Single Stack scores

[steel1212]

The single stack nationals have been around for awhile, can't we use some of the hhf

from that to help establish a base ?

Do they use classifiers at the Single Stack nationals? If they did I would think that would be an excellent idea.

[zhunter]

The single stack nationals have been around for awhile, can't we use some of the hhf

from that to help establish a base ?

Slip

First of all, NICE avatar

You can only use a base when enough GM's have shot the classifier, SS Nats have only been in existence for 1 year so far as SS only became a recognized Division last year.

ON another note....

In a 400 meter race in the olympics, the runners are not starting in a straight line across the track. Why is that? Because the outer lanes would be forced to run farther to complete a full lap of the track as opposed to the runner on the inside lane. The same premise holds true in SS reloads. The magazines are located behind the hipbone, so, a shooter with Z speed hand speed, traveling to a Limited positioned magazine would be Z times lets say 20 inches ( 20 inches being the distance from the grip position to the magazine pouch in this example) times 2, as the hand has to move back to the gun to load the magazine into the gun. Well, for Single Stack, that same shooter with Z hand speed now is forced to reach Z times 23 inches (23 inches being the distance from the grip position when shooting to the mag pouch behind the hipbone in this example) times 2, once again as the hand has to return to the gun to load the magazine. So, it is easy to see that the same shooter (at WHATEVER skill level) needs his hand to travel 6 inches further in this example in order to make the reload. Now, in simple math:

2(Zx20) is less than 2(Zx23) EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!

So, if a given object, in this case the shooters weak hand, is traveling a given speed, it is going to take longer period of time to travel a longer distance, THIS is a irrefutable fact based on Physics!!!!!

There have been a lot of opinions expressed in this thread, the above is NOT an opinion, it is scientific fact.

I rest my case.

[slip knot]

So we are back to that 6" thing again. Must have spoke to my wife.

[zhunter]

So we are back to that 6" thing again. Must have spoke to my wife.

[ChuckS]

2(Zx20) is less than 2(Zx23) EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!

Not if Z <=0.

ETA:

Edited December 17, 2008 by ChuckS

[zhunter]

2(Zx20) is less than 2(Zx23) EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!

Not if Z <=0.

ETA:

There is always ONE wise guy in every group.

edited to add: I can always go back to my post and declare the Z is of a value greater than 0, but for this example, I figured even the naysayers would take that as a given

Edited December 17, 2008 by zhunter

[ChuckS]

2(Zx20) is less than 2(Zx23) EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!

Not if Z <=0.

ETA:

There is always ONE wise guy in every group.

I think there is more than one here!

Edited December 17, 2008 by ChuckS

[zhunter]

I think there is more than one, here

I think post #77 eliminated all but the closed minded ones, and they are never going to learn anything anyway, by virtue of the closed mindedness.

Edited December 17, 2008 by zhunter

[HuskySig]

zhunter,

I understand and agree with the premise of what you posted about distances to the rearmost magazine pouch that would affect reload times for SS and Prod versus L-10. But again I point you to the Dave Sevigny at L-10 Nationals this year. He used the exact same belt/magazine pouch/holster setup from Production Nationals. Didn't seem to slow him down too much against all the guys who shot Limited Nationals and then used their same belt/magazine pouch setups for L-10 Nationals.

[zhunter]

zhunter,

I understand and agree with the premise of what you posted about distances to the rearmost magazine pouch that would affect reload times for SS and Prod versus L-10. But again I point you to the Dave Sevigny at L-10 Nationals this year. He used the exact same belt/magazine pouch/holster setup from Production Nationals. Didn't seem to slow him down too much against all the guys who shot Limited Nationals and then used their same belt/magazine pouch setups for L-10 Nationals.

Husky, good point, but......

Dave obviously had done a ton of practicing, and, just hypothesizing here, chose to NOT move his holster and mag pouch locations as he had trained so hard with them in the Production Division location. NOW, IF he had time to practice and feel comfortable/confident in the Limited 10 holster and mag pouch position, it is EASY to see from my premise in post #77 that he would have been even faster.

