Palm Pilot scoring

[brboyer]

Did I read this right. The developer spent 5 man years full-time developing this software? That's 10,400 hours!

[EZ Bagger]

Did I read this right. The developer spent 5 man years full-time developing this software? That's 10,400 hours!

Even if that's an exaggeration, it makes the point that it was not a cheap product for him to develop. Unfortunately for him, he developed a $375 product that's barely worth $5 in marginal value to the average shooter.

[tpcdvc]

In our case the palms cost about 1000.00 dollars.

Perfectly functional Palm IIIEs can be purchased all day long for ten or fifteen bucks apiece on sites like eBay. I know this because I still use them for my work calendar. Won't the scoring software work with those?

10 IIIxe at 39.00 a piece. 2 titaniums at just under 279 a piece plus tax = 306 per unit. All palms totaled 1002. I rounded down.

Tim

edited to add: the really old palms can work but you need software upgrades to run the system and then they are really slow.

Edited August 6, 2008 by tpcdvc

[brboyer]

Did I read this right. The developer spent 5 man years full-time developing this software? That's 10,400 hours!

Even if that's an exaggeration, it makes the point that it was not a cheap product for him to develop. Unfortunately for him, he developed a $375 product that's barely worth $5 in marginal value to the average shooter.

That he wants $240K+ per year for!

[Resjudicata]

Guys, I had started this thread in hopes that the powers that be made sure that when something like the Palm Scoring was used (or any new technology) they made sure that it was used well so that the shooters didn't suffer. I don't really think it is apropriate to use this forum or this thread to bag on the guy for trying to market his software that he developed on his own. I really don't care if he spent 2 hours and $25 to develop it. If he can sell it for more then more power to him. Now if USPSA is going to try and charge all clubs a fee for this software whether we like it or not then our beef is with USPSA not really with the developer.

Chris Davies, I appreciate all the work you and your guys did in hosting Area 3. As I said in an earlier post I didn't mean for this thread to come across as bagging on you and your guys or the developer of the software. I just want to talk about how this system is used in big matches.

I'm actually all for the use of new technology to help with our sport. I just don't want it used simply for the sake of using it without considering how it effects all the shooters. I would like to see continued development which it looks like is already being done and maybe a special certification process for RO's to use this system in a big match. I don't think that is too much to ask and I'm sure it would be for everyone's benefit in the long run.

Chris

[Jim Norman]

With the advent of tablet PCs I would like to see a version of EZWin that could be used in a manner similar to the palms. OR maybe we could do a fill in the circle scoresheet system and get inexpensive optical scanners to score with?

Th

ere must be many ways to accomplish this goal at far less than the millions that are being asked and on platforms that are not already years out of date.

Jim

[tpcdvc]

Guys, I had started this thread in hopes that the powers that be made sure that when something like the Palm Scoring was used (or any new technology) they made sure that it was used well so that the shooters didn't suffer. I don't really think it is apropriate to use this forum or this thread to bag on the guy for trying to market his software that he developed on his own. I really don't care if he spent 2 hours and $25 to develop it. If he can sell it for more then more power to him. Now if USPSA is going to try and charge all clubs a fee for this software whether we like it or not then our beef is with USPSA not really with the developer.

Chris Davies, I appreciate all the work you and your guys did in hosting Area 3. As I said in an earlier post I didn't mean for this thread to come across as bagging on you and your guys or the developer of the software. I just want to talk about how this system is used in big matches.

I'm actually all for the use of new technology to help with our sport. I just don't want it used simply for the sake of using it without considering how it effects all the shooters. I would like to see continued development which it looks like is already being done and maybe a special certification process for RO's to use this system in a big match. I don't think that is too much to ask and I'm sure it would be for everyone's benefit in the long run.

Chris

The USPSA is us. So who better to have the discussion with?

[Hoofy]

Did I read this right. The developer spent 5 man years full-time developing this software? That's 10,400 hours!

At $23/hour, that would make him the highest paid individual at USPSA.

