Big Match prizes

[JKSNIPER]

Badchad,

No where do I say that people should be given AWARDS based on a raffle system.

Mike 45 the same.

I do not think giving the rightful AWARD for top performer should be given away in a raffle.

If I did not explain it properly or if I was misunderstood I apologize.

I meant the AWARD should go to the top guy whether its the first place or second place etc trophy.

Prizes can be given out the same way or by raffle.

I have attended matches that only recognized performance and those that recognized performance and then gave out prizes as part of a raffle.

I must say I prefered the latter match.....I had way more fun....and NO I did not walk away with any BIG prizes unless you consider a T-shirt a BIG prize.

Nothing against the former performance reward type of match........just felt it was more fun at the latter.

My posting was meant to point out the obvious problem with going to a USPSA match merely because of whats on the prize table.

IMHO that person is:

1. Wasting their time but hey its THEIR time to waste.

2. Putting a lot of effort out for little return.

3. If the persons sole motivation is to compete at something only to earn either monetary or equipment rewards commensurate with their performance or amount of practice engaged in then there are other sports/pastimes FAR more rewarding than competing in USPSA shooting.

There are very few truly professional shooters out there that have total sponsorships and draw a salary for their shooting skills.

I don't need to ask Michael Phelps his opinion.

I'm sure he was focused on his performance for years of hard training to compete at the Olympic level.

His reward for all his hard training?

To represent his country at the Olympic games.

The gold medal is icing on the cake.

Not sure but I don't think they had a "prize table" at the Olympics....maybe he won a toaster in the raffle.

Herb Brooks said it best "The name on the front of the jersey is a hell of a lot more important than the name on the back!"

JK

[el pres]

The decision regarding prize distribution should be the sole responsibility of the match organizers. The manner chosen should be clearly posted on the match application and then adhered to without any modification.

If the manner of distribution does not suit your idea of what "should be" you can pass on the match.

It's that simple. Quit your bitching and shut up and shoot....or not.

I'm in with this statement, mainly the shut-up and shoot part !!!

Geeze, we have alot to say. Let's get rid of standardized testing because it hurts feeeeelings !! We are

participating in the most un-PC game in the world. Thoughen up a little people !! As with my last post

I want to reward the top shooters even more !! And yes, the matches are selling out in a flash already. There is

one easy/hard way to get a better prize garanteed right now, Practice more !! You yourself are completely

responsible for your place at the table and to me that means something !!!

Lets look at the most opposite place, Hollywood, who gets the $30k complimentary basket at the Oscars, the guy that

needs it, no! It's the guy that has millions and two of everything in there. Weather they sell it or use it, it becomes a

special must have item because it takes something special to get it, it now has "value" !!

It's like wellfare, when you start giving away money, it looses it's value !!

Edited September 20, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[Merlin Orr]

Not sure but I don't think they had a "prize table" at the Olympics....maybe he won a toaster in the raffle.

JK

Sweet Baby Jesus.... You have to know better than to think that winning the Golds have not made MP a Multi Multi Millionaire.....

Find another analogy.....

[bigbrowndog]

Anything you do is worth doing right, If you are going to have a prize table, then it should be handled properly.

As far as rewarding mediocrity, I think this country has done that for far too long. Excellence is rewarded, persistence is encouraged, and poor sportsmanship is denounced.

Trapr

edited because after I read it, it came across as being arrogant

Edited September 20, 2008 by bigbrowndog

[badchad]

Badchad,

No where do I say that people should be given AWARDS based on a raffle system.

Mike 45 the same.

I do not think giving the rightful AWARD for top performer should be given away in a raffle.

If I did not explain it properly or if I was misunderstood I apologize.

I meant the AWARD should go to the top guy whether its the first place or second place etc trophy.

Prizes can be given out the same way or by raffle.

I understand you perfectly and I think everyone else does too. Prizes and awards are synonyms however. Check it out: http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/prize

I think what you are trying to say it that winners should be happy with a $25 trophy while a random ticket holder should walk away with a $2500 CTR. I just don’t agree, and I don’t think others on my side of the debate fooled by the semantical distinction either.

