An Alarming Trend

[Loves2Shoot]

If you guys want to see some good LE shooters come the the PAC NW, we have more than a couple cops who kick butt in IPSC. I think a lot of it comes down to time and $$$. Cops don't always have a lot of either, and shooting isn't cheap.

[Rufus The Bum]

Excellent points by everyone. I have offered to keep firearms for Airman who choose not to deal with the base armory and have been taken up on that offer several times, we have several pilots and non LEO military that shoot with us, so the interest is there. I think alot of clubs don't even consider having an Open House and advertising the event. I don't own the club I shoot at, but if I did, a large part of my profit would go into advertsing, that is the BEST thing we can do to get people to come out to our ranges. USPSA will donate Front Sight Magazines for an event such as an open house, but you have to ask.

[gmshtr]

Detlef,

One reason the Area 4 may not be attracting more shooters is that it takes three F#$KING days to shoot a match that could be done in one. That, along with the fact that the competitors are told (during the awards) that they have to be present to get something off of the prize table.

That really rubbed me the wrong way. The explaination I got was that the sponsors wanted it that way......hell, I'm a sponsor, and I don't remember wanting the competitors to get screwed. Especially after having to spend four days of leave, hotel, rental car, air fare, etc. to shoot a match.

I know what's coming - "Phil only shoots matches for the prizes." Well, those who know me, know that's not true, but is that the impression we should be leaving on the competitors? I brought a shooter in 2000 to his first Area 4, who swore to never return...and hasn't. The new Area 4 shooter I brought this year also got shafted at the table(we had to catch our flight back home). He's never coming back.

For all of you future match directors out there, treat your sponsors good, treat your shooters better, treat your staff best. And if you want Shooters Paradise to sponsor your match, make preparations for out of town winners.

BTW, don't get any bright ideas. I've already donated well over my max this year!

Phil Strader (LEO shooter)

www.shootersparadise.com

[Detlef]

Phil,

you are of course hitting my personal favorite: Schedules and shooter friendliness. Here is a conversation that I have had with a match organizer somewhere sometime .... :

"Is there any way that I can shoot the match in less than 3 days, I really cannot afford it work-wise?"

"No. Besides, you have to be present to claim a prize"

"I really don't attend for getting prizes, I just love to shoot, and I have all the firing pins I could ever need for the next 2000 years! Maybe you can make an exception, I am a long-time <the match> attendant?!?"

"No, everyone must be present all days. We cannot make exceptions because everyone wants to shoot it in one day. The sponsors don't like that."

The correspondent on the other side, to be sure, was very polite and likeable but apparently had no leeway. I don't think he/she realized the irony in the words *we cannot do it because everyone wants it*!!! And how do the sponsors like poor attendance?

On the other hand, not all 3-day 12-stages matches are dying. Think of Area 2, alive and well in spite of it. *But* they have the big dogs coming, and usually great stages, in a great location. But it seems if you're not offering *any* of the above attractions (big prizes, shooter friendliness, great stages, attractive location, big dogs coming), then you're on your way down....

--Detlef

[shred]

If it makes you feel better Phil, we agreed you got screwed while we were driving home. If there hadn't been a longer than-usual delay in getting everything out and awarded, you could easily have visited the table.

In the past I have seen problems with Area 4 (and other matches) where seemingly random people would walk up and claim prizes for dozens of folks with no checking or anything (check Florida Open this year, I heard somebody stole Matt Burkett's entry) but what I'd like to see is one more sticker in your shooter packet-- your prize-table-ticket. If you have to leave, give that ticket to somebody to pick something for you. Not your name that just got called? No ticket, no prize, no exceptions.

[Wakal]

We tried to keep things honest at Area 4...each table had a person with a list...checked each shooter off as they came by, and made sure folks who didn't know what goodies were what had an idea (I can't remember how many times I had to explain what a Springfield M6 was )

My own prize table pet peeve...well, my SECOND pet peeve (the first is the same person snagging stuff for a dozen of his imaginary friends as already mentioned...tacky, just tacky) is folks swapping tables. The Open guy snagging stuff off the Limited table, the Lim-10 guy snagging revolver goodies, etc. Just take your firing pin and go!

When playing CRO at another match, many folks questioned the logic of having folks show up the third day to shoot one...count them...one...stage. The match director had promised one particular vender...also no names, but I've made my feelings clear on that vender elsewhere...that EVERYONE would shoot Sunday, and thus force EVERYONE to show up and maybe buy stuff.

Yeah, right.

Even the vender in question packed up early and left.

