Palm Scoring - Nationals

[pjb45]

How can a time be recorded but no points. I thought the palm data was downloaded? Would that be because the stage was zeroed?

Edited September 15, 2008 by pjb45

[shred]

We had about a five-minute delay on each and every stage due to the the Palm system.

We had two walk-on shooters. One was in the system, but officially in another squad, another barely showed up at all.

Invariably, the RO would tell the shooter "LAMR", then about a minute later the Palm RO would yell out "wait, wait...".. at which point a conference would need to occur where they decided what to do about it. The guy from the other squad was pretty easy to fix, but the last-minute walk-on never came up right. Most of the time, the staff resorted to scoring him on a chunk of cardboard or paper and hand-entering it later. All while he's sitting there waiting to go.

I also don't like the 'receipts' much either. I like to save my scoresheets and if I mess something up or do something really well, write on the scoresheet what happened was right by the target in question so I can go back and practice later. The little green slips were useless for that and a pain to compare 'how did you do on that?' with your squadmates without crowding the scoring RO to peek at the sheet.

I never used the 'quick results' feature (especially as we were the last squad off the range), so the rest of it seemed pretty much extra complexity for little shooter value to me.

[Charles Bond]

It was evident that some stages had staff that adapted to the system well, some good, and some were challenged. By way of example where how some ROs treated NPM. They had to go in the palm last. Some of the staff scored everything else and then walked back to the disappearing targets and scored them. The better ones scored the targets as they came to them and simply made a note as to the hits on these targets and just entered them last.

Was all the effort worth the benefit? I am not really in a position to answer that for anyone other than myself. Rob ran the system and knows better than anyone whether it benefited the match. Based on just my limited observation, it started out slow with some of the staff but everyone who desired to learn it had the hang of it by the end of the first match. The question of "worth it" is not however just limited to the staff. For us to gain a benefit, the shooters have to have faith in the system and see the benefit.

I saw the benefit and I believe most of the staff did as well. I am however just another shooter at the nationals.

[Bruce Bethell]

Yes, there were problems with the Palm scoring system. When they took the cords off telephones, everyone had problems finding a lost handset, but we all adapted. Having my files on those neat floppy disks made it easy to take stuff from one computer to another, until they developed those damned hard drives, be we all adapted. Everyone has pretty well survived the demise of 8 Track tapes and Texaco folding road maps. I've even given up using MsDOS as a primary operating system. I also understand that updates are already available for Windows v. 3.0!

The Palm system has several wrinkles to be ironed out. I dare say that using the system at Nationals was as much a learning experience for the developers of the system as it was for the Staff and shooters. Every suggestion I made to the tech staff about the Palm was taken seriously, and I think improvements will be made as the system is used more at larger matches. Every time we had any problem, the tech staff was there promptly with very patient instruction to those of us who still can't figure out a digital watch.

More staff training would have been helpful. I can personally attest to the fact that the Staff was up to their ass in 'gators with this match, and the schedule simply didn't have those extra hours available. Extensive training would have required yet another day off work for folks who already sacrificed at least six days of the workweek to volunteer. BYT, I can't be very sympathetic to shooters who complaint that they didn't get finished in their allotted one-half day. Most of the staff needed their headlights getting to the range by around 0700, and then getting back to the motel 12 hours later. That was the norm for most days.

Sure, there is high tech stuff out there that would equate scoring matches with Star Wars and beyond. Finding someone who will design software for a very limited application is yet another question, as is the cost of hardware. The developer of this system took an existing PDA device, integrated it with existing scoring software, and in my opinion made some great strides.

Having another warm body on each stage dedicated to entering scores in a Palm while others run shooters is simply not a practical solution. Has anyone making this suggestion ever volunteered to work a National match? I can tell you from experience, the MD and the RM's spend time on the phone calling around the country asking people to work these matches. Staff gets a set maximum travel allowance, that will get you to the match if you live close enough. I got one-half of my motel room paid, and a free burger during my very short lunch break at the range. A small per diem covers my gas to and from the range each day, and maybe a cold beer in the evening.

In spite of the shortcomings, as an RO I personally liked the Palm system. It took a little use to get comfortable, and I am sure the learning curve was different for many RO's. I reviewed Palm entries with every shooter who asked, even after the squad was finished, and there were very few. Like everything else, I am sure both the system and the operators of the system will improve over time.