So, hats off and congratulations to Dave Sevigny, but your argument/line of thinking is irrelevant or at best has been scientifically ( via Physics ) proven wrong.

[HuskySig]

zhunter,

I understand and agree with the premise of what you posted about distances to the rearmost magazine pouch that would affect reload times for SS and Prod versus L-10. But again I point you to the Dave Sevigny at L-10 Nationals this year. He used the exact same belt/magazine pouch/holster setup from Production Nationals. Didn't seem to slow him down too much against all the guys who shot Limited Nationals and then used their same belt/magazine pouch setups for L-10 Nationals.

Husky, good point, but......

Dave obviously had done a ton of practicing, and, just hypothesizing here, chose to NOT move his holster and mag pouch locations as he had trained so hard with them in the Production Division location. NOW, IF he had time to practice and feel comfortable/confident in the Limited 10 holster and mag pouch position, it is EASY to see from my premise in post #77 that he would have been even faster.

So, hats off and congratulations to Dave Sevigny, but your argument/line of thinking is irrelevant or at best has been scientifically ( via Physics ) proven wrong.

Did the guys who normally shoot Limited not practice equally as hard as Mr. Sevigny? Or was he just lucky?

Around here (Brian Enos Forum) people post that the biggest difference between the higher classification levels is economy of motion, becoming more efficient during a course of fire. Perhaps Mr. Sevigny, with his Production legal gear, is more efficient than everyone else with their Limited legal gear?

Physics and science has been wrong before. Before Roger Bannister, common perception was that running a four minute mile was impossible. It's a good thing he didn't listen. Maybe Mr. Sevigny is doing a similar thing with the position of his gear?

[atbarr]

But again I point you to the Dave Sevigny at L-10 Nationals this year. He used the exact same belt/magazine pouch/holster setup from Production Nationals.

Most of us are not a "Dave Sevigny"

A.T.

[zhunter]

Husky

You are comparing apples and oranges.

Let me explain.

You are comparing one shooter to another. Now you are talking about two different variables, meaning Dave Sevigny's speed against say Ted Puente's speed. If both are of equal speed, then the shooter who has a shorter distance from grip to magazine pouch position is going to be faster, if everything else is equal.

So, you are loosing my point here, it is about ONE shooter and the time difference it takes THAT shooter to do a reload with Limited 10 gear against the SAME shooter doing a reload with Single Stack gear.

You are comparing different shooters, I am using the same shooter in different disciplines for my example as a point of reference. My point has always been, that it is not a fair assessment of TRUE Single Stack Classifier percentages IF you base the HHF on Limited 10 because of the differing distances the hand has to travel as detailed in post #77

Dave Sevigny is an outstanding shooter, possibly to the extent that he can overcome the extra distance his magazine pouches are from his hands when in the shooting position and compete in Limited or Limited 10

I hope this puts to rest the Dave Sevigny line of thinking

[HuskySig]

There are are comstock classifiers that are 8 round and 16 round.

In each case you have a 1 round cushion before you are forced to do an extra reload.

That effectively turns it into a Virginia count for the SS.

I can't speak for anyone else but when I have no margin for error I have to slow down a bit and make sure I get my hits.

I would argue that for the top GM shooters, margin for error doesn't factor into their plan. For an eight round classifier stage, they have one round too many. Go to the USPSA web page and look through the Top 20 shooters page. You can pick pretty much any one of the top GMs, in any division, and their classifier scoring history will show multiple 100% runs. Filter out their major match wins and their scores on actual classifier stages are still multiple 100% scores. You'll see a scattering of low to mid 90% runs too. They're not shooting with the "Hero or zero" mentality. It's skill pure and simple.

I might also add that you don't just get classifiers from shooting classifer stages.

You can also get your score in major matches as a classifier.

