xcount Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 We have a shooter in our area who, occasionally, will hose the last target in a stage with whatever number of rounds remain in his gun. Don't know why, just something he does now & then. And he'll be the first to grab a box of target patches and repair the target, so it's not like he's creating extra work for someone else. So let's say this fellow is warned not to do this by the RO. But he does it anyway. And the RO stops the shooter and DQ's him under rule US 10.4. Then the fellow says something to the effect of - there is no rule prohibiting taking multiple extra shots at a target; the RO can't (in effect) make up such a rule and then DQ a shooter for not following instructions. He claims an instruction from an RO has to be a "lawful" instruction or the requirement to follow the instruction is voided, similar to unlawful military commands. The private given the command by a NCO to beat the snot out of the captain's mother is not required to follow this command. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what say ye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 If no one is put at risk, I think it's ridiculous to even consider DQing someone for doing it. Offending the ROs sensibilities is not an actionable offense in my opinion. If there is some vague technicality an RO can use to hammer the shooter, it's more of an indictment of that RO's character than it is of the action described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 If it's a comstock course of fire, the shooter is within his rights to take as many make-up shots as he wishes. I can see this getting insane though on a 3 foot target that gets blown to shreds..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Even on virigina count stages he can shoot til the sun goes down, just give him the penalities. This could get crazy, but a dq is pretty far out there. Some people just don't take this game as serious as others but he pays his entry fee and gets his turn. Any body ever ask him NICELY not to do it this time, we're behind or what ever? Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Why do I suspect that this is not the real question, but a lead-in to another issue? Anyway, the responses you've been given so far to the particular question you asked are right on the money, however there are certain things which would otherwise be "lawful" but where 10.4 might be invoked. For example, let's say there's a 9 round short course and a competitor wants to fire one shot per hour, just to be a jerk. There's nothing in the rulebook to stop him taking all day to shoot 9 rounds, but there are many people who would consider this to be unsportsmanlike conduct. Yes, I know this example is "way out there", but I think you guys will get my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 When I RO...I like to make it a rule that nobody is allowed to shoot the stage faster than me. Good sports wouldn't out shoot the the guy working the match for them would they??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 When I RO...I like to make it a rule that nobody is allowed to shoot the stage faster than me. That's why I don't RO . . . no one will show up when they have to shoot slower than the guy they time with a calendar (c'est moi). And the hit factors get kinda small after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Getting back to the question . It seems like there is a personal conflict going on between ro and shottist, i have been on the recieving end of this once and it almost turned the club upside down. Staying with in reason the shottist has done nothing wrong except to be entertaining which is always nice and gets a few laughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Well, apart from the fact that I can't see any (IPSC) rules violation by the AM behaviour (a shooter could be unsatisfied with his/her shots, and then try to make up all As), I have a teammate of mine that should be DQed every two or three matches. Last weekend we were in the same squad, and he was "in the mood" for some entertaining: he started the match by saying "I bet Ii can shoot three shots to each paper target of this match, and still beat most of you on stage time!". He ended up doing almost what he did (some of us were beaten, some not), but it was real funny to have him "machinegunning" each target: we only had to lend him a couple of spare mags in long courses . Again, I can't recall any violation of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcount Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 No, Birthday Boy, (congratulations) no lead in to another issue. (Paranoid or just getting old?) A few of us were having a post match discussion yesterday and this topic came up. The shooter described does really exist and he does occasionally hose the last target. Nobody has yet stopped him, let alone DQed him, but we were wondering if the RO even can prohibit someone from taking many, many extra shots, for whatever reason. A hopothetical was also discussed regarding a stage in an upcoming large match. Let's say the stage is a modified Bill Drill - it is Fixed Time, 1.5 second limit, 6 shots. And let's say the shooter empties a full high cap magazine. Obviously, after shot number 12 his score has reached zero. He can neither worsen nor improve his score, yet he continues to shoot at the target. What does, what can, the RO do? Now, to make it real interesting, let's say the guy is not just hosing the target. Let's say his is very deliberately shooting along the B/C line and it becomes obvious that, for reasons known only to him, his intention is to cut the "head" off the target regardless of how many rounds or magazines it takes. Now, what does (or what can) the RO do? We theorized that, not knowing what else to do, the RO would stop the shooter. Then, having no safety issue involved, a re-shoot would be issued with the admonishment "don' do dat no more". I suspect this is one of those "how many, and whom, did you tick off with your little stunt" kind of things. What say ye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooter Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 The RO can bump into him, automatic reshoot. Do that a couple of times and the shooter will either run out of ammo or move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 How about intentional destruction of range equipment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Often, the blasting away at the last target trick is done to mask the percieved lack of shooting skill. It's an ego thing. The shooter thinks it is cool. They are after the respect of their shooting buddies. I don't think there is any need (certainly isn't a rule against hosing a traget) to get heavy-handed with them. Just let them know that it is more impressive to hit the targets than play "Hollywood". Our local range