And then some smart-ass came and stuck an electrical cord on my black Underwood typewriter. (If you understand this, you are showing your age.)

All in all, a great match, at least from this RO's point of view.

Bruce

[Chuck Anderson]

I know everyone is talking about the speed of the palms. I'm still not seeing it. Admittedly it was faster than most National matches, which was good because whoever set the schedule did not do themselves any favors by having the awards ceremony scheduled 1 1/2 hours after the final shot was scheduled. I'm sorry, but a half hour window was not good planning.

As far as the palm scoring adding features, what did it really add. The results I saw seemed like they were only updated once a day. Definitely on the last day of the O/L10 match where there was a 5 hour gap between updates. I've seen matches with a very similar number of people 300-375ish, scored by Bruce Gary (sorry Bruce) and Linda Chico where the finals were posted within minutes (5-10) after the last shot. I just don't see how a Palm can improve upon that speed. The Palm still needed stats runners, they still needed to be uploaded and they still needed to be verified (which I'm guessing took the longest time).

I think the biggest advantage to the Palms was actually a result of the weather, no soggy ruined scoresheets.

Sorry I'm all for innovation and advancements in technology but I really don't see the return on this. Is it a reduction in the cost of scoresheets? Because everything else I'm hearing can be done with the old system just as well. And the match probably would have finished sooner also.

And I guess on the technology front. If you're going to change start times, you need a better way to get ahold of competitors. Only 5 of the 9 shooters on our squad got the message because the rest apparently were tech savvy enough to have a desire/need to check the internet for results every 15 minutes (sadly like me). If we hadn't started without them our squad would have had all six of our Saturday stages to shoot at 1:00 PM.

[Flexmoney]

I also don't like the 'receipts' much either. I like to save my scoresheets and if I mess something up or do something really well, write on the scoresheet what happened was right by the target in question so I can go back and practice later. The little green slips were useless for that and a pain to compare 'how did you do on that?' with your squadmates without crowding the scoring RO to peek at the sheet.

Hmmmmm.

I've never had a whole lot of use for a match booklet, but I assume they gave one out at the nationals? The ones from the past (and the pdf files of the stages this year) even have/had blank spaces that you can write info into.

I always tucked my score sheet in the match book, on the page that had the stage diagram. Any notes can be written in there as easy as anything, right?

[shred]

I also don't like the 'receipts' much either. I like to save my scoresheets and if I mess something up or do something really well, write on the scoresheet what happened was right by the target in question so I can go back and practice later. The little green slips were useless for that and a pain to compare 'how did you do on that?' with your squadmates without crowding the scoring RO to peek at the sheet.

Hmmmmm.

I've never had a whole lot of use for a match booklet, but I assume they gave one out at the nationals? The ones from the past (and the pdf files of the stages this year) even have/had blank spaces that you can write info into.

I always tucked my score sheet in the match book, on the page that had the stage diagram. Any notes can be written in there as easy as anything, right?

Maybe.. I usually keep the match book unmolested so I can look at them later on to get an idea what to expect for future matches. A big 'shot an alpha-mike-no-shoot on this target' scribbled in might not be so good for the old confidence factor... 'sides, half the time I just use the writing-down-the-error as a way to get it out of my head for the next stage and don't actually ever revisit it. I also sometimes like to see the surrounding targets' hits so I can say "I went too fast through this array because all the hits are scattered"..

Probably a good idea to actually note things on the stage designs themselves though (distances, differences, etc). I'll have to think about that.

[Rob Boudrie]

Definitely on the last day of the O/L10 match where there was a 5 hour gap between updates.

The delay between updates on the last day was our fault in the back room, not the delivery of the scores from the ranges. We have identified the process issues which caused this delay so that any future use of the system at such a match will be back on the "hourly update" schedule.

If you want to see ugly, try working a stats room during an extended heavy downpour when waterlogged carbonless scoresheets arrive in matches of hundreds. Carbonless paper seems to have very spongelike qualities, and absorbs water more readily than conventional paper.

[wgnoyes]

... whoever set the schedule did not do themselves any favors by having the awards ceremony scheduled 1 1/2 hours after the final shot was scheduled. I'm sorry, but a half hour window was not good planning.

