Big Match prizes

[steel1212]

No one is saying that they "deserve" anything, what we are saying is that IF you are going to do it, reward excellence and BE FAIR! above all Be FAIR!! Just like the hot dogs, no-one put 3 dogs on the T.O. table since it was the "biggest class" and then only put a packet of relish on the T.I. table because it was a smaller class!! KurtM

I know what your saying.....but that made me laugh

[Jack T]

Draw and Duck,

Off the thread for a second.

Man, I'm reading your signature; It's NOT that I can't shoot, I'm just a dumb ASS!! (Personal Quote- 2007 Gator Classic Stage 5)

I can't remember if it was the 2007 Gator or Area 4 at the Shootout Range, I was trying to open the door on one of the stages and it wouldn't open and I'm yelling at the RO, what's wrong with this f@#king door!! and he said it opens the other way. Man talk about having a case of the dumb ass.

That's what happens when you don't do a walk thru on an easy stage.

But, yeah 1st - 3rd get the top prizes in all three divisions. Even TI/Open division, maybe this will make more people want to shoot TI if they have a better chance of winning nice stuff. Nothing wrong with incentive. There is great talent in all three divisions, there is no reason not to reward the shooters evenly accross the board.

Jack

[badchad]

For the record, I counted up all the preferences (at least the unambiguous ones) on this thread and 28 were in favor of distributing the prize table according to match performance, rewarding excellence, hard work, etc.

StealthyBlagga

kurtm

jdtravers

Lawman

bigbrowndog

badchad

dogdoc

Chris

kellyn

BerKim

TMC

AFH

steel1212

TRUBL

benelli2

uscbigdawg

45shooter

Cactustactical

P.E. Kelley

benny hill

AikiDale

JoshF

latewatch

buzzworm

scottmilk9

mike.45

Brian Payne

DIRTY CHAMBER

Only four were in favor of distributing prizes randomly, at lease some of the time, rewarding luck, presence, or probability according to the raffle tickets one bought.

Bill Sahlberg

JKSNIPER

Charles Bond

gose

So regardless of philosophical argument it seems pretty clear that most competitors (87.5%) want to win their prizes the old fashioned way, by shooting well. It’s a big enough discrepancy that match directors should take notice IMO.

[Chris]

No one is saying that they "deserve" anything, what we are saying is that IF you are going to do it, reward excellence and BE FAIR! above all Be FAIR!! Just like the hot dogs, no-one put 3 dogs on the T.O. table since it was the "biggest class" and then only put a packet of relish on the T.I. table because it was a smaller class!! KurtM

I like hot dogs! Better shoot good or else you won't eat!

[Jack T]

No one is saying that they "deserve" anything, what we are saying is that IF you are going to do it, reward excellence and BE FAIR! above all Be FAIR!! Just like the hot dogs, no-one put 3 dogs on the T.O. table since it was the "biggest class" and then only put a packet of relish on the T.I. table because it was a smaller class!! KurtM

I like hot dogs! Better shoot good or else you won't eat!

That's a fact. Also, you can't eat no trophy. I like cash payback!!

[Benelli Chick]

I think everybody would like cash payback. As a match director, I'd love to be able to give BIG cash prizes.

But, I don't know if you know this...matches aren't money making opportunities. My budget is very tight, and I don't have cash to give out. Sponsors are very generous, but cash is a tough thing for sponsors. Their products are what they want to give, and what makes good business sense.

Same problem with wanting equal prizes for the top people on each table. Sometimes, you don't have equal rifles or whatever for every table. You have to work with what you're given. Great stuff, but maybe not equal for all tables.

If anybody knows how those Bass fishing competitions get all that cash to give away, let me know!!! I'm up for it!

Denise

[USMCRET]

For the record, I counted up all the preferences (at least the unambiguous ones) on this thread and 28 were in favor of distributing the prize table according to match performance, rewarding excellence, hard work, etc.

StealthyBlagga

kurtm

jdtravers

Lawman

bigbrowndog

badchad

dogdoc

Chris

kellyn

BerKim

TMC

AFH

steel1212

TRUBL

benelli2

uscbigdawg

45shooter

Cactustactical

P.E. Kelley

benny hill

AikiDale

JoshF

latewatch

buzzworm

scottmilk9

mike.45

Brian Payne

DIRTY CHAMBER

Only four were in favor of distributing prizes randomly, at lease some of the time, rewarding luck, presence, or probability according to the raffle tickets one bought.

