SteveZ Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 At last Sundays match I had something strange happen. I was engaging a target REALLY close (5 feet) and was about to transition to a steel popper at 10 yards. I had fired one round at the close paper target and when I went to fire the second, the gun had stopped, WTF? I looked at the gun to see what had happened and noticed the hammer was at half-cock, WTF!!!??? The gun (STI Edge) has about 5000 rounds on it and has NEVER had a problem with trigger (which breaks at about 27oz). At this point, I started wondering if I had possible out run the gun....pulling the trigger before the slide was fully forward. Of course everyone in my squad thought I was nuts and said its not possible to do that. At close target distances...I am slapping the trigger. I watched the gun for the rest of the match and didn't have a single problem. After the match was over, I went into one of the empty bays and ripped off 40 rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger. Then I did the "drop the slide on an empty chamber" test (I hate doing that) 5 times and it passed each time. Took the gun home and tore it down to the trigger components thinking maybe I'd find a piece of crud on the hammer hooks or sear (or somewhere) and found nothing. So I posed this question to some local FAST on the trigger guys...have you ever out run your gun and had the hammer follow (assuming the gun was mechanically safe and it didn't have trigger problems). The answer came back YES. So thats my question....is this possible? When it happened to me, the hammer was at the half-cock notch which means that either 1) it didn't engage the primary hammer hooks and dropped (the crud on the hammer hook theory) 2) the overtravel screw isn't set right (I check that...it is), 3) I possibly slapped the trigger so fast that the sear disengaged from the hammer...but I wasn't holding the trigger back and the sear caught the half-cock notch? or 4) my grip allowed me to nearly "bump fire" the gun (except my finger came back off the trigger)? What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Yes, I had it happen. There was a problem with the disconnector and sear, though, which had allowed me to take the shot before the slide had gone to full battery. In my case, it didn't go to half-cock, it actually fired the round. The second shot was so quick I (and the RO) thought the gun had doubled. It has never happened to me on a gun where everything was in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 There have been lots of threads concerning similiar issues with edges over the years on this forum. One particular thread went on for what seemed like 6 months or so and I believe that the issue was eventually fixed by a well known smith who also frequents this forum. Anyone ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg308 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I would think that it is hammer follow caused by a weak sear spring. Even though you did not get it to duplicate failure, if the sear spring is weak it will do it again. At last Sundays match I had something strange happen. I was engaging a target REALLY close (5 feet) and was about to transition to a steel popper at 10 yards. I had fired one round at the close paper target and when I went to fire the second, the gun had stopped, WTF? I looked at the gun to see what had happened and noticed the hammer was at half-cock, WTF!!!??? The gun (STI Edge) has about 5000 rounds on it and has NEVER had a problem with trigger (which breaks at about 27oz). At this point, I started wondering if I had possible out run the gun....pulling the trigger before the slide was fully forward. Of course everyone in my squad thought I was nuts and said its not possible to do that. At close target distances...I am slapping the trigger.I watched the gun for the rest of the match and didn't have a single problem. After the match was over, I went into one of the empty bays and ripped off 40 rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger. Then I did the "drop the slide on an empty chamber" test (I hate doing that) 5 times and it passed each time. Took the gun home and tore it down to the trigger components thinking maybe I'd find a piece of crud on the hammer hooks or sear (or somewhere) and found nothing. So I posed this question to some local FAST on the trigger guys...have you ever out run your gun and had the hammer follow (assuming the gun was mechanically safe and it didn't have trigger problems). The answer came back YES. So thats my question....is this possible? When it happened to me, the hammer was at the half-cock notch which means that either 1) it didn't engage the primary hammer hooks and dropped (the crud on the hammer hook theory) 2) the overtravel screw isn't set right (I check that...it is), 3) I possibly slapped the trigger so fast that the sear disengaged from the hammer...but I wasn't holding the trigger back and the sear caught the half-cock notch? or 4) my grip allowed me to nearly "bump fire" the gun (except my finger came back off the trigger)? What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pskys2 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Better check for cracks around the upper grip screws. I guess you never know. I knew a guy once who shot locally, an ok shooter and a great guy, but never won anything (even locally). I took him out and put a timer on him and told him close your eyes and let a double rip. I was shocked he was doing .11's on demand as normal as I'd do a .18!!! I swear he even hit a .09. But let him open his eyes, or try to hit something and he was lucky to do .25's at any range. BTW using his stock 1911 he never outran his pistol during the exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterbenedetto Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I have gotten the same problem. I even bought 2 set of trigger group, practice slapping the trigger (I thought it was me?) and finally, REPLACE THE GRIP!! everything was tight and gun runs flawless.