[Resjudicata]

I think a good addition for this system or some other system is to use a small credit card printer on each stage that prints out a carbon copy of the score for that competitor rather than the RO's hand writing what the score is on a slip of paper. This way whatever the score is that is entered into the handheld system is exactly what is printed and given to the shooter.

Of course I'm talking about use of a printer at big matches rather than just local club matches where the final score has less hanging on it.

Chris

With the advent of tablet PCs I would like to see a version of EZWin that could be used in a manner similar to the palms. OR maybe we could do a fill in the circle scoresheet system and get inexpensive optical scanners to score with?

Th

ere must be many ways to accomplish this goal at far less than the millions that are being asked and on platforms that are not already years out of date.

Jim

[Rob Boudrie]

I think a good addition for this system or some other system is to use a small credit card printer on each stage that prints out a carbon copy of the score for that competitor rather than the RO's hand writing what the score is on a slip of paper.

If you can identify hardware (scoring handheld and printer combo for a couple of $20s or less) that can do this cost effectively, please let me know.

[JThompson]

I think a good addition for this system or some other system is to use a small credit card printer on each stage that prints out a carbon copy of the score for that competitor rather than the RO's hand writing what the score is on a slip of paper.

If you can identify hardware (scoring handheld and printer combo for a couple of $20s or less) that can do this cost effectively, please let me know.

Wireless which will work with the palm to give the shooters a hard copy. Looks like may be a good solution and in the event of a catastrophe, everyone would have a copy of their stages. The shooter needs a hardcopy from every stage... Without it, I think you are asking for major problems. Shooters need to be able to check what they have against the final scores.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=S...G=Google+Search

Edited August 6, 2008 by JThompson

[Rob Boudrie]

Battery operated, $40 - I'll talk to Peter. It would be a lot of paper - regular sized sheets (or cutting from rolls), with two copies per shooter, but worth a look.

[wgnoyes]

With the advent of tablet PCs I would like to see a version of EZWin that could be used in a manner similar to the palms. OR maybe we could do a fill in the circle scoresheet system and get inexpensive optical scanners to score with?

I think we talked about tablets once before. If we holler now about the cost of palms, get a load of what tablet pc's cost that are robust enough to be used outside all day in heat and rain. (Super-expensive Panasonic Toughbooks, anyone?) Not to mention they're not exactly light in weight!

[JThompson]

Battery operated, $40 - I'll talk to Peter. It would be a lot of paper - regular sized sheets (or cutting from rolls), with two copies per shooter, but worth a look.

I don't know if it's cost effective or not, but it got me thinking... I did a quick search and defer to your judgement.

JT

[kimel]

Our campus parking enforcement uses battery operated thermal printers to print parking tickets (via bluetooth to Windows Mobile handheld devices). Their printers run about $500 a pop. But they have lasted through daily use in all weather conditions for several years now with very minimal failures.

If you are going to make a match dependant on any technology it has to work 100% of the time in 100/100 heat (degrees/humidity), down to below freezeing, in the rain (I hear it rained a little in Tulsa last year for Nats), etc. No $40 printer will make it, IMHO. Hell, my experience with the two Palm devices I owned before defecting to Windows Mobile were very temperature sensitive at either extreme.

Another consideration is that inexpensive thermal paper will turn entirely black if left in the sun for very long. So you give a competitor his scores and they go black on him a few minutes later. Yeah, they won't be pissed about that. The "paper" our parking folks use is actually a polyester that is akin to tyvex house wrap. Hard to destroy and doesn't turn all black in the sunlight.

I'm working both sides of the handgun Nats this year and am looking forward to the Palm scoring just to see what it is like. I scored myself in some local matches with a demo copy of the Palm stuff a few years ago and was favorably impressed.

[BritinUSA]

Just throwing this out for thought; Rather than table PC's what about iPod-Touch... There is a software application package available for it now. The screen is bright enough to use in direct sunlight, it's touch sensitive and has plenty of memory (8mb is the minimum).

There are also some apps to view .pdf files. So RO's could download the entire rulebook in .pdf format and have the rulebook available online too

The cost is a bit high at the moment but in a few years time the cost will drop considerably. I think USPSA/IPSC needs to think of where they want to be five years from now vis-a-vis technology/scoring and try to move hardware/software in the direction that we need.