I can see some sucking up to venders...after all, the prize table would be an endless ocean of sucky crap instead of all the cool stuff (just for the record: Area 4 BBQ sauce is DEEE-licious (where is the lip-smacking icon?)...but this three-day format sucks. Lets start at 0700, run until 1500 the second day, get someone on the mic WHO CAN TALK...and run the awards fast. I think that a combined prize table and awards presentation would be pretty neat...run it from the top down, one shooter at a time, hand plaques off at the head of the prize table...

Just my .021 cents (Canadian).

Alex

[Rufus The Bum]

I agree with Phil that A4 is just drug out tooooo long. We would shoot a couple of stages, then break for an hour and 15 minutes or lunch or whatever. 3 day's is just too long. I was so wore out at the end that I wasn't even interested in attending the awards, I just wanted to get home. Why was there people still shooting well after the match was supposed to have ended? I come to shoot, not sit around and wait to shoot. This was the 3rd year I've attended and have left each time feeling less than happy about it was organized.

[rhino]

Here is a message I posted a while ago on the unofficial ipsc e-mail list:

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:50:52 -0500

To: Unofficial IPSC E-Mail List <ipsc@shooters.com>

From: Joseph Viray <rhino@link2000.net>

Subject: [iPSC] My Foolproof Scheme to Boost IPSC Membership and Thus Save Our

Sport

I've thought of a way to make our number skyrocket, at least in USPSA. And

I think Michael Bane will like this idea. (forgive me if someone else has

thought of it first)

The beauty is the simplicity . . . just two steps to tens of thousands of

new members.

STEP 1: We all wear brightly colored, spandex bodysuits and get bad

haircuts, plus assorted faux piercings and tattoos. (Clearly the

capability and desire for decorating the guns and gear already exists).

STEP 2: Change the name from "practical shooting" to "EXTREME Shooting."

If we put the word "extreme" in there, every kid in America from 15 to 35

is going to want to do it regardless of what it is.

Here's how it will work for us:

SKATEBOARDER/THRASHER "Rex": "Dude! I don't want to go shoot guns with

rednecks! I totally want to hurtle down the side of a swimming pool and

break bones I haven't broken yet, dude!"

New EXTREME shooting convert: "Dude, it's not that stuffy old redneck

practical shooting . . . dude this is EXTREME shooting!"

Rex: "Whoa, dude! I'm SO going to try that!"

See? Foolproof (as long as we don't mind having thrashers named "Rex"

around us all the time)!

If we do it now, we can ride the coattails of the soon-to-be-released

movie, "Extreme Ops" (wherein we learn that highly trained, heavily armed

mercenaries can be handily defeated by simply engaging in extreme sports

such as snowboarding)

[Liota]

Coffee on screen! wipe wipe wipe

Oh, Gawd! That's so perfect! Do we really hve to dress in spandex??? I love you guys and all, but...well, that is really the issue, isn't it? Just say "NO!" to spandex.

I hate to see a new shooter get treated poorly. We want them to come back. Our club is very fortunate. Attendance is growing at the matches. It may be due to the addition of the 3-gun side match, but I think it has to do with friendly people.

Liota

[a-44978]

Phil Strader ,WOW!cool,i got to see you a little 2002 fl open.

As a biginner it's cool to provoke such a potpourri of replies

I think i'll take a brak or braek or whatever for a while .

I spent some time with a couple of new shooters tonight (their hooked) and that was warm and fuzzy feeling.

Somtimes i feel like a moony selling flowers at the airport "Excuse me sir, are you aware of the rewarding fun and skills found in the shooting sports"

Maybe more 3 gun, they seem to be a little more laid back (just my perseption)

This sport beats pool to a bloody pulp(to death not enough)

After a little reflection i've come to this conclusion (more like mantra)

Be part of the problem or part of the solution

Pounce on any lazzyass that complains about poor courses or participation with that line and listen to the complacent silince.

I did that tonight to a G-somthing(classification).Not throwing stones

Maybe guilt will work for those who have no valid reason not to help

Rant time over, doc says stick to the meds.Purple pill time or was it the yellow huuuuuuuuumm oh hell, take one of each

Thanks again to everyone for the input

[rhino]

          Coffee on screen!      wipe wipe wipe

Oh, Gawd! That's so perfect! Do we really hve to dress in spandex??? I love you guys and all, but...well, that is really the issue, isn't it? Just say "NO!" to spandex.

We all have to make a few sacrifices to Save Our Sport!

If we don't wear the spandex, it'll be much tougher to sell it as X-Treme Shooting! rhino

I'm willing to make concessions, though. All male shooters will wear a (modestly sized) codpiece. This will prevent offending the ladies (and embarrassing some of the gents).

[kimel]

Can we use Tactical Codpieces with mag pouches built-in? Obviously that would be out for Production.

Actually, there was an outfit here locally a few years back that was making utility codpieces. They enjoyed a brief (very brief...like 90 days) resurgence in popularity and then fell away.