In that case, round count would definately come into play.

I'm confused. At major matches SS and L-10 shooters are scored separately. How does round count factor into the discussion of major match bumps?

[zhunter]

Physics and science has been wrong before. Before Roger Bannister, common perception was that running a four minute mile was impossible. It's a good thing he didn't listen. Maybe Mr. Sevigny is doing a similar thing with the position of his gear?

BTW

Roger Bannister and all those who are running the mile are competing over the SAME distance!!!!

[zhunter]

I would argue that for the top GM shooters, margin for error doesn't factor into their plan. It's skill pure and simple.

Agreed

[HuskySig]

Physics and science has been wrong before. Before Roger Bannister, common perception was that running a four minute mile was impossible. It's a good thing he didn't listen. Maybe Mr. Sevigny is doing a similar thing with the position of his gear?

BTW

Roger Bannister and all those who are running the mile are competing over the SAME distance!!!!

You don't think Mr. Sevigny and Mr. Puente ran the same distance at L-10 Nationals?

[zhunter]

Physics and science has been wrong before. Before Roger Bannister, common perception was that running a four minute mile was impossible. It's a good thing he didn't listen. Maybe Mr. Sevigny is doing a similar thing with the position of his gear?

BTW

Roger Bannister and all those who are running the mile are competing over the SAME distance!!!!

You don't think Mr. Sevigny and Mr. Puente ran the same distance at L-10 Nationals?

LMAO

I think they did, but IF Mr. Sevigny's mags were in Production Division position and Mr. Puente's were in a more forward, i.e. Limited 10 location, then Mr. Sevigny's hands traveled a further distance, IF that is the case, and they finished tied, then it was Mr. Sevigny who had the faster hands to his magazines and back to the gun for the reload. back at ya

[Nik Habicht]

I think there is more than one, here

I think post #77 eliminated all but the closed minded ones, and they are never going to learn anything anyway, by virtue of the closed mindedness.

This sentence coming from a guy who has made up his mind that he will be slower with SS gear is simply priceless.....

...Clearly I don't need to continue my argument, when you're making it so eloquently..... :roflol:

[zhunter]

I think there is more than one, here

I think post #77 eliminated all but the closed minded ones, and they are never going to learn anything anyway, by virtue of the closed mindedness.

This sentence coming from a guy who has made up his mind that he will be slower with SS gear is simply priceless.....

...Clearly I don't need to continue my argument, when you're making it so eloquently..... :roflol:

Nik

IF you read post #77, then you will see my line of thinking. NO, my line of facts!!!!!

So, rather than rehash the evidence I have given, I will leave it to you to dispute the facts of post#77. I am happy to listen to scientific/mathmatical lines of thinking, but the OPINIONS that have been posted have had no basis.

So Nik, feel free

[Flexmoney]

Most of the top shooters do wear their holster to the side. All the CR Speed shooters do. Some of the Safariland shooters of fame (Robbie and TJ) fudged forward a bit.

I placed my holster in front of my hip when I was shooting Limited. I can't speak for others, but I can tell you why I did so. I did it because that is where I assumed it went. And, thus...that is what I trained with and became used to.

Now, having shoot Production for a few years, I know that holster position isn't important. (there is an argument to be made on holsters, but position isn't it).

My draw speed maxs out at about the same place whether I am shooting my race rig or my Production rig. (about 0.85s for me is about my true max) Oh...and before somebody brings it up...I don't use a DOH in production (my Prod holster would be SS legal).

Now, I know we can all go all over the internet and pull pictures of shooters and their holsters. But, the issue that was brought up was distance on the belt. There are enough cream of the crop shooters that wear their holster on the side that I think we can call that a dead issue.

---------------------

That leaves the distance to the mag pouch. 3 inches is 3 inches. No disputing that.

The question is...is it a factor? I have to travel that same distance in Production division. It is the least of my worries when executing a reload.

