eerw Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Need so guidance as if one approach is better than the other... Want to build a short open-class race gun.. which would be better as far as reliability and performance.. use a 5" slide and cut it 1/2" to 3/4" ( commander length) or use a commander slide and shorten the frame rails and recoil spring tunnel/shoulder to get the slide travel. thanks...for any advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Bob Longrin of Brazos Custom had an excellent article in a recent front sight in which he elaborated on the short open gun, you might want to check that out. Just thought I'd let you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 There's good and bad....the short gun is fast, less flip, lighter...but (to me) more felt recoil. I'm not fond of a real "snappy" recoil....I start having flashbacks to my old 2 1/2" 686 and I start flinching! The opposites can be said about the "normal" length 1911. All I do is shorten the slide, and relieve the comp to take the spring plug for a 5" gun...thus a govt. recoil spring. A commander slide creates other issues, as you have so noted. If you haven't shot one, that's the best suggestion I have. Make sure you don't hate it. And then, if you like the gun you try, then you have a platform you can kind of copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKooi Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I've been using a short gun all season. Mine is set up with a commander slide and frame specs similar to what you describe. I have a 3 port hybrid with a short STI S1 comp. It is light and quick, yet very flat and I don't think it beats up the shooter. My primary concern is minimal dot movement and this gun provides me with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I have a poor imitation of a Brazos Sx (same comp and ports, cut-down 5" slide, but no other Bob-work) and my new Dawson Mini-Stroker. Both are snappy to draw and index and both have more recoil and blast than a full-size gun (you need anywhere up to another grain of powder to make Major too). The Dawson shoots softer, probably because it has more slide travel-- it's got an extra 0.30" travel over a standard 1911 somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 Thanks guys.. I like the shorter gun..I have a shortened gun now that I really like...I am experimenting with portholes in the barrel/slide and was looking at running a shorter slide.. I knew folks here had them shortened both ways and was seeking advice if they were working or not.. I have seen and shot the Dawson minigun with the extra stroke added..wish I could have torn the gun apart to see inside...but it was pretty nice...I can;t afford for Dave to build me one..so the search for knowledge. thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 How much is the Dawson Mini-Gun running? I think the Brazos ProSx is around $3300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 I priced it at about $3600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 On the Dawson build sheet, make sure you select "Minigun 3 - New Technology" option-- that's the one with the trick slide. It'll probably be over $4K if you don't get them a frame.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORCA Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I'm building a short open gun now. It's a cross between the SVI IMMI and the Dawson Stroker. It will have a long-wide dustcover, full profile slide, be cut down to commander length with the three sided profile of the IMMI. On the one Dawson gun I've seen I believe he just shortened the front of the rails of the gun on a mill to increase the stroke. He may have modified the slide but it would be much easier to machine the rails. I've got $1600 in mine, it's nice owning a small machine shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 wow!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Forgive the thread drift but... What is the justification for charging considerably more for a "mini-gun" concept (or equivalent Sx) over a standard "full-size" 5" gun? It can't cost that much to cut half of an inch off the front of the slide and barrel can it? In the alternative, it can't cost that much more to use a commander length slide, instead of a Government, even if you cut the frame rails back a little can it? What's the deal? Is it because they are the rage? I know about the IMM gun and it's higher price tag, which primarily comes from the unique barrel arrangement, titanium comp, and the extra machine work to assemble them. I guess once people become accustomed to paying over say ... $3000 for a race gun ... it becomes the standard price for all new guns. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 Personally I think 3k is a bit much and very hard to justify... fortunately I have great luck at being far below that figure...no problem on the thread drift.. what do people think about $2900 to $3600 for a open gun..seen some single stacks where people are asking 4k... if anyone has anymore info on ways to shorten guns, lengthen slide stroke..I appreciate the info.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I do know that the Dawson stroker setup isn't using a standard or commander slide-- it's something else that's cut down and milled on considerably-- the recoil guide rod system is custom and even longer than a 5" recoil system. As for the $4K, I don't know where that all goes, but I think Dawson made a total of 3 open guns the week he made mine. Figure in the parts cost, millwork, amortizing a slew of CNC machines and employing half a dozen plus people and there's not a ton of profit left. Dave compares it to the custom motorcycle business-- They make bikes but pay the rent by selling parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORCA Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Sorry EERW, I got so busy talking about what I was doing I forgot to answer your question. It is easier IMHO to make the rails of a standard length gun shorter, all you have to do is cut and radius the rails and use a commander slide. To cut a slide down you can cut most of it down with a band saw, if your brave and have brass pads in the saw, and use a large carbide end mill to mill the slide to final size (which would be trash or damn near when your done). I could see an additional $40- $50 to mill the rails off, $70-$80 to cut a slide down, $50-$60 to cut down a long/wide frame to the length of a commander slide, and $40-50 to match a cut