Can I wear a sporin instead? Do I have to wear a kilt to wear a sporin? How about a Utilikilt?

I really do worry about spandex. Not sure it can be built so as to actually fit many of we MAFGs, myself included.

[Ironman]

Toooo funny Rino! But no spandex for this fat old man. It would be too distracting for the other "dudes" popping caps.

[Rufus The Bum]

I think it outta be made mandatory for you to wear a thong, flip flops and a loin cloth when you visit the prize table if you shoot over 20% above your classification at an Area or Nationals match, that might even out the field a little bit.

[cardboardkiller]

Matt,

Since I'm home for a while you can add another to the list that will be shooting both at CASA. I guess since I'm not around all year to provide comic relief the club falls apart. I'm going to try to hit Linker this month. See you in a couple of weeks.

I found out that I won't be able to shoot the IDPA Nat's, I'm leaving for work on Sept. 10th and I won't be home until at least Nov. 22nd. I can't take it!!!! It looks like I may be nailing down a full time job in Florida, I should know by the end of the summer so maybe I can get back into shooting regularly and start molesting some new clubs.

[Liota]

          Coffee on screen!      wipe wipe wipe

Oh, Gawd! That's so perfect! Do we really hve to dress in spandex??? I love you guys and all, but...well, that is really the issue, isn't it? Just say "NO!" to spandex.

We all have to make a few sacrifices to Save Our Sport!

If we don't wear the spandex, it'll be much tougher to sell it as X-Treme Shooting!™ rhino

I'm willing to make concessions, though. All male shooters will wear a (modestly sized) codpiece. This will prevent offending the ladies (and embarrassing some of the gents).

Rhino,

I was talking about myself. BDUs hide a multitude of sins. In that regard, I am extremely sinful.

Liota

[j1b]

Wish I'd read this topic a long time ago - very cool points and observations.

Couple of things I thought about while I was reading -

1) The volunteers at a local level are tough to come by no doubt. The ones that do the work are generally the only one's that do the work. I would think that it would be beneficial to reward those people, either with a cooked dinner, a cook out, cash, an awards ceremony - something every year that say's Thanks! We know you work your ass off and we don't appreciate you enough.

2) In order to make the integration of new shooters easier - it may be beneficial for some clubs to schedule two types of matches at two different times. Classifications wouldn't change really - just the difficulty of the match. Make the Difficult matches extremely tough - for the folks that are looking for a challenge. Make the easier matches exceptionally easy - so shooters can walk away feeling like the are competant.

3) On Area 3 and Area 4 - I agree with Brian. Those were THE two matches to hit between oh . . . 92 and 97. For one - because of prizes. But also because all the big dogs knew that the other big dogs would be there - and a challenge would be had. In my opinion Area 3 was one of the biggest matches on the venue - not because of prizes - but because EVERYONE was there. I think at some point in time the big guys realized that winning an area match really didn't do that much to the resume (for sponsorships) so the focus then became on Nats and worlds (which the number of those matches increased through those same years, decreasing again the emphasis on area matches). It was a natural progression. Why travel to compete at a match that won't get you anything more than a trophy equivilant to the one you win at home, with the same type of competition, and competitive atmosphere? Hard to say if it is right or wrong - but nowadays the competition at State level is equivilant to an area match - and generally a little more affordable.

4) College kids are broke - and thing the market is there - but if it weren't for sponsorships there is no way I would have competed the way I did when I was in college. It is an untapped market though - worth looking at if we can make it financially feasible (so it doesn't interfere with values beer money)

JB

[Duane Thomas]

At the IDPA matches run at the Renton Fish & Game Club in Renton, Washington they have a very new-shooter friendly policy. It was noticed that newbies at the matches tended to be totally overwhelmed with all the new stuff - so much so they weren't the safest people in the world to be around with guns in their hands. So now, at the beginning of every match, all the new shooters, those who've never before fired a match, are identified and split off into their own squad. The club president, Rick Breneman, then takes charge of that squad, and kind of takes them aside to explain to them the rules of the sport, safe gunhandling and range safety, how to use cover, etc., etc. Then they fire some of the stages, the emphasis there on just being safe and smooth and getting through the experience. They might not get to fire all the stages, but at least several. Then, next match, they're okay to go into the regular squads.

There are new shooters at every match. And enough of them are coming back that the IDPA club has gone from starting out with attendance much less than the IPSC matches at the same club, to equaling or even sometimes exceeding it. There are of course many reasons for this - a good atmosphere, good stages, etc. - but a lot of it has to go to the thought put into how to safely and painlessly integrate new shooters into the club.

[SiG Lady]

rhino strikes again!!!!!!