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted August 27, 2008 Author Share Posted August 27, 2008 I've looked for signs of cracks and couldn't find anything. I'll say this...I don't think this is probable....but I do think giving exact timing (and probably a bunch of other circumstances, like grip, finger pressure, etc) that its possible. So what would you say if I came back 3000 rounds from and and say "and its never happened again"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming the Merciless Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I think the cyclic rate for a 1911 is around 20 rounds a second (1200 per minute) so unless your splits are under .05 seconds you're probably not outrunning the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 It simply sounds like your gun followed and the half-cock notch caught the hammer...as it is designed to. You might look into figuring out why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I've run mine lots of times fast enough that the timer did not pick up the splits. The timer I use won't pick up anything faster than .10 so I'm somewhere in the .09 range at least. None of my guns have ever done that without a problem. Last time I heard the cycle time on a 1911 was in the .05-.07 second range. Probably towards the latter side if you're shooting a heavy Edge. Even bouncing the trigger I don't think you're going to out run the gun. I think it's likely a gun malfunction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebg3 Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 When it happens to me, I'm running Bill Drills or shooting fast splits. It usually only happens when I'm tense or trying to beat a personal time. I blame it on sear bounce from having a very firm grip and using a light recoil spring. I can shoot 1.80 Bill Drills with no malfunctions if I feel smooth and relaxed, sometimes if I push a 1.75 BD and feel tense I may have a follow. I just don't think you are going to outrun the gun and cause a 1/2 follow...I may be wrong. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Physically impossible for a PROPERLY operating 1911 to let the hammer fall without the slide in battery by pressing the trigger. The hammer followed the slide down for some reason, could be a real problem and could have been just a chunk of powder or something that was in the way. If it happens again I would have the trigger reworked ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 Used to do it on my Edge alot ... but only on close fast targets. It did it mostly on rapid fire stuff. Bill drills. Can you count. That type of stuff. Had my smith replace one part here, and one thing there ..... Finally replaced all the internals at once with top quality stuff (pins included) and the problem vanished! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregory_k Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 hammer follow, look into fixing the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 PS ... Nothing against STI themselves, but STI internals are JUNK. I've had nothing but problems with STI hammers, sears, pins, FP stops, slide stops, and mag releases. I dont know what it is but, but if you are still using stock parts in your Edge: GET THEM OUT OF THERE. The rest of the gun (slide, barrell, & frame) is fine IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 Physically impossible for a PROPERLY operating 1911 to let the hammer fall without the slide in battery by pressing the trigger. The hammer followed the slide down for some reason, could be a real problem and could have been just a chunk of powder or something that was in the way. If it happens again I would have the trigger reworked ASAP. Ok...so assuming there is a problem with the gun that is somehow related to the trigger/disconnector/sear/hammer/spring....there is reason for it to be more prone to fail when I'm trying to go fast vs going slow? In other words, the defective part(s) will be just as likely to fail if I'm going slow as they would be if I'm going fast with respect to hammer follow....correct? It's not possible to have defective trigger components that will only fail if your going fast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Negative Ghost Rider .... the pattern is full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 The biggest thing that changes when you go to warp 9 speed is your grip pressure which changes the shape of the grip which in turn changes the sear spring pressure. If it follows again I would consider it broken for match purposes and have the trigger reworked completely, one hammer follow can cost you the match. Speed should have nothing to do with it, but most people really clamp down hard on the gun when shooting close fast targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 The biggest thing that changes when you go to warp 9 speed is your grip pressure which changes the shape of the grip which in turn changes the sear spring pressure. If it follows again I would consider it broken for match purposes and have the trigger reworked completely, one hammer follow can cost you the match. Speed should have nothing to do with it, but most people really clamp down hard on the gun when shooting close fast targets. I'd have to agree with Howard... I can rock splits and it's never happened to me. I have froze the trigger, but never had a half-cock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Uh out run the gun? No. People that say that don't know what the Fuuc they are talking about. I can shoot as fast splits as anybody. Now a messed up trigger job is a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 (edited) Uh out run the gun? No.People that say that don't know what the Fuuc they are talking about. I can shoot as fast splits as anybody. Now a messed up trigger job is a different story. In case any of you young pups don't know what Bill's avatar is about... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2AbTrzzjMg...feature=related Edited August 28, 2008 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Here is a video for ya. I don't think I out ran the gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Uncle Bill has been shooting fast splits for years. Blake doing some bump fire is cool too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Here is a video for ya. I don't think I out ran the gun I filmed that one! The more impressive rest of the story is that this was the last stage of the match after shooting 9 others in the H O T South Carolina sun. Digging deep = win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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