kgunz11 Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 As someone looking in from the outside, I don't shoot L-10 or SS, is the art and skill of the SS reload being done away with with the development of the Techwell? It seems like you can make a SS magazine chute nearly as large of a target as a double stack magazine well. As for the position of magazines and holster differences between L-10 and SS. Seems like Dave Sevigny did pretty well at L-10 Nationals using Production equipment. Aside from probably switching to a Glock 35, his belt setup was identical to how it was setup for Production. For some folks, leaving things where they are is faster than moving them and trying to get use to everything being in a different place. Sevigny is fast and successful where his gear is, why move it and potentially create a bumble? And so you know, the skinny mag can be difficult to insert, magwell or not. A lot of the issue is in the mag used, but the addition of a bigger magwell does help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 (edited) As someone looking in from the outside, I don't shoot L-10 or SS, is the art and skill of the SS reload being done away with with the development of the Techwell? It seems like you can make a SS magazine chute nearly as large of a target as a double stack magazine well. Husky I along with a few other have done a lot of TESTING and most will tell you that the large SV/Techwell magazine wells are must more important to grip and indexing than to the actual reloading. You CAN'T slop a SS reload, so in my opinion the magwell is not going to help. So Z, what you are saying is if SS used it's own HHF, our classifier scores might be a higher percentage and an A class shooter might in essence be a Master class shooter if he was compared to the other HHF scores of people shooting in SS?How much of a difference is there in the HHF they are currently using and what has been shot by a GM in SS? Yeah, David, Phil, TGO, TJ and the others might be a little slower with a SS rig than with a hi-cap, but is it enough to really make a difference or is your argument based on principal? Kunz Yes, our percentages would be a bit higher, and someone who, like Corey who is about 0.50% from "A" Class would most likely already be there. Yes, I do believe that the Super Squaders are a little slower with SS gear as opposed to Limited/Open/Limited-10 gear. The differences are smaller than us average shooters, but the difference it there. The proof is in how, when given a choice via NO limits with regards to holster/mag pouch placement, they place their holsters and mag pouches on their belts. The evidence is there, just look at the photos of the top shooters and where their gear is placed Edited December 16, 2008 by zhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Oh I agree with you 100%. In situations like Corey's, yeah he might be an A. It might only be a subtle difference, but then like you already stated, this game is won in tenths of a second 1 stage at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 (edited) I was always told the clock reads in hundreths.. Open El prez : 5.05 / all points is approx 100% add 20/100ths of a second with all points approx 96% That's a tenth on the draw and a tenth on the reload....food for thought... Edited December 16, 2008 by boz1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impala ss Posted December 16, 2008 Author Share Posted December 16, 2008 BOY-did I open up a can of worms! Nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks SS classifiers need some tweaking. I just hope it happens. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks SS classifiers need some tweaking. I just hope it happens. Frank Bitching here ain't going to help. What can we do, to get this changed. A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks SS classifiers need some tweaking. I just hope it happens. Frank Bitching here ain't going to help. What can we do, to get this changed. A.T. A.T. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it is NOT going to change. I was simply stating the facts of Single Stack and how our classifications and percentages are a bit skewed. I do think it is funny how the NON-SS Shooting members, umm, cough, uh, cough, like to tell us how L-10 is the same as Single Stack. About as much use as a blind person helping you choose a shirt and tie combination. It is what it is, learn to love it, we don't shoot Single Stack because it is easy, we do it for the love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 LIke I said earlier the super squad guys are going to set the bar regardless and I'm going to have to deal with it where they set it. I just want the bar to be set with SS legal gear. Now if Robbie comes out and puts a HHF on the El Prez that is higher than what it is in L10 so be it I can live with that. Just don't sit there and tell me there is no difference because both have 10 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 A.T.Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it is NOT going to change. Ok, I'm a newbe (first year) why not? Don't "our" leaders, listen to their members? Inquiry minds, want to know. A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 (edited) A.T.Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it is NOT going to change. Ok, I'm a newbe (first year) why not? Don't "our" leaders, listen to their members? Inquiry minds, want to know. A.T. I'm not going there.... Edited December 16, 2008 by steel1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 A.T.Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it is NOT going to change. Ok, I'm a newbe (first year) why not? Don't "our" leaders, listen to their members? Inquiry minds, want to know. A.T. I'm not going there.... Me either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Luke... I am your father... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 I do think it is funny how the NON-SS Shooting members, umm, cough, uh, cough, like to tell us how L-10 is the same as Single Stack. About as much use as a blind person helping you choose a shirt and tie combination. Wow...OK then...in that same light... How about an A-class shooter telling the folks that have shoot 100% classifiers all about how it's done? How about laying off of the rude comments. I can't speak for others, but I'm not posting to win an argument against you Jay. I am just trying to share a perspective that is different from your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 How about an A-class shooter telling the folks that have shoot 100% classifiers all about how it's done? Snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I do think it is funny how the NON-SS Shooting members, umm, cough, uh, cough, like to tell us how L-10 is the same as Single Stack. About as much use as a blind person helping you choose a shirt and tie combination. Wow...OK then...in that same light... How about an A-class shooter telling the folks that have shoot 100% classifiers all about how it's done? How about laying off of the rude comments. I can't speak for others, but I'm not posting to win an argument against you Jay. I am just trying to share a perspective that is different from your own. Kyle, you trying to play devils advocate or something Let me flip it one more time. What if limited used open classifier HHF? Basically same round count because I can't think of a 25+ round classifier where the big stick would come into play. I know what you going to say, comp/optics. Other than that all things are equal right? I know for a fact if you put an open gun in my hand I'm going to shoot a lower HF than with my limited gun, probably than with my SS. So the super open shooters are going to put up the HHF. The guys that shoot limited are going to be stuck with that HHF. You'll end up guys that should be up in higher class stuck down low because of the open HHF in limited. Theoretically making limited a harder class to move up in. With that being said, say you have a guy that only shoots SS, because that is all he has or choice. He is stuck in the lower classes because of the HHF posted by the L10 shooters. Now in the end it still doesn't change much a A class SS is a A class SSer across the board. I still find it hard to believe that there is only what 3 GMs after a year of shooting. I know what Matt said earlier that most of the top guys only shoot SS before the WSSC or SSC but it still seems weird that there wouldn't be more up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 A.T.Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it is NOT going to change. Ok, I'm a newbe (first year) why not? Don't "our" leaders, listen to their members? Inquiry minds, want to know. A.T. While I don't know the inner workings of the OZ... Single-Stack division...like Production, Revolver, and Limited-10 divisions...became a division without any data to base the classifier High Hit Factors on. They hadn't been shot by anyone. And, to a large degree that is still the case. There just isn't enough quality data to give the division stand-alone HHF's...yet. And, that is still the case with the other divisions too. Production still has HHF's that are based off of Limited division. So, I don't think there is any bone to be had with "leaders not listening". That just isn't a fair assessment to make from this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 This is one of those threads where being right simply isn't relevant. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 It's not just Single-stack. What if limited used open classifier HHF? What if...Limited-10 had EXACTLY the same High Hit Factors as Limited. (Forget that L-10 has to do a reload on Times-Two and Limited doesn't.) What if...Production High Hit Factors were EXACTLY 95% of Limited. (I always thought of that as a 5% gift. Minor doesn't matter, as the top shooters are hitting Alphas.) What if...Revolver High Hit Factors were EXACTLY 90% of Limited. (On some classifiers 10% was a gift. On others, it wasn't enough. It depends on the round count and reloads.) Well, that was the case. And, for the most part, it probably still is. (I just checked El Prez and that is still the case in Production ...though I don't think that is universal.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerPast Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Is there a way to determine how the classified SS shooters are distributed among the classifications? And, in comparison to the distribution in other divisions? Even though the division is young, it would be interesting to know how the classifications are populated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Well, I can tell you that it is biased low right now. There are 21 people that have a 85% or higher classification score in single stack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I have shot enough in the high cap divisions and in SS to say that no one is going to convince me that I can reload or draw a skinny gun just as fast as a wide body.No one is going to convince me that I can draw from a SS legal holster placed behind my hip bone as fast as I can draw from a speed holster that's placed several inches forward. I have timed myself through enough one shot drills to be able to see the difference. You do realize that the largest obstacle in being better with SS than L10 gear is in your head, right? And that it's possible to change that --- if you choose to..... Nik With all due respect, a shooter is going to be faster out of a holster that is in a more forward position, and he is going to be faster grabbing magazines that are in a more ergonomic position. It