[Detlef]

interesting point of view, Jack. But how do you explain that some Area (and equivalent) matches still strive? Area 2 (I guess you could say it's a home town match for 5-10 big-name shooters)? Florida Open (the one and only commercial IPSC match in the US. I think it' s obvious that the big boys come for the prize money, and the rest of the crowd for the big boys and the great stages...)?

--Detlef

[rhino]

I was talking about myself. BDUs hide a multitude of sins. In that regard, I am extremely sinful. 

All I have to say is, if I'm wearin' spandex tights, then EVERYONE is wearin' spandex tights!

[rhino]

rhino strikes again!!!!!!

It's cool when I get to recycle some of my best material!

[j1b]

Detlef

No doubt - money is motivating a lot of the movement towards specific matches. Bianchi and The Masters are prime examples.

Area 2 is and always has been an interesting region. Obviously at one point in time I was part of Area 2. When I was active, and more of a contender at matches, Area 2 was an important match. No doubt about that - we (I say we being Rob, Kippi, Doug and I at the time) always went to Area 2 if we could. In terms of rank though - if Area 3 fell during the same weekend as Area 2 - we always went to Area 3. And to be honest - I don't believe it was money motivated - it was to find out how we were doing in relation to the rest of the nation.

I remember an Area 3 match where Brian, Todd, Doug K, TGO, Jerry, Merle, Matt, Travis and any other big name at the time was there. It was like shooting a freakin' nationals match. It was huge. Speaking only from my own perspective - I went to the match for the competition. It was in Missouri I think and there was no way I was going to pay for my trip to that match unless I won - and the odds weren't heavily in my favor. So I went to gauge things - and to know that a good placement there actually MEANT something.

Ironically I've won an area match - maybe two. I don't really know which one(s) (not Area 3 or Area 4). I think it was Area 1, possibly Area 2 - I honestly don't know. It was important to me at the time - but if I'd won either Area 3 or Area 4 I know I would know. I know that I placed 2nd at one Area 4 match - and finished one year in the top 16 w/ my limited gun trying to get a slot to nationals. I know the year when all the big names were at Area 3 I placed 3rd. I know this because at that time - the match was important to me.

All this to say I agree with you - but that there are other motivations that I think exist.

Hope all that made sense - feel like I'm just rambling now -

JB

[Madmark]

in 2 whole years in this great obsession(sport) I am seeing an alarming trend

Less and less new shooters.Why?.............................

I hear-tell IDPA is overwhelmed with new shooters (disclaimer),not to say ipsc competes for members, no, not my point.

What I see is an elitist attitude from several mid to higher handicapped shooters and Race gear intimidating an already nervous shooter.Course design sometimes being a little too racey.

"Who's the next victim?" "instead of whos the next shooter?"

It is an overriding attitude, (macho jock) a whole picture that embarrasses me to be a part of at times.

2 years now B lim and damn proud of it. I practice hard, but I have a place to practice and I don't have a wife and kids.

Others have different demands on their time and are not Bruce Jenner incarnate.

I got roped into VP of my local club and now i see the attitude "I paid my dues let them work now"(paste,set up tear down,etc)

ROs barking at shooters,etc.  There have been exceptions to this (a few)

Now I have seen great shooters like Armondo Valdez take extra time to calm, coach and teach beginners at the line (me being one)at local matches. He sets a great example I hope to follow forever,and everone needs to remember we were all slow and nervous in the beginning. Even Frank Garcia once told me "I was a D shooter at one time".

If everyone improves then the bar is raised higher for everyone, stronger "Ds" make stronger "Cs" all the way up to GM

We can't do it without members.

Am I wrong? Maybe I need a break.....

I don't know that I can stop this trend at my club, frankly I would rather drive 2 hours to shoot with other clubs.

ok ranting and venting time is over

AL B.

I have been shooting for a year now, and have invited someone to every match I have attended. Only 5 have accepted, and only 1 has returned with any regularity. If we all bring in at least 1 new shooter this year, (which may take up some of our time preparing them for their first match) our membership will double. If we can keep the few selfish, self centered, "superior" shooters from discouraging the newbies.

[a-44978]

whats "JB" stand for?

Is this starting to sound like the "should there be a pro class" topic

My point to this topic was the bad attitude i see lately in the mid to upper level class shooters who think they don't have to help because they are "GMs" "As" etc,example i got this from a ranking shooter in my club (in uspsa not my club)When asking the group as a whole for help.I got this reply "I'm just a shooter"

did i say anything ? no.I'm a puss i guess.

People like this will never have to think about making a living at this sport because they can't,why?

At least i hope not

As i said at the start of this i'm still wet behind my green ears,who am i to say anything.Just don't tell me to paste,set up ,set steel ,hurry up or anything else your not doing your d@#$%^ self

End of rant,time for meds and nappy time now