Bill Sahlberg

JKSNIPER

Charles Bond

gose

So regardless of philosophical argument it seems pretty clear that most competitors (87.5%) want to win their prizes the old fashioned way, by shooting well. It’s a big enough discrepancy that match directors should take notice IMO.

I also have to put my name on the list that is in favor of distributing the prize table according to match performance. I have only been shooting 3Gun for a year and I have moved up with each match which means I have to spend money on equipment and practice to get there. It's good to know if I put this into it I will do better and get a better reward for it.

Just my two cents

M

[tgibson]

I think everybody would like cash payback. As a match director, I'd love to be able to give BIG cash prizes.

But, I don't know if you know this...matches aren't money making opportunities. My budget is very tight, and I don't have cash to give out. Sponsors are very generous, but cash is a tough thing for sponsors. Their products are what they want to give, and what makes good business sense.

Same problem with wanting equal prizes for the top people on each table. Sometimes, you don't have equal rifles or whatever for every table. You have to work with what you're given. Great stuff, but maybe not equal for all tables.

If anybody knows how those Bass fishing competitions get all that cash to give away, let me know!!! I'm up for it!

Denise

I have an idea....Budwiser, Yamaha, Bass Pro Shop, Berkley, etc. etc.....oh yea... National TV coverage!!!

Adios,

TG

[Jack T]

Travis,

That could be an interesting concept to help promote the sport. Start a tour, with the top six (6) matches in the country. Do it like they do with Pro Bass Tournaments and Pro Archery Tournaments (ASA). I shoot 3D Archery and the paybacks are pretty good off the gates, same way with Motocross Racing. Make the circuit and accumulate match points for each stop on the tour and announce the winners at the end of the season, promotional banquet, etc.

Just a thought.

Jack

[Charles Bond]

For the record, I counted up all the preferences (at least the unambiguous ones) on this thread and 28 were in favor of distributing the prize table according to match performance, rewarding excellence, hard work, etc.

StealthyBlagga

kurtm

jdtravers

Lawman

bigbrowndog

badchad

dogdoc

Chris

kellyn

BerKim

TMC

AFH

steel1212

TRUBL

benelli2

uscbigdawg

45shooter

Cactustactical

P.E. Kelley

benny hill

AikiDale

JoshF

latewatch

buzzworm

scottmilk9

mike.45

Brian Payne

DIRTY CHAMBER

Only four were in favor of distributing prizes randomly, at lease some of the time, rewarding luck, presence, or probability according to the raffle tickets one bought.

Bill Sahlberg

JKSNIPER

Charles Bond

gose

So regardless of philosophical argument it seems pretty clear that most competitors (87.5%) want to win their prizes the old fashioned way, by shooting well. It’s a big enough discrepancy that match directors should take notice IMO.

The real problem with your post is two fold.

First of all you are putting words in the mouths of others to further your agenda. I have yet to see a single post that said luck, presence or probability should be rewarded.

Secondly, your conclusion that in excess of 80% of competitiors want it your way lacks methodology when the fact is that 80% of the shooters do not even read this forum and the majority of those who do do not post. This forum is a good vehicle for the exchange of ideas. It does not however represent a good cross section of those who participate in our sport.

[Stefan]

Thats why the big matches should go to a 5 day format. Allows more shooters and more money. The way matches are run now, there's only a limited amount of shooters and money because of the time constrant. Take away that constrant and you could do away with capping the amount of shooters. Could you imagine a big match running 300-400 shooters in less than a week?

[Jack T]

For the record, I counted up all the preferences (at least the unambiguous ones) on this thread and 28 were in favor of distributing the prize table according to match performance, rewarding excellence, hard work, etc.

