rtr Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 See attached stage description. First shooter of the squad steps up to shoot. Before or during LAMR he turns to me (the RO) and says "I'm going to step back", (he may have also said "and shoot" not sure). I said "ok". On the buzzer he steps back a couple steps, engages the 5 targets on the left with 2 rounds each. He engaged all of them outside the shooting area. He then finishes the stage without any further procedurals or issues. After ULASC, I asked the MD and stage designer who was on the squad if the stage description required that the targets be engaged from within the shooting area (I did not know at that point as I had not read the stage description, although I had asked someone to look at what the start position/condition was before I started the shooter). He informed me that the stage required that all shots be taken within the shooting area. I informed the shooter and clipboard RO that there should be 10 procedurals. The shooter protested my call, clipboard RO advised him to take it up with the MD since he was 20 feet away. MD backed up the call. Shooter spent quite awhile debating the call with the MD and other shooters on the squad. He eventually left the match even though he wasn't done shooting. The shooter (who by the way is not a brand new shooter) seemed to feel that he had asked me if it was ok to shoot. He clearly did not ask me if it was ok to shoot from there, just was informing me that he was going to step back. Obviously this whole thing had a less than stellar turnout. So should I as the RO have done something differently? If so what? PPPS_08_47.DOC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 curious as to what the shooter's argument was for shooting outside the marked shooting area.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 You did nothing wrong, although you should have read the stage description, but in this case that would not have changed the outcome. The shooter was either oblivious or was simply trying to cheat. At the very least he was a poor sportsman for taking his marbles and leaving. I've seen that more than once and it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't get my way or I'm not shooting well, so I'll just create a stink and leave. You, the MD, and probably all the other shooters were right. He alone was wrong. At least that's my take given what you've provided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 (edited) I believe that it is ultimately the shooter's responsibility to clarify any doubts about the stage before he/she begins shooting. There may have been some miscommunication between the shooter and the RO but, once the MD sides with one of you, that's usually the end of the debate. I hope that the shooter understands this and chooses to continue shooting the Pueblo matches. For the record: I have stepped past fault lines in the past and (in one occasion) shot half of a stage from a non-approved shooting area. Since I wasn't doing anything unsafe the RO just let me shoot away to my heart's content. When I was done shooting she told me what I had done wrong. Believe me when I tell you that I have never done that again. That was a valuable lesson. :Edited to add: In my story I wasn't trying to cheat. I was just oblivious to "fault lines". Edited November 10, 2008 by Cy Soto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I'm new to this (1st year shooting), but it looks to me like this fellow is a "Gamer". Don't worry about it! Stay Safe, A.T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted November 10, 2008 Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 curious as to what the shooter's argument was for shooting outside the marked shooting area.. I didn't participate in the ensuing debate. But the impression I got was that when he told me he was going to step back he thought he was asking me if it was ok to do so, and since I didn't tell him it would gain him procedurals that he deserved a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I have one suggestion --- if you're going to RO someone, it's helpful to have read/understood the course description. Applying procedurals, answering questions, knowing what to look for (is the start box part of the free fire zone? Does the shooter have to step out of it/into the FFZ to legally be able to engage targets? Are there props/monkey motions/Strong or Weak hand only shots/Level one match exemptions?) are all dependent on knowing the stage. That said, it's incumbent on the shooter to know the same information, and then to base his plan of attack on that knowledge and the current edition of the rules. Had you understood the stage procedure/course description in its entirety, would your encounter with the shooter have changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 curious as to what the shooter's argument was for shooting outside the marked shooting area.. I didn't participate in the ensuing debate. But the impression I got was that when he told me he was going to step back he thought he was asking me if it was ok to do so, and since I didn't tell him it would gain him procedurals that he deserved a reshoot. That's not your responsibility. Remember, coaching is against the rules. I would coach a new shooter, but you have implied (I believe) that this shooter was experienced enough to know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted November 10, 2008 Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 Had you understood the stage procedure/course description in its entirety, would your encounter with the shooter have changed? No, and had I thought that he was asking me if it was ok (meaning wouldn't incur procedurals) to shoot from behind the shooting area I would have clarified the point BEFORE starting him. With that said you are correct that I could have been better prepared for this stage as an RO (and probably as a shooter but thats another story). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Hints to a seasoned shooter shouldn't be an SO's job. That being said I'd hope the COF would be explained before hand along with the shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 You did nothing wrong in this case but there is a lesson to be learned from this situation. In the future make sure that the stage description is read verbatim before the five minute walk through. If, after the reading, there are any questions that cannot be answered from the written stage description call over the MD. After that it is up to the shooter to know and remember the stage rules before he comes up to shoot. If part of his arguement was the fact that you did not correct him when he stated that he was going to step back there is no requirement that you do so. If you had done so you could have been assesed with a procedural for coaching and he might have been nailed with one also. CYa, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronEqualizer Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Would he have a valid argument under rule....... 3.2.2 The Range Official in charge of a course of fire must read out the written stage briefing verbatim to each squad. AL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Just working from the drawing provided, I assume there was a rear fault line as shown. If so, and this shooter is as experienced as you say, he would/should know better than to try stepping out of the defined shooting area and blazing away at targets. And he should know that simply asking an RO if he can is a pretty lame approach since the RO doesn't have the authority to make such an exception. ETA: Nik is spot-on about understanding the stage before going to the line as an RO. It will make your life easier if you understand the stage requirements beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Would he have a valid argument under rule.......3.2.2 The Range Official in charge of a course of fire must read out the written stage briefing verbatim to each squad. AL No, because the rules do not make any provisions for what is to happen if 3.2.2 is not followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Chris, I have yet to see or hear of a decision by Lizard or Hoser that was wrong in a shooting match, period. This isn't a new shooter? Next issue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscgal Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I was at this match today and heard the same walk through as this shooter, with the stage briefing read verbatim. It stated that all targets must be engaged from within the shooting area, which, by the way was clearly delineated by walls and fault lines. Once in the starting box you should not expect the RO to yea or ney your plan. When I tell an RO which way I'm going to be moving it's so he/she can be safely out of my way (for which many RO's who know me are thankful ;~} As the shooter at the start position, or as the RO I would not expect any further conversation other than 'make ready' or 'stand by'. Unless of course, the direction I was going to head would be a safety concern. Have a question?? The written stage discription (which at this match is in the same format as you will find at the Nationals and readily available on the stage) is the 1st place you should look for an answer. If more clarification is needed go to the MD. Otherwise you're taking a chance AND earning all the appropriate penalties - Been there done that!! IMHO, the RO and MD did their jobs well. Hopefully this shooter will put his 'big boy boxers' on and come to the next match a little wiser! ipscgal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Zaretsky Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 See attached stage description.First shooter of the squad steps up to shoot. Before or during LAMR he turns to me (the RO) and says "I'm going to step back", (he may have also said "and shoot" not sure). I said "ok". On the buzzer he steps back a couple steps, engages the 5 targets on the left with 2 rounds each. He engaged all of them outside the shooting area. He then finishes the stage without any further procedurals or issues. After ULASC, I asked the MD and stage designer who was on the squad if the stage description required that the targets be engaged from within the shooting area (I did not know at that point as I had not read the stage description, although I had asked someone to look at what the start position/condition was before I started the shooter). He informed me that the stage required that all shots be taken within the shooting area. I informed the shooter and clipboard RO that there should be 10 procedurals. The shooter protested my call, clipboard RO advised him to take it up with the MD since he was 20 feet away. MD backed up the call. Shooter spent quite awhile debating the call with the MD and other shooters on the squad. He eventually left the match even though he wasn't done shooting. The shooter (who by the way is not a brand new shooter) seemed to feel that he had asked me if it was ok to shoot. He clearly did not ask me if it was ok to shoot from there, just was informing me that he was going to step back. Obviously this whole thing had a less than stellar turnout. So should I as the RO have done something differently? If so what? I agree with posted replies that the stage must be read verbatim and the situation you’ve described is exactly the reason. It interested me because I see there a few reasons for brainstorming. Not all the information is clear from your description. So, I’ll speculate on some. The shooter asked you to step out of the shooting area? Why? Were there any obstacles? Did he have to run around something? A table, for example? Assuming