down slide to a cut down frame. I guess you would be looking at around $300 to $350 for the addition work over a normal open gun on a stroker like design, but $100 for a rail cut and commander length slide. I feel like the price of guns is getting out of hand, and so is the lead times people quote. Six months for a gun!!! My limited STI I just finished has $1,100 in parts, took about a month to get the parts in,and two or three saturdays to build. The gun has a AET barrel, SVI triglide trigger parts, stainless steel safties and magwell, Koenig hammer, and I cut it to have a three sided profile like the IMMI as well. I have looked at several guns from top name smiths and companies and I know they are working on a time table but to me their tolerances are very loose. Yes I'm talking to people who think their $4000 dollar gun is as tight as a bank vault. I know I can take as mush time as I want to work on a gun, and I have access to better equipment than most smiths, but I expected better. From what I've noticed gun smiths aren't machinists and machinist aren't gunsmiths. (Rant Mode on) I'm tired of companies who think just because they are the first to put a old mechanical principal to use on a gun they invented it. SVI is the poster child of this, press fit ball bearings - been around forever, shrink fit parts (comp on IMMI) - been done a long time too, never mind that titanium doesn't thread worth a damn and its easier to drill and ream it to size. Don't get me started on the price of magazine base pads. What is these people's shop rates $100? Mark up 100%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 ORCA, you must not have cut down a 5" frame to a comm. lenght. There is a lot more than just cutting & radising the rails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old john Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 Stand back! I just ordered a open sti blaster from Virgil Tripp @ Tripp reasearch, ( Yes the T in STI) dressed out at half what some are quoting. This will be my second blaster from him and his first was perfect. You don't know if you don't ask! old john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORCA Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Benny, I assure you I milled the rails down for a local gunsmith to the length he specified, I assume you are refering to the lower part of the rails where the recoil plug would make contact needing to be machined as well. I consider that part of the rail. We are speaking of a 5" frame and commander slide here? My gun isn't finished yet, but I took a long/wide frame and full profile slide and milled them to match a commander length barrel. The gun has as much travel on its slide as a goverment length STI. I don't see how their could be any more to modifying the length than that. I didn't have to touch the rails. I did make a custom length recoil plug for it and turned down a guide rod to fit. Sorry for drift, not trying to flame name gunsmiths (thats why none were mentioned by name). As for me considering their tolerances loose picky people consider me picky, and I deal in tolerances most people would never see. If someone can get $4,000 for a gun and have a year long waiting list good for them. Hell, I was going to buy a SVI IMMI and have a matching limited SVI made by the factory till they ticked me off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 Old John, Virgil & me started makeing guns at STI together in 93. I built most of the guns that came out of there from 93/96. Virgil & myself are as close as 2 people can get. His cost & mine again is real close. For a full house race gun w/hardchrome it is $2600.00 on customer frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 12, 2003 Share Posted June 12, 2003 FET is what blows. If you get a full-house gun from a smith on their frame, your friends, the government get something like 11% of all 'complete' guns. Sucks when a $2600 gun suddenly becomes a $3000 gun. Moral: Bring your own frame. You'll save as much as it costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjanglin Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 Yep its best to provide your own frame to the smith-I dont charge 3000 to build an open gun -Ive got a lot of satisfied customers I can refer you to -been doing pistol work for about 35 years a lot of it was in the military. E-mail me and Ill shoot ya a deal on your specs. jim Anglin Sailors Custom Pistols 4760 n 17th st. omaha Ne 68110 402 451 0797 jjanglin@msn.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Scientist Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 eerw, If you want a s-i short gun I think Joey Hardy has some of the nicest ones around you might ask him for advise. He has done them in 38 and 9 and they seem to work very well. I have built several Glock short guns on 34 platforms using shortened slidesand 17 barrels . The main benifit to me is being able to start the comp closer to the chamber alowing the gasses to get to the comp faster. Have shot the short guns and find them a little snapier but very tolarable. Johnnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 I personally have, and use one of Joey Hardy's guns in 9mm. It's great! The shorter Commander length makes it very easy to handle, especially for a relatively new open shooter like myself. Another observation, is that the guns John (Mad Scientist) are building, are great too!. I've seen their evolution, as well as shot them, and they are VERY nice! He has done a lot of research to merge the best ideas from traditional open guns and Glocks. And Actually I like the way they look ! My vote is for Short(er) Open guns! Joey's for the S_I , and John's for the Glock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old john Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 Thanks Benny, Yea your price of mid 2000's sounds right. Seems you have a great reputation on building blasters. How can one find out more about your blasters. old john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORCA Posted June 17, 2003 Share Posted June 17, 2003 One point that has yet to be brought up, if the gun was built using a standard frame and a cut down slide and in the future if you decided a short gun wasn’t for you would still have a unmodified frame. If I were going to have a gun built I would ask the gunsmith who was doing the work what his preference was and decide from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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