StealthyBlagga

kurtm

jdtravers

Lawman

bigbrowndog

badchad

dogdoc

Chris

kellyn

BerKim

TMC

AFH

steel1212

TRUBL

benelli2

uscbigdawg

45shooter

Cactustactical

P.E. Kelley

benny hill

AikiDale

JoshF

latewatch

buzzworm

scottmilk9

mike.45

Brian Payne

DIRTY CHAMBER

Only four were in favor of distributing prizes randomly, at lease some of the time, rewarding luck, presence, or probability according to the raffle tickets one bought.

Bill Sahlberg

JKSNIPER

Charles Bond

gose

So regardless of philosophical argument it seems pretty clear that most competitors (87.5%) want to win their prizes the old fashioned way, by shooting well. It’s a big enough discrepancy that match directors should take notice IMO.

The real problem with your post is two fold.

First of all you are putting words in the mouths of others to further your agenda. I have yet to see a single post that said luck, presence or probability should be rewarded.

Secondly, your conclusion that in excess of 80% of competitiors want it your way lacks methodology when the fact is that 80% of the shooters do not even read this forum and the majority of those who do do not post. This forum is a good vehicle for the exchange of ideas. It does not however represent a good cross section of those who participate in our sport.

I'll play nice so I dont shut down the thread again. With regards to Big Match Prize Distrubution, this forum appears to have a pretty damn good representation of shooters. I see National Champions thru first time shooters and everyone in between. The demographics seem to be fairly well covered. It would appear to be an excellent cross section of those who participate in our sport.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Jack T

[badchad]

The real problem with your post is two fold.

First of all you are putting words in the mouths of others to further your agenda. I have yet to see a single post that said luck, presence or probability should be rewarded.

If not luck, presence, or probability, what do you think a raffle rewards?

Secondly, your conclusion that in excess of 80% of competitiors want it your way lacks methodology when the fact is that 80% of the shooters do not even read this forum and the majority of those who do do not post. This forum is a good vehicle for the exchange of ideas. It does not however represent a good cross section of those who participate in our sport.

Its a sampling. It may not be random, but as Jack T said it seems fairly representative. And the counts now 29 in favor 4 against making the percentage 87.9.

[smokshwn]

I think everybody would like cash payback. As a match director, I'd love to be able to give BIG cash prizes.

But, I don't know if you know this...matches aren't money making opportunities. My budget is very tight, and I don't have cash to give out. Sponsors are very generous, but cash is a tough thing for sponsors. Their products are what they want to give, and what makes good business sense.

Same problem with wanting equal prizes for the top people on each table. Sometimes, you don't have equal rifles or whatever for every table. You have to work with what you're given. Great stuff, but maybe not equal for all tables.

If anybody knows how those Bass fishing competitions get all that cash to give away, let me know!!! I'm up for it!

Denise

I actually think the opportunity for cash payback would be the single biggest thing that major matches could promote that would cause a significant boom in the sport.

Model the money side of things after Trapshooting and you have a system that allows those that want to shoot for Trophies/Awards/Prizes transparently alongside those who want to gamble on themselves in purses, options, or calcuttas.

It would not effect the match operation one bit other than a few more checkboxes on the application and checks being given out to the winners.

BTW if we are polling I am firmly on the side of awarding prizes by order of finish.

[Chills1994]

(delurking / decloaking for a minute)

DISCLAIMER: I'm pretty much a newbie to 3 gun. Nope, I have never even shot a major match. And, yeah, for what it's worth, I got into "action pistol" or "combat pistol" events through IDPA initially.

Yeah, yeah, I see you.... rolling your eyes.... yeah, I did just say "Eye Dee Pee Aaay".

IDPA by it's own rules only gives out "prizes" by random. I don't see a shortage of people signing up for major IDPA matches because they feel they WONT be rewarded for all their hard work and perserverance (sp?).

If I was a MD, first off, I'd get rid of classes entirely. No GM, M, A, B, C, D or M, EX, SS, or MM after your name. The whole sandbagging (err... handicapping?) thing ticks me off. It's strictly head's up within divisions.

Yeah, I would reward your performance at a major 3 gun match. If you placed first in your division and the sponsorship was there, I think you deserve a gun.

If there are enough people in each division, then only the top 3 competitors in each division get a trip to the prize table.

Whatever is left on the prize table, gets raffled off. That's right, at random.