there were none, then the shooter asked a permission to step back to do what? To shoot, of course! If the stage is set in a way that by stepping back the shooter would see more, if not all, the targets, then this is cheating and 10.6.1 is due especially considering the fact that the shooter is not stepping back by accident. He is doing it to gain an advantage and doing it in predetermined manner. Personally I would rather advice the shooter not to do that especially if he asked the question before COF, that is before command make ready which signifies the beginning of COF. You are not obligated to tell the shooter anything AFTER command make ready hence it would be considered as coaching. If the shooter stepped back and breaks a few shots by accident without gaining an advantage, it would by one procedural penalty; if he steps back and gains an advantage by having more targets available to shoot at – it would be penalties per shot fired; if he steps back to specifically gain an advantage then it would be a Match DQ per 10.6.1. …failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official… The question still is which reasonable directions can be construed as more important than the other: stage description or RO permission to step back. (I think I dug myself to deep by now). Well, DQ would be overruled in Arbitration due to …exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the match disqualification… (11.1.2) hence permission from RO to step back. Therefore the only option left is procedurals per shot fired. One procedural only cannot satisfy the call because an advantage was gained by the shooter. That’s it. I am retiring for happy dreams in a hope to see the perfect world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 You did nothing wrong in this case but there is a lesson to be learned from this situation. In the future make sure that the stage description is read verbatim before the five minute walk through. If, after the reading, there are any questions that cannot be answered from the written stage description call over the MD. After that it is up to the shooter to know and remember the stage rules before he comes up to shoot. If part of his arguement was the fact that you did not correct him when he stated that he was going to step back there is no requirement that you do so. If you had done so you could have been assesed with a procedural for coaching and he might have been nailed with one also. CYa, Pat Coaching doesn't come in to play until the COF has begun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I think the only thing you did wrong was only give him 10 procedurals.. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevepitt Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Just to clarify a few points for the discussion, since I was at the match and on the squad/shooter/RO in question. There was a walk through before the match where the stage description was read verbatum. There was a 5 minute walkthrough for the squad we're talking about where the stage description was read verbatum. In fact, the shooter that we're talking about is actually the person that read the stage description for the squad out loud. He knew the course description. He also asked to be the first shooter, so apparently he felt he was ready. To my knowledge he was the only person to interpret the stage description to allow shooting outside of the shooting area. In my opinion, the RO and MD made the correct call. Steve Pitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franklin D Wolverton Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I agree with the call. It isn't the RO's job to tell the shooter he can't do something (unless it is unsafe). The stage description was read. It was the shooters choice to step outside of the shooting area and engage targets. The shooter said "I am going to step back (and shoot)". That is a statement, not a question. My answer would have been the same as this RO's. Now... if he had said "CAN I step back and shoot" I would have again read verbatim the portion of the stage brief that dealt with the shooting area. I will not give him a yes or no, as this would (to me) not fair to the other shooters, and to me, would be changing the WSB without the RM's permission (per 2.3.1). Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 ....if he steps back to specifically gain an advantage then it would be a Match DQ per 10.6.1. …failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official… That sounds pretty extreme. If the shooter was doing something they knew was questionable and attempting to conceal it, I'd agree there might be a case for Unsportsmanlike Conduct. But doing it in front of the entire squad and the RO and the MD isn't cheating. It's just dumb. 10 procedurals will leave enough of an impression without adding a DQ to the mix. Thanks Bonnie, for clearing up the construction details (I strongly suspected you folks would make sure there was a rear fault line). Come down and see us sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 JT, I stand corrected. CYa, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted November 10, 2008 Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 To clarify there was a rear fault line made of wood. There were no other obstacles other than the forward fault line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I agree with ima45dv8, no cause for a DQ. The 10 procedurals are what I would have called. No coaching after the MR command. If/when the shooter disagrees with the call, it should bump up to the CRO and then the Range Master..not Match Director (though they may be one in the same for a local match...always a good idea to spell that out before the match, btw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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