I have attended matches that only recognized performance and those that recognized performance and then gave out prizes as part of a raffle.

I must say I prefered the latter match.....I had way more fun....

Why? Why should it be way more fun? If shooting and showing your skills with your friends is truly all that matters to you then either match style should be equally fun. Off hand he only reason I can think of why a person would have more fun with random prizes, is if they think they aren’t going to win something of value any other way? If that’s the case then they are every bit as greedy and materialistic as you claim the rest of us are. Please explain it to me.

My posting was meant to point out the obvious problem with going to a USPSA match merely because of whats on the prize table.

IMHO that person is:

1. Wasting their time but hey its THEIR time to waste.

2. Putting a lot of effort out for little return.

3. If the persons sole motivation is to compete at something only to earn either monetary or equipment rewards commensurate with their performance or amount of practice engaged in then there are other sports/pastimes FAR more rewarding than competing in USPSA shooting.

But this is a straw man argument. Nobody has said they go to a match of any kind solely for the awards/prizes. Were just saying if there are going to be awards/prizes the best stuff should go to the winners. Just like in EVERY OTHER SPORT.

I don't need to ask Michael Phelps his opinion.

I'm sure he was focused on his performance for years of hard training to compete at the Olympic level.

His reward for all his hard training?

To represent his country at the Olympic games.

The gold medal is icing on the cake.

That sounds like something his PR adviser might have him tell the kids. I think it far more likely that if he failed to take gold (probably any of them) he would have left the Olympics pretty disappointed. He wanted Spits’ record, making history, etc, and bet he likes riches too.

[steel1212]

It is a little disappointing to work every week at shooting hard for 15 yrs & a guy who shoots only now & then that is beat by you get the lion's share of the prize table. By order of finish you are rewarding those who work harder. I would shoot w/o a prize table as I love this game. Just my 2 cents worth.

I'm with Benny !

I'm with Dale that is with Benny! I just don't understand people saying "I know I'm not going to win" "Oh that guy is going to be there he is going to kick our arse", Etc, etc.....can I get you a tissue? Does Ernie Els not show up to the master because Tiger is going to be there? Did Larry Bird not want to play because Magic was? If your shooting for a prize on the table then earn the damn prize. Don't show up to a match looking for a hand out. If you didn't win anything this year, that is no big deal, practice and come back next year! Hell I got my butt kicked at Ky State 3 gun, only major 3 gun match I've been to. I got my butt kicked because of the shotgun of all things. You know what I did, I practiced with the shotgun. I'm still not great but I'm working on it.

I don't shoot for the prize table the prize table is a bonus. I shoot for that little piece of wood, that some people seem to throw away in hotels after the match. I don't have a lot of them but what I have I'm proud of. I know I didn't sandbag to get them, I earned them.

[Flexmoney]

Ahh...the good old prize table thread. We have them every so often, not quite as regular as we used to though.

It's a good reminder that just because we are shooters and have so much in common...we don't all think alike all the time. Heck, you find out that your buddy/hero can be as hard-headed as your "significant other" says you are.

Folks, Merlin called it. It's going to be how it's always been. The match organizers are going to run it as they see fit. And, if there are 200 competitors...there will be 200 different opinions on how they should have done it different...well, minus a handful...

I'd suggest a group hug, but I know ya don't want to hug the guy that won that prize that you had your eye on (not me...I got nothing ...and had to like it). Instead I'll leave you with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JfMCBh1sJQ Think of me when you get to the 2:15 mark...since I can't play 3-gun all over. (I didn't get none.)

[steel1212]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JfMCBh1sJQ Think of me when you get to the 2:15 mark...since I can't play 3-gun all over.

[kellyn]

JK, I have to say I completely disagree with your post.

