38superman Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) Nik, I think you're missing the point. The fact that I can draw and reload faster with a 2011 over a 1911 has nothing to do will attitude, philosophy, expectations, whatever. It has to do with physical reality. The larger magwell and grip combined with a tapered magazine is much more forgiving of error. As for gear placement, I start a stage with a mag in the gun and four on my belt. To run a long field course I often have to use them all. It's a long reach to get to the one in the back. True if I work hard with the SS to the exclusion of other gear, I could probably raise my skill level with the skinny gun to the point that my times would be comparable. However, if I raise my skill level, a rising tide lifts all boats. I suspect that all that work would push my speed up in the other divisions as well. The point is that all other things (skill level) being equal, there is a natural advantage to the 2011 in L10 both in the physical charachteristics of the gun and gear placement. There is also the matter of the round count advantage that L10 holds over SS. That ain't going away either. I would really like to propose an experiment. Any of you folks out there that have a SS rig and a high cap L10 or Limited rig with a speed holster. Do what I did. Go to the range and do 30 one shot draws with each rig in sets of 10 and average the times. 7 yds and only A hits are scored. If it's not an A, throw it out and don't count the time. Alternate the guns in 10 shot sets. Then ad reloads and do the whole thing again. Draw, one shot, reload, one shot, reload, etc until you have cycled through five shots and 4 reloads. That will force you to run though four magazines from your belt. If we could get a few of you to try this and report back, I would LOVE to see the results. Volunteers? Tls Edited December 17, 2008 by 38superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I'm not missing the point --- you guys have decided that using SS gear is Slower than using L10 gear. Your test is cute, but I don't know what it will really tell us --- since we don't keep score in time. Take ten runs, add up the points and divide by the total time, and you have something that actually correlates to the way we score the game..... Rob Leatham has said on more than one occasion that nothing shoots as well for him as a SS --- in our game. You're talking about the advantages of L10 guns/gear (magwell, holster, holster position) but you're also at least potentially giving something up with the switch in gear. Nothing in this game is all gain, no loss..... Go ahead, shoot SS exclusively for a few years, then switch back to Limited Gear and shoot some L10 classifiers --- you might be surprised by what you notice, if you can keep an open mind..... If you've already decided though, it doesn't matter what you do. The results will either validate your decision, or if they don't you'll find a way to rationalize them away.... I've never shot a SS all that well, had a lot to do with lack of practice. I never thought that reloads were the problem however, as I could reload Wilson 8 rounders faster and more precisely into an S&A magwelled Colt than all doublestack mags I've ever tried to get into DS guns.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 It's not just Single-stack. What if limited used open classifier HHF? What if...Limited-10 had EXACTLY the same High Hit Factors as Limited. (Forget that L-10 has to do a reload on Times-Two and Limited doesn't.) What if...Production High Hit Factors were EXACTLY 95% of Limited. (I always thought of that as a 5% gift. Minor doesn't matter, as the top shooters are hitting Alphas.) What if...Revolver High Hit Factors were EXACTLY 90% of Limited. (On some classifiers 10% was a gift. On others, it wasn't enough. It depends on the round count and reloads.) Well, that was the case. And, for the most part, it probably still is. (I just checked El Prez and that is still the case in Production ...though I don't think that is universal.) Is it like that across the board? I don't think it is. For example, and I forgot which classifier it is, L10 has a higher HF than limited in it. SS is using L10's HHF across the board. You can't really compare, well I guess you can try, the other divisions as they are to dissimilar. The closest I could come up with was open and limited. If you want to say production shooters are going to hit all As, or at the least the top tier ones, then compare those HHF with L10 and see where they are at. Well, I can tell you that it is biased low right now. There are 21 people that have a 85% or higher classification score in single stack. Matt, I don't see how its biased low with ONLY 21 shooters with 85% or higher. If it was biased low wouldn't there be more? In the end I think we'll all just have to agree to disagree on this one. Corey, once upon a time all L10 and Production classifierHHFs were set at 95% of the Limited HHFs; Revolver HHFs were set at 90%. Since that start (which involved all the 99 series classifiers) we've seen three rounds of new classifiers introduced (03, 06, and 08 Series). All of those came out of Nationals or Area Matches (possibly some sectionals as well) where they were shot by a large enough cross-section of competitors to generate HHFs tailored to the individual divisions..... That will happen with SS too --- by 2015 or so you should be half way there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Matt, I don't see how its biased low with ONLY 21 shooters with 85% or higher. If it was biased low wouldn't there be more? I meant the distribution of shooters is to the low end. Not that the HHF's are low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskySig Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 There is also the matter of the round count advantage that L10 holds over SS.That ain't going away either. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't too many classifier stages where shooters fire off 10 rounds before reloading or being completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I'm not missing the point --- you guys have decided that using SS gear is Slower than using L10 gear. Your test is cute, but I don't know what it will really tell us --- since we don't keep score in time. Take ten runs, add up the points and divide by the total time, and you have something that actually correlates to the way we score the game..... Rob Leatham has said on more than one occasion that nothing shoots as well for him as a SS --- in our game. You're talking about the advantages of L10 guns/gear (magwell, holster, holster position) but you're also at least potentially giving something up with the switch in gear. Nothing in this game is all gain, no loss..... Go ahead, shoot SS exclusively for a few years, then switch back to Limited Gear and shoot some L10 classifiers --- you might be surprised by what you notice, if you can keep an open mind..... If you've already decided though, it doesn't matter what you do. The results will either validate your decision, or if they don't you'll find a way to rationalize them away.... I've never shot a SS all that well, had a lot to do with lack of practice. I never thought that reloads were the problem however, as I could reload Wilson 8 rounders faster and more precisely into an S&A magwelled Colt than all doublestack mags I've ever tried to get into DS guns.... I agree Nik. Truth is, this thread is a PRIME example of that this game is indeed in the head. Attitude is everything. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I do think it is funny how the NON-SS Shooting members, umm, cough, uh, cough, like to tell us how L-10 is the same as Single Stack. About as much use as a blind person helping you choose a shirt and tie combination. Wow...OK then...in that same light... How about an A-class shooter telling the folks that have shoot 100% classifiers all about how it's done? How about laying off of the rude comments. I can't speak for others, but I'm not posting to win an argument against you Jay. I am just trying to share a perspective that is different from your own. Flex How many 100% SS's have you shot?????????? That's what I thought!!!! This is one of those threads where being right simply isn't relevant. J It does seem that way I have shot enough in the high cap divisions and in SS to say that no one is going to convince me that I can reload or draw a skinny gun just as fast as a wide body.No one is going to convince me that I can draw from a SS legal holster placed behind my hip bone as fast as I can draw from a speed holster that's placed several inches forward. I have timed myself through enough one shot drills to be able to see the difference. You do realize that the largest obstacle in being better with SS than L10 gear is in your head, right? And that it's possible to change that --- if you choose to..... Nik With all due respect, a shooter is going to be faster out of a holster that is in a more forward position, and he is going to be faster grabbing magazines that are in a more ergonomic position. It is just simple to see that the hands have a shorter distance to travel. Now it is only fractions of seconds, but that is what our sport is made up of. It is amazing to me that this argument/discussion is taking place. IF the holster placement and mag pouch placement is not a big deal, then lets see Open and Limited moved to the same position as SS. OH, now I can see the masses coming with the tar and feathers!!!! OPEN and Limited shooters have figured out the best/fastest way to get that first shot off, and the best and fastest way to do a reload, and neither are behind the hipbone. Sorry, that line of thinking does not work here. NEXT I was talking about mental limitations --- and you apparently subscribe to the same limits. So, I'll try this a different way: What's keeping you from achieving better Hit Factors with SS gear than you could achieve with L10 gear? Speed matters, points matter, however IMHO mindset matters more..... If you decide to, you should be able to make Master or Grandmaster with SS gear..... The focus on holsters, holster position and mag pouches is nothing but strategy for failure..... Just because many others do it one way, isn't a reason to follow them --- if it was Brian and Rob et al. wouldn't have revolutionized the way we shoot today..... And, since you brought up DP40: IPSC Standard's equipment divisions are also behind the hip bones... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...standard+reload DP40 managed pretty well, once he decided it was doable. In that thread, Phil Strader says his times are identical. DP's draw and reloads from behind the hip: .84 draw .82 load (1st pouch) .84 load (2nd pouch) .87 load (3rd pouch) DP can shoot faster than that under limited rules, i.e. holster and mag pouches where he wants!!! Now, you guys are all wet, and humoring yourselves, SS and L-10 are different in terms of holster and mag pouch location, and then you have the large magwell and the tapered mags, oh yeah JUST like SS!!!! What are you guys smoking????? Please refer to the blind guy helping with the shirt and tie combinations!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) Matt, I don't see how its biased low with ONLY 21 shooters with 85% or higher. If it was biased low wouldn't there be more? I meant the distribution of shooters is to the low end. Not that the HHF's are low. Gotcha Corey,once upon a time all L10 and Production classifierHHFs were set at 95% of the Limited HHFs; Revolver HHFs were set at 90%. Since that start (which involved all the 99 series classifiers) we've seen three rounds of new classifiers introduced (03, 06, and 08 Series). All of those came out of Nationals or Area Matches (possibly some sectionals as well) where they were shot by a large enough cross-section of competitors to generate HHFs tailored to the individual divisions..... That will happen with SS too --- by 2015 or so you should be half way there.... Nik, didn't know that...learn something new every day. I don't see how that is fair either BUT I can see doing that if you have zero data to go upon when the division is new. I guess what it boils down to is there just isn't enough data still? They have classifiers recorded from at least 05 that I know of but I guess a lot of people where shooting SS in SS then. Edited December 17, 2008 by steel1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Hey fellas... I know what we could do.... SoonerPast wrote: Is there a way to determine how the classified SS shooters are distributed among the classifications? And, in comparison to the distribution in other divisions? Even though the division is young, it would be interesting to know how the classifications are populated. You'd have to actually look at percentages NOT just the A, B, C, or D after the name. What throws a wrench into the works is that if you shoot any other division besides Single Stack and let's say you made it to B in production then that pulls all your other divisions that you have shot 4 classifiers in up to a "C" level, eventhough your percentages there may not be worthy if they had to stand on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 bkeeler on the first page wrote: I made A Class in L-10 with a skinny gun and Blade-tech holster and now I am shooting a wide body 2011 in Limited With a DOH Blade-Tech holster and can't seem to get out of B class.Just my .02 BK Limited is a bigger pond with much bigger fish. At least that is the theory that someone passed onto me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 For what it's worth... while standing still with my eyes closed I can get Glock 22 mags to seat, quickly, without a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) Dec 2008. USPSA Members classified in Singlestack SingleStack GM 3 M 66 A 120 B 299 C 770 D 422 Single Stack Classified members increased by 42 Alan Edited December 17, 2008 by Alan Meek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Alan I don't see a lot there. Not being a smart ass, as I have been in the recent past I don't think there is anything wrong with the skewed percentages as we are all (SS'ers that is) by the same falsely high HHF's. So it is not a big deal. I have been responding to comments from the NON-SS shooting peanut gallery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 AlanI don't see a lot there. Not being a smart ass, as I have been in the recent past I don't think there is anything wrong with the skewed percentages as we are all (SS'ers that is) by the same falsely high HHF's. So it is not a big deal. I have been responding to comments from the NON-SS shooting peanut gallery. Z, Just giving the numbers. As far as SS vs Lim-10. There is a difference and it is just not holster/mag placement on the belt. 9 rds vs 11rds is probably has more impact than holster placement. But the feel of a 1911 in my hand just feels so natural and comfortable. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Alan I agree, a 1911 is the best to shoot. As earlier stated, TGO has said the same thing too. My point all along has been that it is not "fair" to think that SS and L-10 are the same for classification purposes. But there are some doubters, mostly NON-SS shooters tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) There is also the matter of the round count advantage that L10 holds over SS.That ain't going away either. To the best of my knowledge, there aren't too many classifier stages where shooters fire off 10 rounds before reloading or being completed. There are are comstock classifiers that are 8 round and 16 round. In each case you have a 1 round cushion before you are forced to do an extra reload. That effectively turns it into a Virginia count for the SS. I can't speak for anyone else but when I have no margin for error I have to slow down a bit and make sure I get my hits. I might also add that you don't just get classifiers from shooting classifer stages. You can also get your score in major matches as a classifier. In that case, round count would definately come into play. I will agree with Nik on one thing. Attitude and belief are paramount in any successful human endevour. But so is reality. I'm tired of debating it. Good Night All. Edited December 17, 2008 by 38superman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Corey,once upon a time all L10 and Production classifierHHFs were set at 95% of the Limited HHFs; Revolver HHFs were set at 90%. Since that start (which involved all the 99 series classifiers) we've seen three rounds of new classifiers introduced (03, 06, and 08 Series). All of those came out of Nationals or Area Matches (possibly some sectionals as well) where they were shot by a large enough cross-section of competitors to generate HHFs tailored to the individual divisions..... That will happen with SS too --- by 2015 or so you should be half way there.... Nik, didn't know that...learn something new every day. I don't see how that is fair either BUT I can see doing that if you have zero data to go upon when the division is new. I guess what it boils down to is there just isn't enough data still? They have classifiers recorded from at least 05 that I know of but I guess a lot of people where shooting SS in SS then. O.K. --- it might not be fair, but the primary place where data is gathered is large matches, because that's where you'll find a group of the top shooters all shooting the classifier as if it was another stage. (That last bit is important too, because lets face it, if the Super Squad decided to shoot the classifier over and over in zero or hero mode, HHF would be even higher than they are now.) Since the data is primarily gathered at large matches, it simply takes time to accumulate it --- since no one wants to shoot a 30 stage all classifier match..... Production shooters chafed under this a bit too ---- but then we sucked it up, focused on the shooting within the requirements of the division, and got better..... Of course we also got new classifiers along the way that had HHFs that were set in competition.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Nik I am not bitching or complaining, simply stating the facts. I have not asked for anything to be changed either. I understand how things are, but I am not going to be told that SS and L-10 are the same regarding HHF's, because they are not. I have given plenty of examples and proof otherwise I don't see much to debate here. I think it is somewhat humorous that some here have decided to play the devil's advocate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putty Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Something to do on a Tuesday night. I will weigh in cause I am bored. SINGLE STACK RULES!!!! There , I feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) How about laying off of the rude comments. I can't speak for others, but I'm not posting to win an argument against you Jay. I am just trying to share a perspective that is different from your own. Flex In all fairness, you have gone beyond "trying to share a perspective that is different" from mine. You have been a devil's advocate. With irrefutable evidence/facts, you have continued to be contrary. Remember, or go back and read, I have ONLY been pointing out the facts, not asking for anything to be changed or griped that things are wrong in SS Edited for crappy spelling Edited December 17, 2008 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Jay, the facts you are pointing out are as you see them. I have a different perspective and a different understanding. I'm not playing devil's advocate here (though I do at times). In this case, I just believe you are mistaken and I wanted to share what I believed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Jay, the facts you are pointing out are as you see them. I have a different perspective and a different understanding.I'm not playing devil's advocate here (thought I do at times). In this case, I just believe you are mistaken and I wanted to share what I believed. Then we agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerPast Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Alan, thanks for that information. 70% of the classified shooters are either in C or D classes. Like Matt said, I guess we all are sort of clustered at the lower levels of classifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Alan, thanks for that information. 70% of the classified shooters are either in C or D classes. Like Matt said, I guess we all are sort of clustered at the lower levels of classifications. I'll post more data later tonight when I get home. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slip knot Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 The single stack nationals have been around for awhile, can't we use some of the hhf from that to help establish a base ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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