D.Hayden Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I tried a search in the Glock and USPSA Rules forum.. I dodn't see a discusion on this.. hopefully I didn't miss it.. Someone asked about the legality of changing out Glock connectors (for something like the Ghost Rocket), also about having things like adding set-screws internally to stop overtravel and/or reset stops. The 2008 rules seems to be tighter, and it dosn't seem to fit into the allowed modifications for Production. Has there been any NROI rulings on this, or what's everyones opinion? 2004: US Appendix D9 21.4 - Action work to enhance reliabilty (throating, trigger work) is allowed.. 2008: Appendix D4 Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines) Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods). Thanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I'm guessing that switching to the Ghost Rocket with tab would fall under a connector exchange. My experience with two of them was not favorable; I was getting failure of the trigger to reset after about 1000 rounds..... The longer I play this game, the closer to stock my Glocks become.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 All internal work is groovy in Prod, but once you get outside of the gun it is illegal. This (illegal) includes moving the location of the trigger shoe pin and modifying the internals of the magwell. I'm guessing that switching to the Ghost Rocket with tab would fall under a connector exchange. My experience with two of them was not favorable; I was getting failure of the trigger to reset after about 1000 rounds.....The longer I play this game, the closer to stock my Glocks become.... +1 to what Nik said. The Ghost Rocket gave me random reset failures. The day that I had one at Area 5 was the last day I used that part. Now I use a 3.5# connector from Lone Wolf and have zero issues. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 Aside from you should do it or don't... I'm just asking.. is it legal? What supports the "All internal work is groovy in Prod.." Reading the rules.. I think it's grayer than that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Aside from you should do it or don't...I'm just asking.. is it legal? What supports the "All internal work is groovy in Prod.." Reading the rules.. I think it's grayer than that.. Because I'm not doing it, it's not an issue for me. I'd be inclined to rule that it falls under exchanging minor components. If I needed a ruling though, I'd contact Amidon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 Got this back today.. Maybe the production rules could use some stronger wording... but internal chnages are limited. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DNROI Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 5:26 AM Subject: RE: Production - Internal Modifications These modifications are outside those allowed and would be inappropriate. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Someone asked about the legality of changing out internal parts on a Production gun. for example: After market Glock connectors (for something like the Ghost Rocket) Adding set-screws internally to stop over-travel and/or reset stops. The 2008 rules seems to be tighter, and it doesn't seem to fit into the allowed modifications for Production. 2004: US Appendix D9 21.4 - Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work) is allowed.. 2008: Appendix D4 Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines) Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods). Are the changing of connectors, (in this case one that adds an over-travel stop, not available form factory), or adding a setscrew to reduce reset travel.. OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 These modifications are outside those allowed and would be inappropriate.John Whaaaaaat?!?! Stippling is OK. Replacing the whole upper is OK. Adding a plug is OK. Replacing a guide rod is OK. Changing a connector is "inappropriate"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 I'll be the devil's advocate and say "If it is inside the gun then it must be authorized as a minor component." This part of Item 23 "Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods)" should have included e.g. since there are lots of other minor components. Based on this wording I would not be able to change the ejector because it is not listed as a minor component. Rules should be written to proscribe those things that should not be done not what is authorized. Oh and John didn't say it was illegal just that it was inappropriate, whatever that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 I'll be the devil's advocate and say "If it is inside the gun then it must be authorized as a minor component." Is it also not part of the trigger work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 21, 2008 Author Share Posted September 21, 2008 Oh and John didn't say it was illegal just that it was inappropriate, whatever that means. I asked John to clarify... I guess I should have put it in simpler terms rather than “inappropriate”, no, it is not a legal modification according to the rules You can only throat or polish to approve accuracy, reliability and function. Sorry for the confusion. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VegasOPM Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 I guess that I stick with the most guarded view of the rules. My GLOCK 17's have the connector, slide release and mag release out of a 34 with some mild dremeling to replicate the effect of 20,000 rounds of wear to smooth the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splashdown Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 So, how does one define "improve function?" I think my lighter trigger with overtravel stop functions better (=improved). FWIW, my ghost rocket has never let me down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 (edited) I'm sorry, I just can't wrap my head around the notion that an aftermarket connector is an inappropriate/illegal modification. Likewise that mods to said connector do not fall under the definition of internal work for reliability and functioning. Set screws in the housing - I can handle that being a no-no. But to say that one of the most common parts to switch in a Glock should/must only be factory Glock - and that the only internal mods do not include any work on that connector - well, I feel..I don't know what I feel. Edited September 22, 2008 by vluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 If the rules are going to cover what can or can not be done to the inside of a gun then the Nationals should start a form of Technical Inspection of ALL Production guns to insure they meet the rules. Looking at the list of authorized modifications I don't see anything about triggers but the most popular trigger jobs involve replacing the trigger assembly with either a modfied version or one that closely resembles a factory version. Wait, replacing a factory trigger in a Glock is not part of the authorized modifications. Time for a Board of Directors conference call to determine if the rule needs to be reworded because I changed the extractor on my Glock with a new Loaded Chamber Indicator model than is not listed as an authorized modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I believe the defining point as to what is allowed has been stated but perhaps overlooked... "Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)" •Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function •Sights – trimmed, adjusted, replaced, colored, or fiber-optic. •Slide – refinishing. Milling of slide – only as required to insert sights. •After-market slides and barrels – provided they are the same length, contour, and caliber as original factory standard. •Grips – Internal beveling. Checkering, stippling, and addition of grip tape or grip sleeves. (see Appendix E4) •Exchange of minor components (springs, safeties, slide stops, guide rods). So regarding internal parts, if it's not a spring, safety, slide stop or guide rod, it would seem that swapping out is deemed illegal... What you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 actually..new production rules effective July 1 2009 21.1 Because internal modifications are currently very difficult to enforce, NROI now deems that this clause means “INTERNAL modifications which do NOT conflict with other clauses of this appendix are NOW ALLOWED. Per existing NROI ruling, any “internal” modifications which result in a visible change to the external appearance of the gun when it is in battery REMAIN PROHIBITED unless specifically allowed by the plain language herein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Thanks for pointing that out to me EERW! What an about face that was...I guess makes things easier for the RM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 And also easier for the shooter I might add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamikaze1a Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Easier yes, but it could get expensive with less restrictions. I thought they established Production to offer a class that did not require beau coup bucks to be competetive but I think many shooters wanted to be able to do more upgrades. And the upgrade manufacturers are probably happier too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Easier yes, but it could get expensive with less restrictions. I thought they established Production to offer a class that did not require beau coup bucks to be competetive but I think many shooters wanted to be able to do more upgrades. And the upgrade manufacturers are probably happier too... About the only upgrades required to a gun that runs are better sights, some version of grip enhancement (tru-grip, skateboard tape, pro-grip) and possibly to slap some polish on the firing mechanism contact surfaces...... Everything else isn't necessary, IMHO.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) As Nik says it is a reflection of the free market up to a point. Some things are impossible to police. A rule without an effective enforcement tool is worse than useless. The current rule was shopped around for input from Production Division shooters. With their feedback we crafted about as good a rule as we could have, IMO. Others mileage may vary. Edited July 29, 2009 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 One of the points I've made to my AD with regard to production division was that given USPSA shooter's propensity to want to tinker with their gear to see if a change would improve performance, it was probably unrealistic to expect to be able to introduce a division where such tinkering is in fact prohibited...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 add that the game was invented to push the limits of what can be done, and you naturally get into tinkering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootingirons45 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Tinkerings fine but sooner or later one will come to realize that reliability is more important than any "perceived" advantage you may get from tinkering. In the end, you can't buy skill or a better score. Of course you can improve some things to make your weapon more efficient but, in the end, I'll take 100% reliabilty anyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) And you will probably score better than those who sacrifice reliability. It all works out in the end. Col. Cooper told me once that all you need is a good trigger, a good set of sights (not necessarily adjustable), and a gun that woks reliably. Wise words indeed. Having said that though, I have ignored them on numerous occasions, mostly to my detriment. Edited July 29, 2009 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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