I consider a reload a race between my gun hand and my going for the mag hand. Often, the mag hand wins. My gun hand has to shift the grip, to hit the mag release, orient the gun to let the mag drop cleanly (reduce friction), and get the gun into position to receive the fresh magazine. Meanwhile the support hand is snapping to a fresh mag and snapping back to the mag hole. I often find myself (briefly) with mag in hand, waiting for the old mag to clear the gun.

**** Here is a tip. Most shooters are slow to get on the mag release. That systematically...and sympathetically...slows down the entire reloading process. ****

For me, the distance to the mag pouch is not an issue. And, even if it is...at best...it's a minuscule part of the reload itself. And, the reload itself is even a smaller part in the overall performance on a stage (even a classifier).

---------------------

I do concede that it all adds up. However, when we get down to it...we are talking about thresholds here. How fast is fast enough?

I have turned in GM and 100% classifiers while doing reloads that are no faster than 1.25 seconds.

DP40 (3yrs ago, as a Master class) showed that he could these numbers (note: going 3 inches back on his belt for the next mag each time didn't show even a half of a tenth of difference per reload):

DP's draw and reloads from behind the hip:

.84 draw

.82 load (1st pouch)

.84 load (2nd pouch)

.87 load (3rd pouch)

Anybody that can put up those numbers is more than able to post GM and 100% classifier scores...in any division.

If they aren't doing so...then something else is standing in the way.

[Flexmoney]

I am happy to listen to scientific/mathmatical lines of thinking, but the OPINIONS that have been posted have had no basis.

I'll prove your position for you.

I think that DP40's numbers show that...going back 3 inches on the belt does cost time. How much time?

It is safe to assume that there are about 3 inches between each mag pouch on his belt. The time difference between reload #1 and reload #2 is 0.03 seconds. And, the time difference between reload #2 and reload #3 is 0.03 seconds.

84 draw

.82 load (1st pouch)

.84 load (2nd pouch)

.87 load (3rd pouch)

Therefore, the distance traveled cost 0.03 seconds.

I ran that difference on our good friend, El Prez. Given a 10hf (60 points in 6 seconds) the extra reload time converts that 10hf run into a 9.95hf run (60 points in 6.03 seconds).

You are looking at a difference of about 0.46 of a percentage. To give you the benefit of doubt, let's round that to half a percent

That proves you point. You are correct. The distance to the mag does matter.

USPSA should adjust the HHF's in Single Stack to be 99.5% of Limited.

[zhunter]

Most of the top shooters do wear their holster to the side. All the CR Speed shooters do. Some of the Safariland shooters of fame (Robbie and TJ) fudged forward a bit.

I placed my holster in front of my hip when I was shooting Limited. I can't speak for others, but I can tell you why I did so. I did it because that is where I assumed it went. And, thus...that is what I trained with and became used to.

Now, having shoot Production for a few years, I know that holster position isn't important. (there is an argument to be made on holsters, but position isn't it).

My draw speed maxs out at about the same place whether I am shooting my race rig or my Production rig. (about 0.85s for me is about my true max) Oh...and before somebody brings it up...I don't use a DOH in production (my Prod holster would be SS legal).

Now, I know we can all go all over the internet and pull pictures of shooters and their holsters. But, the issue that was brought up was distance on the belt. There are enough cream of the crop shooters that wear their holster on the side that I think we can call that a dead issue.

Notice that I have not made ONE argument about holster position, as I believe that I can draw as fast from my Kydex SS riga as i can from a race holster, so I have NO argument or counter-point here

---------------------

That leaves the distance to the mag pouch. 3 inches is 3 inches. No disputing that.

The question is...is it a factor? How can distance of travel NOT be a factor when all other factors are equal? I have to travel that same distance in Production division. It is the least of my worries when executing a reload. I am not saying that the distance your hand has to travel is a worry in executing a reload, but the further the hand has to travel, it HAS to be slower.