owner's son is just big enough to shoot (and shoots well). He has to pull the trigger with his middle finger...can't reach with his index finger. At the Buckeye Blast he muzzled-to-paper'ed a couple of the targets on the stage I was working. We had to stop and replace targets ...blown out A-zones and lost heads. He had fun...and as we were replacing targets...I asked him when the last time his dad kicked his butt for a stunt like that? I think he caught on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Flex, good for him. It sound like fun. If the targets are close enought to blow their heads of, why not do it? That is just piss poor stage design. We are supposed to have targets to shoot at, not punch with our pistol right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I am with Flex on this one. The last thing I would do is to encourage a junior shooter to be a smart ass, poor course design or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Hmmm. I guess none of you guys have seen the optional bayonet available for certain model STI guns. And no, I'm not kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 It was at Area 4 on their table. I think it was one of the reasons for the long distance targets-prevent anyone from shooting and stabbing a target at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billwright Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 AHH Yes, But was it a Major or minor Bayonet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 The RO can bump into him, automatic reshoot. Do that a couple of times and the shooter will either run out of ammo or move on. No. See 8.6.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 True there may be nothing against the rules, but the question that must be asked/considered is, is the person doing this being safe? If they are a consistently safe shooter that everyone feels comfortable with,,,,I don't know what you could really do about it. If it is someone that appears to be on the "ragged edge" of being under control,,,,,then I think it warrants talking to that person even if they technically aren't breaking rules....not a bitch session or anything, but a serious/sincere discussion. The first few matches I shot, I had a habit on close stuff of shooting one handed,,,,I went pretty slow,,,,well within what I was capable of, but certain situations would arise where I'd find myself shooting one-handed, till one of the guys pulled me aside and told me "you aren't breaking any rules, but you really need to stop shooting one handed,,,,it can get you in trouble............yada yada,,,explainations" I took that to heart, started watching how other guys approach shooting stages and learned the proper techniques associated with getting into the positions that were originally causing me to shoot one handed. I didn't get pissed, I took what he said to heart and I'm a much better/safer shooter for it. But another angle to consider, if you are sincere in talking to someone not berating them and are sincerely trying to help them become better and safer shooters and it pisses them off when multiple people are voicing a concern, then you have to question whether that is a person you want participating with you in a sport like ours where safety has to be the number one priority. Now, don't read what I said to be "get rid of guy X",,,,that's not the point. It sounds like an issue was raised and discussed by multiple shooters so it sounds like others may be concerned,,,,,just throwing out something to consider. H4444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Flex, good for him. It sound like fun. If the targets are close enought to blow their heads of, why not do it? That is just piss poor stage design. We are supposed to have targets to shoot at, not punch with our pistol right? L2S, I have been know to take full advantage of targets that are too close, but I don't think the stage I mentioned was poorly designed (no, it wasn't designed by me). The shooter had to go out of his way to muzzle-blast the targets. No biggie...it simply slowed the match down for the other shooters. (He is a good kid...just having fun...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted June 13, 2003 Share Posted June 13, 2003 The shooter had to go out of his way to muzzle-blast the targets. No biggie...it simply slowed the match down for the other shooters. (He is a good kid...just having fun...) He is a good kid and will be kicking ass in a couple more years (especially once his trigger finger can reach the trigger)!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billf Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 I have been to several matches lately, on the way home I felt short changed due to lack of shooting (low round count match). Maybe this fella just having withdrawals and just getting his fix. I say let him shoot all he wants, the only thing he is really hurting is his score. If the guy is haveing fun safely , who cares about a couple of cents worth of tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryRM 18 Posted June 14, 2003 Share Posted June 14, 2003 If you felt short changed on the round count, maybe the courses of fire were not challenging enough? With imagination, you can make a competitor work hard for a 9 round stage. Quantity does not always beat quality. As a Glock shooter, I usually put three at everything, but I just like pulling a trigger Oh for the military days, I was once involved in using 182,000 rounds (7.62) through 9 machine guns, in 1 hour and 20 minutes, now that was fun And the 50 cals. Dribble, where's my hanky? Have fun, Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted June 15, 2003 Share Posted June 15, 2003 I shot a 5 stage IDPA match once and only fired 24 rounds. Talk about feeling short changed.... If I'd have thought of it, I could have emptied a mag into the last target on each stage just to feel better. I see a couple of guys firing many extra shots in an outlaw match I shoot. Match results are how the classifications are figured, so they are seriously sandbagging. Last match I shot, we had a stage where we were teamed up in pairs according to classification(they used the "good old boy" system). I got stuck with an actual "D" shooter while these 2 sandbaggers were teamed together. They "forgot" to shoot extra shots in this match and easily won. All the better shooters were allowed to do in this stage to help (identical arrays, shot side by side) was shoot the worse shooters stop plate after they missed it at least 3 times. I actually lit a cigarette while waiting on my "partner" to eventually get to the stop plate and take forever to miss it the required number of times. I had a sub 5 second time, but the team time was over 60 seconds before they figured in this guy's misses. I was slightly pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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