(ah heck... if I was an MD, I might even give out the "Tail End Charlie" prize for the guy/gal who placed D.F.L. overall. But keep it a secret until the match was over.)

As far as badchad keeping a tally of who is most vocal about their opinions of how they think prizes should be distributed, you're gonna get skewed results if you're just going by people who post. Those top shooters who have the most to lose, theoretically speaking, by going to a random draw only are of course going to be the most vocal about it. And it just so happens that they're the veterans of the 3 gun sub forum here on BE.

How many pistol and 3 gun newbies even know that the Brian Enos forum exists?

Besides, I'm sure there are plenty more rank and file members (newbies) who are afraid to ruffle the Big Wigs' feathers by posting their opinions here.

PS: Up close, nothing is faster than irons!

Back to lurking. Cloaking mode back on:

[ShooterSteve]

You can stick my name under the "earn your prize" list. I'm just a stinking B shooter, but if I get beat by other shooters, regardless of classification, they have earned the right to walk the prize table in front of me. Way back at the begining, I posted that we do this for fun, and I will stand by that, but I certainly won't turn down my trip to the table either.

[badchad]

If there are enough people in each division, then only the top 3 competitors in each division get a trip to the prize table.

Whatever is left on the prize table, gets raffled off. That's right, at random.

While I applaud your wanting to give the top 3 prizes, I fundamentally disagree with what you do with the rest of the stuff. At a big match getting a 4th place finish is pretty darn good and the guy who achieves it, I think, should have his performance recognized by a walking up fourth to the prize table and same for the guys that follow him. Why would you want to jack him, or whatever high finisher, favor of giving prizes away willy nilly to guys who didn’t work as hard or compete as well. If gambling and drawings are really what someone is interested in there are plenty of other arenas for that So why pollute a sporting event where people are trying hard to win?

(ah heck... if I was an MD, I might even give out the "Tail End Charlie" prize for the guy/gal who placed D.F.L. overall. But keep it a secret until the match was over.)

That would work once, but still rewards the wrong things if you ask me.

As far as badchad keeping a tally of who is most vocal about their opinions of how they think prizes should be distributed, you're gonna get skewed results if you're just going by people who post.

I just placed a poll where people can post there opinions about what they think anonymously.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=71470&hl=

How many pistol and 3 gun newbies even know that the Brian Enos forum exists?

I’m a pistol and 3 gun newbie.

Besides, I'm sure there are plenty more rank and file members (newbies) who are afraid to ruffle the Big Wigs' feathers by posting their opinions here.

I can see that might lead to some bias. If I were a newbie, lazy, or an otherwise poor shooter and I wanted a chance to get an expensive prize ahead of a harder working veteran shooter I might not want to advertise it either. Hopefully my new poll will eliminate that bias.

Still I think there is an element of some people wanting to save some shooters from disappointment and going home empty after a competitive event. However we don’t want to rob the top finishers from what they, and I, feel they have earned. Perhaps a good compromise would be to have a table of teddy bears where disappointed shooters could get a much needed hug.

[TonyH]

As far as badchad keeping a tally of who is most vocal about their opinions of how they think prizes should be distributed, you're gonna get skewed results if you're just going by people who post. Those top shooters who have the most to lose, theoretically speaking, by going to a random draw only are of course going to be the most vocal about it. And it just so happens that they're the veterans of the 3 gun sub forum here on BE.

I don't post much, but I disagree completly with the above statement. It seems to me that our society now days expects something for nothing more everyday. What ever happen to working hard to earn what you get & having a sense of accomplishment in doing so. Instead we have more & more of (well I'm here & I particapated, what do I get & it better be good). Practice & dedication will get anyone better, but you may have to wait your turn to get there.

[Chris]

Lets put this another way...

You complete a big project at work and everybody is happy. You keep thinking to yourself, "I've put in a ton of overtime hours and I should get a nice bonus." Well, for some reason, the boss decides to have a random drawing of 'the' bonus and the secretary who put the binding on your presentation wins!

How would that make you feel?

[kurtm]

Uh...well...If it were my secratary, I guess we would have a great time in Cabo with the bonus and with what is left I would buy more bullets to practice with. She is a hotty! KurtM

[atomicferret]

I created this topic so that I could figure out how I may want to distribute prizes when I get my own match organized. I think I have got some ideas now. thanks.