This is not about a fixation with prizes. Kurt, Trapr and myself have gone all the way to Europe several times to compete, not because they have some fantastic prize tables over there - and talk about match expenses! Kurt has flown to Denmark, Greece and England to win a cup or ribbon. I flew to Denmark and England to win nothing. Were we pissed about it? Absolutely not, we went to shoot and had a great time! This thread is about the best means to fairly distribute prizes. If we are going to have prizes then we should hash out the best system for distribution. You are certainly entitled to the opinion that a random draw is the best method but the facts and suppositions that you use to back up that claim don't reflect my experience.

I get the idea from your post that you think the top shooters are fairly mercenary, only looking out for number one and unwilling to help anyone else. While there are some individuals like that, they are quite rare. I have found the vast majority of shooters of all stripes willing to help out their competitors, even in the heat of battle. This is true even at the top level. There is no pervasive "screw everyone else" attitude. A great example is last year's Multigun Nationals. Limited was a hotly contested title yet everyone in the supersquad was helping everybody else out with advice, equipment, drinks etc etc. At the Blue Ridge Mountain Mountain 3 gun, the AMU helped me out with some ammo even though I was in direct competition with Daniel. Hardly mercenary! It was sportsmanship. I could go on endlessly with examples.

I love shooting but I know for a fact it does take a great deal of "work" to get to the top. Ask TGO who loves shooting more than just about anyone. It's taken him a HUGE amount of WORK to get where he is. It's the same with any winner. Ask Ted Puente how much he's had to WORK to win his 2 National titles. That does not mean they or I don't love shooting.

No one is "entitled" to anything. My point is that prize systems should award on the basis of performance not just being present.

And yes Flex, we have to have the prize table thread now and again!

[Flexmoney]

And yes Flex, we have to have the prize table thread now and again!

Yeah...gotta let it all out. Just like when you were in High School and you dropped your date off at home. After walking her to the door, ya head back to the car...farting the whole way.

[bpowe]

I remember the mercenary top shooters at the Superstition Mountain 3-gun match 2? years ago. Three of them donated their prizes, a rifle pistol and shotgun to a junior shooter who had borrowed enough gear to shoot the match. If I ever get to be a top shooter, I hope I can be as mercenary.

Bill

[scottmilk9]

I don't remember it at Mystery mountain, but i do remember it at rocky mountain where good ol Mr. Miller gave away a rifle he won, someone else a pistol and Benny a shotgun. I thought that was the coolest thing i've seen at a match.

[TRUBL]

ok, so it's early.....can I post this here?

I do have to say though, it seems to me that MOST major matches I've been to, do reward excellence (atleast the top 1, 2 or 3 people). And that atleast should continue. It's always good to see these guys get the respect they deserve. But, also keep in mind.....it's more than just the top 3, I still think that it's the top 25%......and you all know who you are. You actually work at this game, maybe even practice some. I used to be one of those guys, now I just shoot matches, so maybe my judgement is clouded some. I did, however, get that winning ticket once....couldn't use the prize .

I know it can be a pain for the MD's, but maybe it's just a simple matter of not having hidden grab bags.....but darn it, the top shooter should have a choice to get the top prize. hell, he may pass it up, or give it away (a real stand up guy) or sell it, or whatever.

One aspect that no one has brought up.....human nature is that we want it now and we want it quick, take what we can and bitch about it later. Food for thought, and this is on ALL the MD's minds. Time, you go away from raffles and grab bags and the whole prize table process will slow way down. So if we go this way at a match......no complaining about how long the awards ceremony was. Now, before anyone flames me....I am NOT an advocate for grab bags or raffles, infact, I'm pretty much happy anyway it goes, probably because I'm getting old and don't care?? I do have my opinions....and I do sway towards a top down table and if came to vote, thats the way I would vote. I am merely throwing out things to think about....ya know, the old "carefull what you wish for thing", or "I have seen the enemy, and it is us".