Hour and a half?! Damn. I hope Joy had access to some sort of program that could dig into the match file to produce a MD's list of who won what, 'cause otherwise you have to print dozens of pages of reports and then collate them together into something the presenter can't screw up during the awards ceremony. Been there, seen that!

... The Palm still needed stats runners, they still needed to be uploaded and they still needed to be verified (which I'm guessing took the longest time).

Uploading the master palms to the EZWS central computer is nothing; that takes about as much time as bringing a wad of scoresheets into stats. But would there still be a verify process in the traditional sense when using palms? By that, I mean you print verify listings and compare them back to the actual scoresheets to ensure the data was entered correctly. Since there are no scoresheets..... ?

[wgnoyes]

I'll post the code for the results station to uspsa.org so anyone who feels comfortable setting up a linux box can create a similar results station for other big matches. I'll wait until USSA sends my server back so I can include the Apache and Bind configuration files as part of the tarball.

I'll definitely be looking forward to that! I think I could probably set up a server like that running on vmware or ms virtual pc on the master ezws computer.

Edited September 15, 2008 by wgnoyes

[Chuck Anderson]

My memory was that the last squad was to start the last stage at 4:45 PM with a 45 minute stage time finishing at 5:30 PM *(this is what was scheduled, obviously not what happened) The awards ceremony was scheduled for 7:00 PM. With a one hour protest period, I think my math was right.

As far as the verification, I believe they were verifying the scores against the hand written receipt the RO's gave out. I was told by one of the USPSA muckety mucks that he was in stats at 6:30 and they had scoresheets out verifying. Not sure what else he would have meant (note that was the LPR match).

[wgnoyes]

Yeah, that schedule is very optimistic.

[Flexmoney]

I also don't like the 'receipts' much either. I like to save my scoresheets and if I mess something up or do something really well, write on the scoresheet what happened was right by the target in question so I can go back and practice later. The little green slips were useless for that and a pain to compare 'how did you do on that?' with your squadmates without crowding the scoring RO to peek at the sheet.

Hmmmmm.

I've never had a whole lot of use for a match booklet, but I assume they gave one out at the nationals? The ones from the past (and the pdf files of the stages this year) even have/had blank spaces that you can write info into.

I always tucked my score sheet in the match book, on the page that had the stage diagram. Any notes can be written in there as easy as anything, right?

Maybe.. I usually keep the match book unmolested so I can look at them later on to get an idea what to expect for future matches. A big 'shot an alpha-mike-no-shoot on this target' scribbled in might not be so good for the old confidence factor... 'sides, half the time I just use the writing-down-the-error as a way to get it out of my head for the next stage and don't actually ever revisit it. I also sometimes like to see the surrounding targets' hits so I can say "I went too fast through this array because all the hits are scattered"..

Probably a good idea to actually note things on the stage designs themselves though (distances, differences, etc). I'll have to think about that.

I'm just not much of a name person. If I don't have the pictures (stage diagrams) to go with...then I'm lost as to what stage it was.

[Lexor40cal]

Palm scoring = Nightmare!!

Also I personally think it was the wrong match to roll it our at, and if it had been tried before the Nationals why did all the problems with it not get ironed out before hand?

Transfering the data from Palm to paper was just so wrong. A little wireless printer would have been the only way to go to print hard copy, and stopping to down load to the stat's collection Palm while shooting a squad was rediculous, why not wait until after a squad had shot.

If there had been two plams per stage and they had been rotated per squad it would have made sense, but v. expensive? (They put two Plalms on stage 11 to try and eleviate the back up there)

Better still have a wirless network at the range so the data is automatically collected and rolled up to a central point.

I still have to ask what was wrong with the paper scoring method, the rule book states that a hard copy must be made available to the shooter, and the green sheets were a problem too!

[lynn jones]

Palm scoring = Nightmare!!

Also I personally think it was the wrong match to roll it our at, and if it had been tried before the Nationals why did all the problems with it not get ironed out before hand?

dude, Rob Boudrie used the palm scoring system for the last 2 or 3 years at the Area 7.

there will always be a learning curve with new technology.

lynn

[Lexor40cal]

Palm scoring = Nightmare!!

Also I personally think it was the wrong match to roll it our at, and if it had been tried before the Nationals why did all the problems with it not get ironed out before hand?

dude, Rob Boudrie used the palm scoring system for the last 2 or 3 years at the Area 7.

there will always be a learning curve with new technology.

lynn

Did they experiance the same problems?