[shred]

IMO. If USPSA is going to spend a million dollars every four years, it would be far far better spent on ranges and marketing.

If we must have a Palm scoring system, put it out for an open bid, you know, sort of like the original 1911 Army trials... Peter would have an inside track since his SW is already done, but anybody else could play if they wanted.

Touch devices are getting incredibly cheap. The downside is cheap touch devices wear out. Half of the $20 palms on E-bay have very worn or dead touch screen zones. ITO doesn't flex forever. iPod-style capacitive touch is the way to go near term, and by 2010 there will be a lot of other ways to do non-wearing-out touch screens.

[Jim Norman]

Blackberry, I-Phone Something? Anything, but to spend millions on a scoring program that runs on obsolete equipment is wrong.

My comments on the tablet PC may be off, i don't have one and have no idea how they work or if. It was intended to get the thread moving towards the future. Similar to what Shred said. I cannot see spending a few thousand and having to depend on rebuilt/used/abused Palms from EBay to score our matches. Sure the program would be nice and it would be really sweet to have it all done and write out the prize checks within an hour of last shot, but not at the cost associated so far.

Jim

[Rob Boudrie]

While I have not spent time documenting the transfer files, the format is plain ASCII, not encrypted, and pretty easy to figure out. I'll even answer questions.

I've told Peter that I will do absolutely nothing to undermine any of his property ownership in the program, however, I also told him that I will not add anything to EzWinscore for the specific purpose of preventing other people from interfacing their handheld scoring system to EzWinScore. I consider him a friend, but I represent the interests of USPSA and it's members, not AutoscoringSystems or any other vendor. If you are considering developing a handheld scoring program, you don't have to worry about having the rug pulled out from underneath you through the standard tactics (obfuscation, file format changes that are not required for any functional reason other than locking out third party vendors, cryptographic checksum, etc.)

Peter's program took a very long time to develop since it includes much functionality not utilized when the Palm is used for "score collection", rather than match management or results calculation. I would guess that use with EzWinScore probably exercises less than 25% of the code. I know how to tell the difference between good and bad software, and this code is good.

Under USPSA rules, handheld scoring systems for use with EzWinScore have to be approved by the USPSA president. I don't expect approval to be unreasonably withheld, but I would also encourage the USPSA president to not approve any new program for use at an Area Championship until it has a proven track record at local matches.

So, if you want to develop a program for the Pocket PC, Tablet PC, Ipod or abacus, go right ahead. Once it's ready, you can announce it, and your pricing plan, on the Enosverse and chances are a new thread discussing your program will pop up.

IMO. If USPSA is going to spend a million dollars every four years, it would be far far better spent on ranges and marketing.

USPSA has never, at any time, considered spending this kind of money (or anything anywhere near it) on any kind of software. I would rate the chances of that happening right up there with the likleyhood of a USPSA contribution to the Brady group.

If we must have a Palm scoring system, put it out for an open bid, you know, sort of like the original 1911 Army trials... Peter would have an inside track since his SW is already done, but anybody else could play if they wanted.

I doubt USPSA will make funding such a project a priority since it's an optional "extra", and we have a backlog of mission critical projects to be completed. I think it's great that someone has stepped forward with a viable program and hope that the supply/demand equilibrium will sort itself out and it will become widely used - but, that's not my department .

[XRe]

So, if you want to develop a program for the Pocket PC, Tablet PC, Ipod or abacus, go right ahead. Once it's ready, you can announce it, and your pricing plan, on the Enosverse and chances are a new thread discussing your program will pop up.

Just a thought - if one wanted to do an application w/ Tablet PCs, seems like setting up a WiFi network on the range (cheap) and running EZWS on the tablets would be the "leveraged" way to do it... Very much the same as running multiple match computers - obviously, you'd need training for the ROs running them (cause there are gotchas to EZWS, just like anything else).

The other "slick" way to do it would be to develop a mid-ware piece that could talk EZWS on one end, and http on the other - any web enabled device could be used to score the match via a web browser (again, assuming WiFi or something on the range). That's obviously more work, but it removes hardware specificity from the picture entirely...