Darn!!!....I feel pretty tall on the soap box

And Kurt gave that rifle away, becasue he thought it was an airsoft rifle and that he had gotten duped at the prize table....see, his eye sight is really bad!!! (Just Kidding)

Tim

Kelly...don't you dare remove that picture!!! I said all this crap just to feel justified in posting it!!!

Edited September 20, 2008 by TRUBL

[bigbrowndog]

That pic pretty much sums up why I go to matches, you get to have all kinds of fun.

BTW, that was from the ECS, in Greece. You can just make out an American shooter on the left border, I can't ID them though. There were four of us there.

Trapr

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm never sure whether to laugh or cry every time I hear a line about the top shooter already having everything they need or not need another widget off the prize table. It's insanely expensive to get to the top of the game. I won't even post the amount of money I've spent to get to where I am because of fear that the wife might see it. There is no one in the US that supports themself completely by sponsorship...no one. Everyone of the top shooters that supposedly have full rides make most of their money training, not from their sponsorships. The days of the shooter getting an actual salary for shooting are over. The folks who are actually employed by the gun companies, like Dave and Julie have many other duties other than just shooting. If a top shooter wins something that they can't use it will probably be sold to try and re coup some of that investment. It does sometimes still get used though. Like the Larue Tactical upper that I won at the Pro-Am this year. It's sitting in the trunk of my work car with the SureFire suppressor, Aimpoint M4 and Noveske Lower (that I actually had to buy myself rather than have it given to me by my hoards of admiring sponsors).

And JK, the crack about practicing not being work really shows a lack of knowledge as to what efforts are needed to be competetive at the top levels. It is not fun to be on the practice range shooting in the pouring rain and snow and wind. Or to have the discipline to keep practicing when it is 100 degrees out. The same discipline to spend hours dryfiring and working on your equipment. None of that is particularly fun, at least not for me. However the payoff comes when I go to matches, big or small and do well. And it is a slap in the face to put in that much time to find it be worth a $10.00 piece of wood.

[kurtm]

Trapr, the U.S. shooter in the picture is Daniel Ernest of San Antonio texas. You, I and Cramblit don't wear t-shirts under our team shirts...so it is Dan Ernest. As for Mercenary....Dan, Trapr, Jeff and I went to the Euro Shotgun Championships as the U.S. team. We got ABSOLUTELY NO HELP FROM ANY U.S. ENTITY. Heck USPSA wouldn't even help with the shirts. We all felt it was important to have the U.S. represented in Greece, but our country didn't even know we were there, nor was there a prize table of any kind. So lets recap. Spent our own money to get there. Spent our own money to stay there, spent our own money to shoot there, without any help from any U.S. shooting based group such as USPSA, NRA...How mercenary of us! The icing on our cake was being able to hang out, and hang-over with some of the best folks in the world, not the medals we won!

ScottMilk9....yes it is now your turn....you knew I would get around to you!

I agree that if Iron is only 10% of the field it should only get 10% of the guns/good stuff. The part I don't agree with is that it seems to get the LAST 10% of the good stuff. At SMM3G I won T.I. and was second over all in "tactical". T.O. winner got a $2300.00 plus rifle, Open got a $2500.00 rifle, H.M. got a $2000.00 rifle, and T.I. had a rifle that full MSRP on was $775.00 (I know because I got it.) I don't dispute the percentage thing at all, I am just tired of the lesser filled classes like H.M., Open, sometimes, and T.I. getting the LOWEST 10%. "What do I do with this Raven .25 Mr. Match director...um.. put it on the H.M. table for first place, there are only 10 shooters in that class. Put the Two Saber rifles on the table for 12th and 13th because there were 100 shooters in T.O.".....HMMM! Oh well I guess that is the Mecenary in Me! KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

lawman has made some good points about "practice", there are plenty of times that being in A/C would be much nicer than 90% humidity, and 100degrees. but in order to know what your equipment is going to do, or how you will perform under nonperfect conditions. you haul your a$$ and equipment to the range and spend 2-6 hours there working on drills or making your zero second nature, or verifying that your ammo makes PF, or whatever.