Travis,

That could be an interesting concept to help promote the sport. Start a tour, with the top six (6) matches in the country. Do it like they do with Pro Bass Tournaments and Pro Archery Tournaments (ASA). I shoot 3D Archery and the paybacks are pretty good off the gates, same way with Motocross Racing. Make the circuit and accumulate match points for each stop on the tour and announce the winners at the end of the season, promotional banquet, etc.

Just a thought.

Jack

This is another idea I was kicking around. I want to create another great match that people look forward to. I want it to be a part of a Triple Crown or a circuit/tour of some kind where, at the end of the year, a (division) champion can be crowned.

Tap into some of that NASCAR level money you know

One can dream....

[davidwiz]

While I respect Bill Sahlberg's opinion and and thank MGM for supporting our sport, I respectfully disagree with the random prize table concept. There are winners and losers in 3-Gun, just like life. I believe that raffling off prizes is an attempt to make everyone feel special. Just because the same names keep appearing at the top of the order sheet does not make it "unfair", it means that these individuals dedicated themselves to winning, through dedication, hard work and practice. Order of finish prize tables reward hard work and dedication. Raffles reward luck (and IMHO mediocrity) - there is no incentive with a raffle to practice and do your best - all you have to do is show up. Life does not work that way.

Whatever side of the raffle/non-raffle prize table fence you sit on, one thing that must be done, is that there must be transparency in how the prize table works - for the sake of not only the competitors, but the sponsors too. Everyone must be told how the prize table is to work before the match. This is true not only for 3-Gun matches, but also for regular pistol matches too.

[Dustin Lohof]

I'm one that is on the forum all the time from the very beginning of the forum. I hardly ever post maybe twice but I couldn't let this go by.

Cost to attend random drawing prize table match for shooter x me.

STI open pistol. $ 2000.00

New top end this year. $ 1500.00

10 mags tuned by Beven. $ 2000.00

Holster and pistol gear. $ 500.00

JP AR-15. $ 2000.00

Meopta Meostar with mount. $ 1000.00

All mags 30, 42, 52, Beta-C. $ 700.00

Bipods. $ 200.00

Miscellaneous rifle gear. $ 300.00

Back-up AR-15 with JP top end. $ 1500.00

Practice 10-22 set up to match AR with Meostar. $ 2000.00

Rem 1100 with Doctor by Beven. $ 2000.00

1 set Swift Loader load tubes. $ 400.00

All other load tubs and 3-Gun Gear stuff. $ 100.00

Back-up 1100 with out doctor. $ 1500.00

Back-up to the back-up 1100. $ 1000.00

All reloading stuff 1050 with bullet feed, 550

tumbler separator and on and on. $ 5000.00

Entry fees average for one match. $ 100.00

Travel / lodging average for one match. $ 300.00

Ammo for average match not Iron Man. $ 100.00

Unimaginable amount of dry fire

and live fire practice only serious shooters can

appreciate. No charge

Grand Total $ 24,000.00

Walk random drawing prize table second to last having used up most of my luck saving my life

and winning a... t-shirt... priceless

Cost for first and only match that shooter Y probably will ever attend.

Old WW2 1911 handed down from Dad. $ 0.00

Mags, Uncle Mike's holster $ 50.00

Used Rem 870. $ 200.00

Borrowed AR-15. $ 0.00

Match ammo for average match not Iron Man $100.00

Entry fee for average match $100.00

Travel / lodging probably a local shooter $20.00

Grand Total $370.00

Walk random prize table having always been lucky at any game of chance

and winning a... decked out DPMS 308 with Leopold scope...priceless

I guess you know how I feel about random versus order of finish.

Dusty

[Dustin Lohof]

I'm one that is on the for

[badchad]

While I respect Bill Sahlberg's opinion and and thank MGM for supporting our sport, I respectfully disagree with the random prize table concept.

I just thought it would be fair to point out the prize table policy of the last MGM Iron Man:

http://www.mgmtargets.com/iron_man/2008/20...dist_letter.pdf

It may not be a perfect distribution but I think it's a good effort and I can support that. Makes me glad I have an MGM swinger in my backyard.