[lynn jones]

Palm scoring = Nightmare!!

Also I personally think it was the wrong match to roll it our at, and if it had been tried before the Nationals why did all the problems with it not get ironed out before hand?

dude, Rob Boudrie used the palm scoring system for the last 2 or 3 years at the Area 7.

there will always be a learning curve with new technology.

lynn

Did they experiance the same problems?

i think rob had several palm training sessions prior to the match.

i do like your idea of 2 palms per stage. the printer would be nice, but that can get real expensive. i have a couple of IR printers, but just jotting down the scores on paper is our backup, which is an necessity.

lynn

[Rob Boudrie]

As far as the verification, I believe they were verifying the scores against the hand written receipt the RO's gave out. I was told by one of the USPSA muckety mucks that he was in stats at 6:30 and they had scoresheets out verifying. Not sure what else he would have meant (note that was the LPR match).

Scores were uploaded to the in-house and internet servers at 6:09 PM, and the posting period ended at 7:10 PM for the O/L10. I don't remember the exact time for the LPR.

We did not check each score against what is printed on the yellow sheet. Once the data is in the Palm correctly, it transfers correctly to EzWinscore.

The Palm software allowed the RO to write down the hit totals before the data was saved to the unit's database (something I expect will be changed at my request). As a result, we had to search the hard copy to account for any missing score sheets as, even in the absence of Palm failure, we could not assume that a missing score from the imported data did, in fact, mean that the shooter did not shoot the stage. We only had a few of these, but each score is important and we did not consider it acceptable to "not worry about it and wait for correction requests" - so we manually checked the yellow sheets in each case of a missing score (except when it was clear the shooter did not complete the match - DQs, and a large sequential block of missing stages).

Since each competitor shot the match over three days, we were unable to complete this final check until the all the scores had been turned in to stats at the end of each match. Once the Palm software has been modified to preclude the reading of hit totals until the score has been saved to the handheld's database, the need to manually search for every missing score in the paper logs will disappear.

I have worked conventional stats at large matches (but never a nationals) and I am certain that paper scoresheets delivered on the timetable, and condition (rain, rain and more rain) present at the 2008 Nationals would have created a very difficult situation in the back room.

There are positive and negative aspects to both approaches, and paper is not as simple as "use paper sheets and the scores will appear on time".

[Thomas Moore]

How did they keep the Palm PDA's dry? Can you stick them in a Ziploc and still be able to see the screen?

[Lexor40cal]

How did they keep the Palm PDA's dry? Can you stick them in a Ziploc and still be able to see the screen?

That is exactly what they did, ziploc and the stylus still worked through the bag too

[Front Man]

How did they keep the Palm PDA's dry? Can you stick them in a Ziploc and still be able to see the screen?

That is exactly what they did, ziploc and the stylus still worked through the bag too

That is exactly what I had to do with my phone last Thursday & Friday.

Now I keep a zip lock bag for my crackberry in my vehicle

(I wasn't in Tulsa.)

FM

[Fireant]

Well, despite some growing pains I thought palm scoring went well. I did not have to keep up with a score sheet at each stage to turn in before I could walk the stage. The shooting order was easy to keep. When my bag got rained on I was not worried about my little stickers getting ruined. I'm now waiting for an affordable way for my small club to be able to use it.

[Hoofy]

One suggestion for the printed forms, just put one more block for HF.

It's right there on the palm and I think it would have helped.

Great job to all that worked so hard.

[shred]

On some stages to keep the palm dry they tried radioing the scores back to the palm guy in a tent. That was a big pain.. lots and lots of "say again?!?" and who knows if all the answers were correct. That's another downside to the reciepts-- you can't say 'where was that delta?' and see at a glance (maybe in time to correct a mistake) without digging back into the Palm itself, which the shooters didn't get to see unless they insisted.

[George Jones]

That's another downside to the reciepts-- you can't say 'where was that delta?' and see at a glance (maybe in time to correct a mistake) without digging back into the Palm itself, which the shooters didn't get to see unless they insisted.

I tried several methods. The one I think works the best for the shooter was to write down the data on the receipt before the shooter got there. Then, I showed him the Palm, pointing at the spots on the screen where the time and each of the targets was displayed and to the totals, Then I would point to the receipt where he could easily see that the numbers matched.