Even then you still need to go home and reload more ammo, dryfire, clean guns, etc.

All because we're "prize mercenaries" ......................it has nothing to do with wanting to better our last performance or find out why we could or could not do certain things at the last match.

Desire to excel has nothing to do with it, its all about the prizes, prizes, and more prizes, gimme gimme gimme. I could buy more stuff than I've won, if i could just quit trying.

trapr

[Merlin Orr]

Each of us have a different motivation to do what we do..... Why do we worry about what motivates others?

I know there are shooters who go to matches solely for the prize they might win. For the vast majority of us (shooters) it is an internal thing not driven by material objects.

Where's the Love, (of what we do) Baby?

I feel sorry for "them."

[JKSNIPER]

Lawman, Badchad, EVERYONE (it seems),

I guess I'm just horrible in expressing myself.

Saying it in my head and typing it here (not the fastest or best typist) I guess I lose some in the "translation".

I NEVER Said to give away awards that are rightfully the winnings of a top competitor to people that did not win.

If the award for first place wil be a whiz bang rifle then by all means give that whiz bang riifle to the top guy.

If I misused the words "prize" and "award" incorrectly I again apologize.

To my meaning an "Award" is something you earn.

Like when a soldier or Marine is AWARDED the medal of honor.

A "PRIZE" is something you can get just by showing up, buying a raffle ticket, etc....

If my definition is off sorry about dat.

Clarification:

I have been to matches where sponsors have donated "prizes" to the match.

Now the M.D. had a decision to make.

In ADDITION to the advertised prize or award (whatever you want to call it), for winning 1st,2nd,3rd etc...he had all this stuff that was EXTRA stuff. Stuff donated by sponsors to promote their companies. Stuff from Black Hills Ammo,Leupold,Mighty Mens Gear, etc...a few big ticket items but the most were probably valued at $100 or less.

He could have tacked it onto the stuff already designated for the top guy or the top 5 guys .

He did not and elected to hold a raffle for it.

Everyone that had paid their match fee got one raffle ticket.

When your # was called you got whatever he was holding at the time.

For a few "Big Ticket" items he then placed everyones tickets back into the hat and drew to give everyone an equal chance at winning these things that were of greater value and were donated to the match from sponsors.

One year he DID sell the raffle tickets.

They were 5 or 10 dollars each if I recall correctly.

ALL of the proceeds generated from the sale of the raffle tickets went to the American Snipers Org. to support the troops assigned as snipers/designated marksmen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Troops won....guys won stuff in the raffle...winners took home their awards/prizes whatever you want to call them...everyone went home with SOMETHING and everyone was happy.

You can judge how happy these men are because a very large percentage show up every year to try and win the match and take home a trophy that , money wise at least, is not worth all that much.

I am not a socialist or communist and I'm not advocating the throwing out of standards and giving stuff away to people who did not win it by taking it from those that did.

Again if my communication skills here are less than optimal and I fudged up my post I apologize.

Thank God I don't make my living as a writer or I'd be starving now...although I COULD stand to lose the extra weight...hmmm.

I DO however feel that a fixation on the prize table only as a reason to compete in our sport is counterproductive to being a good competitor, good sport, and all around good person to be around at the match.

Heck I try to win.

I do really try.

When I shoot ..my game face goes on and I shoot the best I can and I try my dammdest to win. Once the timer beeps game is on.

When I ULSC its done.

I shot my best and I'll either win/lose/ whatever based on my performance.

I've won my share of $10 pieces of wood along with a gold silver and bronze medal from the NY State police olympics so I think I know what it takes to dry fire and practice to win.

At the Police Olympics it came down to examining the last years worth of shooting data at a critical moment (standing behind the rifle on the firing line) to make a dope change and win.

I examined my data...others did not or made an incorrect change.

I had a lot of fun winning those medals.

That match had NO prize table.

I won top shooter and thats what I won...top shooter.

No checks, no donated prizes from sponsors, and I had a ball there with my friends and fellow competitors.