I consider a reload a race between my gun hand and my going for the mag hand. Often, the mag hand wins. My gun hand has to shift the grip, to hit the mag release, orient the gun to let the mag drop cleanly (reduce friction), and get the gun into position to receive the fresh magazine. Meanwhile the support hand is snapping to a fresh mag and snapping back to the mag hole. I often find myself (briefly) with mag in hand, waiting for the old mag to clear the gun. I am lucky, maybe because of SS and the narrowness of the SS grip helps, but I don't have to shift the gun in my hand to hit the mag release button, and possibly because of this, I have never had to wait for a free-falling mag to clear the gun, so this is not an issue for me.

**** Here is a tip. Most shooters are slow to get on the mag release. That systematically...and sympathetically...slows down the entire reloading process. ****

For me, the distance to the mag pouch is not an issue. And, even if it is...at best...it's a minuscule part of the reload itself. Isn't our game made up of Minuscule (read tenths and thousandths of seconds), which makes this "minuscule part of the reload" VERY pertinent to my line of reasoning? And, the reload itself is even a smaller part in the overall performance on a stage (even a classifier). The reload is part of the classifier, and with it being part of the classifier, it's "minuscule part" being slower in SS gear it makes a difference. Many of the classifiers are really nothing more that stand an shoot speed shoots, which place MORE emphasis on the very skills that we practice in dry fire, which are draws and reloads. The splits and transitions are the same for major PF's

---------------------

I do concede that it all adds up. However, when we get down to it...we are talking about thresholds here. How fast is fast enough? Fast enough is not the issue, the issue is, using the HHF's of Limited 10 to calculate the percentages of a different discipline/Division, which I am contending skews the TRUE percentages of the SS'ers.

I have turned in GM and 100% classifiers while doing reloads that are no faster than 1.25 seconds. I don't see this as pertinent to the point I am making. It was not your reload in that 100% classifier, it was the other skills, like splits and transitions that allowed you to attain that 100% in that example you have given, taking into account it was a stand and shoot and you were not reloading on the move to a different shooting position/box

DP40 (3yrs ago, as a Master class) showed that he could these numbers (note: going 3 inches back on his belt for the next mag each time didn't show even a half of a tenth of difference per reload):

DP's draw and reloads from behind the hip:

.84 draw

.82 load (1st pouch)

.84 load (2nd pouch)

.87 load (3rd pouch)

Anybody that can put up those numbers is more than able to post GM and 100% classifier scores...in any division.

If they aren't doing so...then something else is standing in the way.

Agreed, but could he possibly go faster if the mag pouches are in a more ergonomic position? My premise in Post #77 would indicate yes!

My responses are in red to address things point by point.

[steel1212]

With that being said, if equpiment has no merit in the speed/accuracy at which we shoot then why do we have different HHF for the divisions?

[zhunter]

I am happy to listen to scientific/mathmatical lines of thinking, but the OPINIONS that have been posted have had no basis.

I'll prove your position for you.

I think that DP40's numbers show that...going back 3 inches on the belt does cost time. How much time?

It is safe to assume that there are about 3 inches between each mag pouch on his belt. The time difference between reload #1 and reload #2 is 0.03 seconds. And, the time difference between reload #2 and reload #3 is 0.03 seconds.

84 draw

.82 load (1st pouch)

.84 load (2nd pouch)

.87 load (3rd pouch)

Therefore, the distance traveled cost 0.03 seconds.

I ran that difference on our good friend, El Prez. Given a 10hf (60 points in 6 seconds) the extra reload time converts that 10hf run into a 9.95hf run (60 points in 6.03 seconds).

You are looking at a difference of about four tenths of a percentage.

That proves you point. You are correct. The distance to the mag does matter.

USPSA should adjust the HHF's in Single Stack to be 99.6% of Limited.

I don't see a difference between Limited and Limited 10 in the El Prez Classifier. Same equipment and the 10 round limit is not a factor in this example.

I get the feeling that this post was made tongue in cheek