Time vs Points

[shooterbenedetto]

Shot a 32rd run and gun stage and had 17A,15C time 17.93sec. Open fast splits and transitions and seeing the dot somewhere in the middle of th target.

Shot the second time and shot 25A, 7C time 22.53sec. My montra was AAAAA.......while shooting. Felt like cadance was like limited shooting? not Open. Waiting on the gun to settle on each target, then fire shot in AAAAAA

What would win stages or overall?? Which one would you go for?

Thanks for the input.

SB

Edited August 25, 2008 by shooterbenedetto

[HoMiE]

Using your example, the higher HF is the 17A/15C in 17.93. I'd take that one. You shot 90% of the points, not bad, maybey could do a little better. You shot ~15% slower using your A mantra. At your level don't shoot cadence, shoot what you see, turn up your vision as they say.

[boz1911]

Points?? Overated .......Fast is always better.

[EZ Bagger]

Ultimately you'll have to do both. But, it's harder to learn the speed and all the components that make that happen than it is to learn accuracy at a slow speed. Don't forget the fundamentals, but speed is where it's at.

[HSMITH]

I would say that I TRY to shoot A's absolutely as fast as I can, in Open I usually end up shooting somewhere in the low 90's percentage of points available but I shoot every stage basically full throttle. I'll have a rainman moment here and there where I shoot really good points at high speed, but the norm is low 90's. I have moments where I should have a helmet and a drool cup too where I shoot really bad points, if you do it REALLY fast you don't look as dumb doing it LOL.

One of the reasons I went back to Limited for about 9 months was just the simple fact that to compete in Open you have to put the pedal to the metal on every single stage, you have to shoot LOTS of points and do it VERY fast. If you don't you get run over by the guys and gals that do.

[Hoofy]

Even if you look at the difference for Minor scoring, speed is your friend on a stage like that.

I am guilty of the same thought process whenever I shoot Production "just get the A's".

Giving up the clock kills because ALL of the points get divided by the time, not just ones that required a little extra.

[Hoofy]

Thanks Howard

I now have a new favorite quote:

if you do it REALLY fast -you don't look as dumb doing it.

[bkeeler]

In a match get your A's at your current natural speed. Work on speed in practice. The match is not won on 1 stage consistency on all stages within the match wins matches. You can win a match without any stage wins.

BK

[XRe]

What would you pick?

Both.

[Rocket35]

Definitely both, with a premium going to points at your natural speed. Consistancy wins.

[SouthpawG26]

I will always remember Flex' statement that shooting A's will take the same time as shooting C's (more or less), it's just in the amount of attention paid to the execution.

[shooterbenedetto]

At area2 last year, here are my stats:

219 A

5 B

49 C

9D

2 M

I came up 39th Open overall. I know a master open class had faster times and got 8 mikes?? and still came up 25th place?? How would you guys train? SPEED OR POINTS??

[bkeeler]

In a match get your A's at your current natural speed. Work on speed in practice. The match is not won on 1 stage consistency on all stages within the match wins matches. You can win a match without any stage wins.

BK

I should have said work on your natural speed in practice. In other words to get your natural speed up in a match work on it in practice.

BK

[bkeeler]

At area2 last year, here are my stats:

219 A

5 B

49 C

9D

2 M

I came up 39th Open overall. I know a master open class had faster times and got 8 mikes?? and still came up 25th place?? How would you guys train? SPEED OR POINTS??

He didnt win the match did he!

BK

[little_kahuna]

I have been struggling with this same issue. I'm leaning ever more towards points/consistency as opposed to raw speed. After many experiments, I believe that the time to turn it up is during practice. Match day is the time to chill out, shoot at a comfortable speed, and see enough to call 90-95% of the available points. If you're getting more than 95% of the points, I don't think it would hurt you to turn the speed up a bit, but if you drop below 85% points, then you should probably turn up the visual patience and focus.

I did not have enough visual patience at Norco this weekend, and the penalties showed it. SWPL was better for me.

In training, whatever your drills are, be able to burn 'em down. Then make sure you can shoot every "A". If you increase your natural speed and maintain consistent "good" points, then the match will show it. Each successive match should display good points, smoother/faster times than the last. IMO, Speed should always be the variable in this equation.

In the search for balance between speed and accuracy, if one should err, let him err on the side of accuracy.

my $0.02

-LK

ps: good topic

Edited August 25, 2008 by little_kahuna

[Turbo23]

In most cases you wont win a match in one stage....

But boy can you loose one...