However I WOULD have had just as much fun had there been a $10,000 check at the end.

I KNOW I would have had MORE fun afterward with the 10 grand check since it would have been easier to pay for the bar/restaurant tab.

Sorry if that line about top shooter having all they need got to someone....but looked at objectively they probably DO have all they need to win because they just won.

However I am NOT saying that because they are the top guys they then should not win whatever was designated for the top guys.

Award them their award for their performance.

They deserve it.

I'm:

Not saying ALL matches should be run as just funzies.

Not saying the guy that tries to win is bad.

Not saying my way is the only way.

Just saying that if the guy trying to win is ONLY there because of whats on the prize table then his focus is blurry.

Adjust that ocular lens.

Thats all bro.

We can agree to disagree if necessary.

Peace out cub scout.

JK

[JKSNIPER]

Its beautiful Saturday here and my son has a match coming up ( I can't shoot in the match...bad back) and we're going to go prepare.

And NOW I'm going to follow Merlins advice and shut up and shoot!

Thanks Merlin for refocusing MY ocular lens!

JK

[JThompson]

I think this thread is a bit definition of "mercenary." Aren't we all a little mercenary for thinking we deserve prizes for whatever reason? Do we need to put an -OF-WA! at the end of USPSA?

QBAS!

JT

Edited September 20, 2008 by JThompson

[fastshooter03]

I don't get to many Big Uspsa Pistol or 3-Gun matches or "Outlaw" 3-gun matches but it seems that 3-gun has much better and greater quantities of prizes donated. I could be wrong. Maybe someone more knowledgable can comment on that. I grabbed the Enindine AR buffers off the Limited and Open prize tables at Handgun Nationals last weekend giving up certificates for Starline or Montana Gold $100 in value at Open. Limited it was the only thing there for 71st.

Some people(maybe only me) have a better chance at finishing high in 3-gun than in other sporting events and the great Sponors have made it almost addictive. I can't wait to sign up for the FN/Cmmg or Dpms Tri-Gun every year. Travel time has a bit to do with it with those matches being so close to WI but the prizes don't hurt. Would I like to go to the 3-gun matches that offer longer range shooting and more ellaborate stage props and design--Hell yeah. Would I care about the prize distribution at those matches--not so much. It would be a test of skills and equipment more than anything.

How many other vacations are there where you can you bring stuff home that is worth way more than the amount you spent or broke even or maybe got a few shock buffs but still sent hundreds of rounds down range with good people watching and laughing at-er-with you?

We can debate prize distribution until we die of old age but we should be just grateful there are matches to be shot and so many prizes to be had. I can find no fault in the way things have been run at the 3-GUN matches I've been to(other than some stage designs ) so I just hope the sponsors' have increasing sales every year so they will continue to support the sport.

Nick

[jbullgpd]

Ahh...the good old prize table thread. We have them every so often, not quite as regular as we used to though.

I'll leave you with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JfMCBh1sJQ Think of me when you get to the 2:15 mark...since I can't play 3-gun all over. (I didn't get none.)

Ah Flex, always able to put a smile on even the most intense topics,

[DrawandDuck]

Shot Moss Branch in Anniston today and wanted to Share THEIR PRIZE TABLE.....NOW this is the kind I LIKE!!!! 1st got 3 hotdog, choice of chips, dessert and drink; 2nd -2 dogs; 3rd -1 dog; and so on until the prize table was EMPTY!!!

PS....After everyone went to the table those capable of consuming MORE prizes got to go back in random order.......I got a rice krispy treat and a pack of nabs!!!!

Edited September 20, 2008 by DrawandDuck

[kurtm]

No one is saying that they "deserve" anything, what we are saying is that IF you are going to do it, reward excellence and BE FAIR! above all Be FAIR!! Just like the hot dogs, no-one put 3 dogs on the T.O. table since it was the "biggest class" and then only put a packet of relish on the T.I. table because it was a smaller class!! KurtM