Anyway... If I had the time, I'd write something up as a POC, but.... Time? What time?

[Rob Boudrie]

There is a lot of talk about what someone ELSE should do or fund but none of the critics are offering to actually do anything.

Peter created this program on his own (actually he has a developer) with no funding from USPSA. All effort spent by USPSA staff has been fully paid for by Peter through an "unlimited for nationals use, forever" license granted in return for the addition of the EzWinscore integration feature.

So, would one of you please step up and either write a program on the better platform, or provide funding for a developer to get started?

The other "slick" way to do it would be to develop a mid-ware piece that could talk EZWS on one end, and http on the other

This is very straightforward - set up a local Apache server, and write a PHP+MySQL database system to accept registrations from the palm transfer format, and generate palm transfer format input files to EzWinScore (MS weenies could use ASP+SqlServer). Then, all you have to do it get WiFi to each range; make sure every RO has a web enabled handheld; and keep someone on hand who is familiar with the nuances of each platform. It sounds cool, but I don't really think this is the kind of thing that is practical at matches. Just getting Wifi routers to cover an entire range could be a painful task, then you have to worry about supporting everyone's connection - and you've introduced a single point of failure (the server) that can bring the match to a standstill.

It I thought this was viable, I would have already done it

[BritinUSA]

As you mentioned, people are free to develop their own software and if the code is good then people will use it, if it isn't then they won't. This is the ideal way for the best products to rise to the top. I have used the Palm software and it is very good and intuitive in it's design.

The Palm software as it stands can score an entire match in isolation, ie. it does not need to interface to EZWINSCORE or any other application.

If I were to develop something like this I would not code much of the function that Peter has developed as the EZWINSCORE could be used for match management and the hand-held device would be used solely for data-entry. This will simplify code development/design quite considerably.

Design would be broken down to 3 sections;

1. Transferring shooter/stage information from EZWINSCORE into the hand-held device.

2. Input of scores/times/penalties etc. by RO (includes shooter verification of scores and potential hard-copy).

3. Transfer of score-data back into EZWINSCORE for final computation.

Obviously this is very high-level design and there are a myriad of various things/functions to take into account.

I may try writing something just for the sake of a challenge (once I upgrade to an Intel-Mac in a few months). I'll have to learn a new programming language (iPod SDK). Making something commercially available might be a problem as the company that I work for would probably claim intellectual property rights on it (I'll have to look into that).

[Flexmoney]

As mentioned. It doesn't seem like there is a software issue. Currently, their is a pricing/marketing issue. And, perhaps...down the road...there is a hardware issue (with the Palms).

We don't need the latest and greatest...in terms of software or hardware...ever. We just need something that provides the functionality.

The Palms are relatively cheap and readily available (for hardware). The software seems to work and work well.

So, the issue is...what is it worth? (worth does not have any correlation to what it cost to develop)

[EZ Bagger]

So, the issue is...what is it worth? (worth does not have any correlation to what it cost to develop)

Uh oh. Now you've done it....

[bgary]

The other "slick" way to do it would be to develop a mid-ware piece that could talk EZWS on one end, and http on the other - any web enabled device could be used to score the match via a web browser (again, assuming WiFi or something on the range). That's obviously more work, but it removes hardware specificity from the picture entirely...

I've always thought that kind of approach would be very cool from another angle. Imagine, at the nationals (or whatever), if we could put "billboards" on each stage showing the top HFs on that stage so far. Real-time wireless score-entry from the RO's handheld to a central scoring computer, which then real-time updates standings and spews them out over wireless to subscribed displays. Voila. As soon as a shooter's run is scored, he/she knows exactly how that score stands up. Could also put "kiosks" around the range that would allow shooters to check their standings in class, in division, in category, or against user-selected competitors. Might take an awful lot of the "our sport isn't spectator-friendly" off the table (look at how cool it is at the Steel Challenge to see times flash by on the big displays!)

It's all completely do-able. All it takes is money and time (of which I have neither <g>)

B