for an hour's consultation with an experienced criminal defense attorney for an overview on the deadly force laws in your jurisdiction, and (2) stick away a few rainy-day bucks in a safe place so you can at least cover the initial retainer if you happen to be charged with a crime. It's all a matter of priorities. I'm a partner in a law firm, and I drive a '93 Buick while many of the "average Joes" around this area have brand new pickups and SUVs in their driveways.... Edited January 19, 2009 by Carmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 By the way, if you want to figure out the best attorney to retain, do a little homework and find out who defends the cops in your area when they stand accused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I'm a partner in a law firm, and I drive a '93 Buick while many of the "average Joes" around this area have brand new pickups and SUVs in their driveways.... Yeah, but oh baby, is it a FINE 93 Buick, and it kinda goes with the revo thing. . In all seriousness great advice from Mike, as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Rusert Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 By the way, if you want to figure out the best attorney to retain, do a little homework and find out who defends the cops in your area when they stand accused. Excellent thought. Thank you for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 By the way, if you want to figure out the best attorney to retain, do a little homework and find out who defends the cops in your area when they stand accused. +! That's how I got the two names I keep in my wallet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 stick away a few rainy-day bucks in a safe place so you can at least cover the initial retainer if you happen to be charged with a crime. For any sort of crime involving discharge of a firearm into another person, the "few rainy-day bucks" are going to be on the order of $50 - $100K. A former shooter who prevailed in the legal aftermath of pointing a gun at some criminals (whose sole role at the trial was "wittness/victim" since the DA preferred to charge an adult for assault rather than charge minors with breaking and entering) "Justice is a commodity just like any other, and how much you get depends on how much you can afford to pay for". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I met with a few, picked one that I liked and gave him a $500 retainer. The retainer wasn't mandatory, but I wanted to make the "client" thing more official. He has already answered a couple of legal questions for me pro bono- so I think it was a good investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 You bet I do and in the event I terminate a perp he will file civil charges aginst the perps family ASAP in an effort to prevent some wrongfull death crap out of them. If the perp survive he will file a civil sute aginst them for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 This stuff is pretty simple if you live in most rural parts of the US. In your town, village, or small city, you probably already know who the "man to call" is, so sure, have his / her number handy. Make sure family knows what to do also, as you may not be able to get through to him at 2:00 a.m. If you live in an area like this, there is no good reason not to get to know your lawyer, just as well as you know your dentist, doctor, mechanic, etc. If you live in a big city, I think the job gets tougher even though the number of lawyers grows dramatically. I am a trial lawyer and travel quite a bit. In 90% of the cities I regularly visit, no clue who I would call. That part would get sorted out later...as would the statement from me. It is not going to happen at the scene of what we are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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