A wise man told me that if I am going to dig my self a hole. Try to use a spoon. That way I have a chance to fill the hole back in. If I used a backhoe... then the spoon will never fill in that hole in time to recover.

Consistancy rules suppreme.

[38supPat]

Repeat after me:

pointspointspointspointspointspointspointspointspointspointspoints!

[waxman]

Very interesting. I recenty lost a match to another shooter. On a stage that I knew was close, I thought I might only a loose a few %, if anything.I had 79 points, and he had 78. , so practically equal points. His time, was 8.16, mine was 9.50 so thats what 1.3 seconds, that little bit of time put him at 100%, and me at 87%. I lost 13 % for right around a second. So that should tell you something. As long as there are no misses, time, is way more important.

[38supPat]

It's hard to use individual stages as references. I too recently shot a stage, a 40 point stage. I shot it 8 points down in 2.76. The stage winner shot it in 3.21 down 1 point. I was 5% behind him despite being a half second faster...so my math says its better to shoot points.

Really though, you just cannot afford to give up points...but if you take eons longer to shoot you are no better off.

[shooterbenedetto]

Here you go guys PRESS RELEASE FROM GRAUFFEL!!

http://www.ericgrauffel.com

He stresses points wins all the time! I'll shoot speed and use my mantra for AAAAAAAA.

concentrate on smoothness instead of fast!! I'll take it as it is and hope that I'll just get better

as years go by. AT LEAST I KNOW I WONT GET ANY WORSE??

[Flexmoney]

Waiting on the gun to settle on each target, then fire shot in AAAAAA

Sounds like you need to learn how to drive the gun more efficiently. Burkett's timing drills can help.

[SRT Driver]

You have to know how much the points are worth. On a 5 hf stage a point is worth .2. A 10 hf stage, a point is worth .1.

The problem is knowing your skills and how fast YOU might shoot the stage.

[shooterbenedetto]

You have to know how much the points are worth. On a 5 hf stage a point is worth .2. A 10 hf stage, a point is worth .1.

The problem is knowing your skills and how fast YOU might shoot the stage.

How do you determine the hit factor on a stage? Do you gauge it by having a GM shoot it

since he will set the bar hit factor?

[SRT Driver]

You have to know how much the points are worth. On a 5 hf stage a point is worth .2. A 10 hf stage, a point is worth .1.

The problem is knowing your skills and how fast YOU might shoot the stage.

How do you determine the hit factor on a stage? Do you gauge it by having a GM shoot it

since he will set the bar hit factor?

Practice! I know that sounds cliche, but the way a GM shoots a stage probably is going to be different than how you might shoot it. He/she has ability that you may or may not have. And GM's know how long it takes them to do things.

You have to look at a stage and think it takes me x number of seconds to move this distance, x seconds to reload, and x tenths between splits. Then you get a good estimated time for you as a starting point. The key is your estimated time..not a GM's. How you can best shoot the stage.

For example, you have a 100 pt stage with about two steps of movement. Nothing hard and targets at 10 yards. It is most likley a 10 factor stage..you think you could probably do it clean in 10 seconds. A point is worth .1.

Another stage is also 100 points with a 20 yards laterally between the first an last shooting positions, 5 doors and your gun locked in a safe. You know it is going to take you 3 sec to open the safe and 3 seconds to move the between the 5 doors and open the doors. That is 18 seconds without shooting a round. You shoot .2 splits usually and the targets are close so the transitions are about the same (4 seconds) but one target you have to shoot prone through a low port so add another second. Total of 23 seconds. Factors out to about 4.3 hf so a point is worth .2 and change.

Don't get caught in the trap of copying anyone. For example, I shot a stage recently and did pretty well on it (won the stage). After I shot, everyone on my squad shot it exactly the same way I did but didn't do as well. One shooter asked why I went from the right box when I could have started at the left and not shot weak hand on the last shot around a corner. I explained that I'm left handed so my last shot was strong hand and I shoot a lot of strong/weak hand drills.

Hope this helps.

[davecutts]

NO one's done the math here ... first run = HF @ 8.0870 second run = HF @ 6.7909. This puts the second run at 83.97 % of the first run. So assuming he's won the stage with his first run 160 match points vs. 134.3520, that's 25.648 match points. Yes points (or Alphas) win matches, but the 4.60 second difference between the two runs on any stage is a LOT of time and not worth 8C's.

Now throw a penalty in there, an extra charlie, and 3 delta's and his second run almost comes out on top.

Ed trust me winning stages sucks, winning the match is alright.