is just simple to see that the hands have a shorter distance to travel. Now it is only fractions of seconds, but that is what our sport is made up of. It is amazing to me that this argument/discussion is taking place. IF the holster placement and mag pouch placement is not a big deal, then lets see Open and Limited moved to the same position as SS. OH, now I can see the masses coming with the tar and feathers!!!! OPEN and Limited shooters have figured out the best/fastest way to get that first shot off, and the best and fastest way to do a reload, and neither are behind the hipbone. Sorry, that line of thinking does not work here. NEXT I was talking about mental limitations --- and you apparently subscribe to the same limits. So, I'll try this a different way: What's keeping you from achieving better Hit Factors with SS gear than you could achieve with L10 gear? Speed matters, points matter, however IMHO mindset matters more..... If you decide to, you should be able to make Master or Grandmaster with SS gear..... The focus on holsters, holster position and mag pouches is nothing but strategy for failure..... Just because many others do it one way, isn't a reason to follow them --- if it was Brian and Rob et al. wouldn't have revolutionized the way we shoot today..... And, since you brought up DP40: IPSC Standard's equipment divisions are also behind the hip bones... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...standard+reload DP40 managed pretty well, once he decided it was doable. In that thread, Phil Strader says his times are identical. DP's draw and reloads from behind the hip: .84 draw .82 load (1st pouch) .84 load (2nd pouch) .87 load (3rd pouch) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks SS classifiers need some tweaking. I just hope it happens. Frank Bitching here ain't going to help. What can we do, to get this changed. A.T. A.T. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it is NOT going to change. I was simply stating the facts of Single Stack and how our classifications and percentages are a bit skewed. I do think it is funny how the NON-SS Shooting members, umm, cough, uh, cough, like to tell us how L-10 is the same as Single Stack. About as much use as a blind person helping you choose a shirt and tie combination. It is what it is, learn to love it, we don't shoot Single Stack because it is easy, we do it for the love I seem to remember some Production HHF changing a few years ago. Y'all should be happy that you're not finishing year 3 of the experiment, stressing over whether or not you have a permanent home or not.... If other divisions are any indications at least some of the HHFs will be adjusted --- once there are enough classifier scores.... And some of you will improve to earn your M and GM cards too..... When I started in this game Mikulek was the only Revolver GM, now it looks like he has company..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I was talking about mental limitations --- and you apparently subscribe to the same limits. So, I'll try this a different way: What's keeping you from achieving better Hit Factors with SS gear than you could achieve with L10 gear? Speed matters, points matter, however IMHO mindset matters more.....If you decide to, you should be able to make Master or Grandmaster with SS gear..... The focus on holsters, holster position and mag pouches is nothing but strategy for failure..... Just because many others do it one way, isn't a reason to follow them --- if it was Brian and Rob et al. wouldn't have revolutionized the way we shoot today..... Wow... that is a pretty powerful philosophy, and I too subscribe to that way of thinking. I have not always had the top notch equipment and had to learn to beat those that did with what I had. It worked in archery. It's discipline, dedication, practice, training, and mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Here is the breakout of the number of members by class in SS from the Nov Classifications. SingleStack GM 3 M 61 A 115 B 289 C 752 D 418 I will do the Dec update and post that later Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 (edited) It's not just Single-stack. What if limited used open classifier HHF? What if...Limited-10 had EXACTLY the same High Hit Factors as Limited. (Forget that L-10 has to do a reload on Times-Two and Limited doesn't.) What if...Production High Hit Factors were EXACTLY 95% of Limited. (I always thought of that as a 5% gift. Minor doesn't matter, as the top shooters are hitting Alphas.) What if...Revolver High Hit Factors were EXACTLY 90% of Limited. (On some classifiers 10% was a gift. On others, it wasn't enough. It depends on the round count and reloads.) Well, that was the case. And, for the most part, it probably still is. (I just checked El Prez and that is still the case in Production ...though I don't think that is universal.) Is it like that across the board? I don't think it is. For example, and I forgot which classifier it is, L10 has a higher HF than limited in it. SS is using L10's HHF across the board. You can't really compare, well I guess you can try, the other divisions as they are to dissimilar. The closest I could come up with was open and limited. If you want to say production shooters are going to hit all As, or at the least the top tier ones, then compare those HHF with L10 and see where they are at. Well, I can tell you that it is biased low right now. There are 21 people that have a 85% or higher classification score in single stack. Matt, I don't see how its biased low with ONLY 21 shooters with 85% or higher. If it was biased low wouldn't there be more? In the end I think we'll all just have to agree to disagree on this one. Edited December 17, 2008 by steel1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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