Do You Always See the Dot?

[boz1911]

Dryfire has helped my presentation on the draw, however I can't say I draw perfectly every time. I also have been known to fire a shot to find "said" dot.

At this stage of my game I believe at 10-12 yards I would not fire without a reasonable sight picture.

And since I'm new to open also, I must revert to what another open shooter told me. He explained that "if" you fired a shot without the dot and "if" a noshoot is present on the stage, the bullet automatically finds the noshoot and penetrates.

[Flexmoney]

... but thought I took a lot of time finding the dot from draw. I guess on targets this close just point and shoot? Jake, could I get some info about this from you? I'm a "C" class and I did get all "A's" on it, so that's good.

Jake gave a great suggestion...dry-fire practice. The reason that is great is because...come match day...if your presentation needs work, it is too late to do anything about it.

The presentation needs to be such that you don't have to waste time having to look for the dot. The dot should already be there when you present. If it's not...you really need to work on that in practice.

That is a different issue than what you might need to see to take the actual shot...which is a different issue than what you might need to see to call the shot.

You don't want to have to go hunting and peaking around to have to find the dot. Your presentation ought to have it right there for you to see.

[wide45]

If the dot is not consistently there, just dry firing the same inconsistencies won't help.

Most likely your grip is inconsistent, particularly the weak hand. Work on getting the correct grip, and get it right every time.

[BSeevers]

See what you need to see to call the shot.

I see the dot or don't fire. Dry firing til you develop the skill to always index the dot on the aiming point is the way to go. Now at 3 yards its a type 1 or 2 focus and acceptable dot on target for me is that there is any red is there. I ran a stage with a 16+ HF at a club last month, three targets, 2 or 3 yards, 2 on each in something like 1.6X and I aimed or better yet called every shot.

I have found that aiming generally wins over using The Force or taking the time to "walk the hits in" YMMV, but I don't think it will.

Edited April 4, 2008 by BSeevers

[shred]

I asked Todd Jarrett about this once. He says he always sees the dot. Because.. tada.. he looks where he wants the bullets to go, and his index puts the dot between his eye and the target.

Max and KC who can smoke Smoke and Hope with 4 18"x24" targets at 7 & 9 yards, plus a 12" stop plate at 14 in under 2 seconds flat off a surrender draw see red on each of them.

[Ron Ankeny]

Because.. tada.. he looks where he wants the bullets to go, and his index puts the dot between his eye and the target.

That's kind of how I thought shooting a dot is supposed to work. Look at the target and the dot appears superimposed on the target. I have read about "scoping" the target, i.e., just seeing brown in the C'More, usually done at spitting distance. I think I first saw that in Matt Burkett's Training Manual. But no dot at 10 yards...isn't that pushing the envelope a bit?

I must confess, I have torched shots off without the dot while shooting weak hand only at very close yardage. I only did it because I wanted to get moving and I couldn't find the flipping dot. Yeah, I know...dry fire.

[XRe]

Because.. tada.. he looks where he wants the bullets to go, and his index puts the dot between his eye and the target.

That's kind of how I thought shooting a dot is supposed to work. Look at the target and the dot appears superimposed on the target.

That's generally how it works out. Even on super-warp close stuff, I still tend to pick up the dot flashing around in there, but its not the primary part of my sight picture or shot calling, its just a side effect of a good index.

But no dot at 10 yards...isn't that pushing the envelope a bit?

Yeah, that's a bit ... risky ... I think...

[warpspeed]

i voted yes. Unless it is a point blank first shot, I see / look for the dot.

[Ron Ankeny]

... I still tend to pick up the dot flashing around in there, but its not the primary part of my sight picture or shot calling, its just a side effect of a good index.

Dave:

I shoot a lot of "bootleg" reactive steel matches. You know, gardens of poppers every where you look. I can relate to what you are saying. I see splashes or flashes of red on as I mow the garden. I too think of the dot as a side effect of the index, but sometimes I wonder where visual patience fits into the equation. I mean, when I miss a popper or a plate, it's usually trigger control, but sometimes I slap the flipping trigger without seeing the red, and the result is not only a miss, it's uncalled a miss, I'll move on and then I need to come back.

Maybe I have it backwards and seeing the dot is the primary part of the equation, and presenting the gun with the dot in the scope (or sights aligned) is what builds the index? I don't know. Just thinking outloud.

[HSMITH]

I asked Todd Jarrett about this once. He says he always sees the dot. Because.. tada.. he looks where he wants the bullets to go, and his index puts the dot between his eye and the target.

Max and KC who can smoke Smoke and Hope with 4 18"x24" targets at 7 & 9 yards, plus a 12" stop plate at 14 in under 2 seconds flat off a surrender draw see red on each of them.

That was my point.

[Fireant]

... but thought I took a lot of time finding the dot from draw. I guess on targets this close just point and shoot? Jake, could I get some info about this from you? I'm a "C" class and I did get all "A's" on it, so that's good.

Jake gave a great suggestion...dry-fire practice. The reason that is great is because...come match day...if your presentation needs work, it is too late to do anything about it.

The presentation needs to be such that you don't have to waste time having to look for the dot. The dot should already be there when you present. If it's not...you really need to work on that in practice.

That is a different issue than what you might need to see to take the actual shot...which is a different issue than what you might need to see to call the shot.

You don't want to have to go hunting and peaking around to have to find the dot. Your presentation ought to have it right there for you to see.

This is so true. When I first switched to open, I didn't do any dryfire first. I spent the whole match doing the dot hunt thing. I then spent the next month dryfiring every night just working on presentation. Not so much speed as having the dot be right there on the draw. I think now that on close/easy targets I do see the dot, but I don't realize it at the time. After the stage I can recall having seen the dot, but I didn't concentrate on it. It was just there. I guess I saw what I need to see to make the shot. Now, I seem to only screw it up majorly on a virginia count stage. I don't know why but I'll let them fly in a heartbeat on those stages even when the dot isn't there.

[9x21]

5 yards or closer, I may not need to pick up the dot to fire and call an accurate shot, depending on the targets. But, 10-12 yards needs it, for sure. I'm there every time, or I'm pulling makeups ...

+1

Inside of 5 yards it is hard not to notice the huge holes appearing on the targets and you can get away without seeing the dot. Beyond that distance you are wasting time looking for holes unless you are willing to drop a lot of points or even a miss. YMMV

What he said. close in , use the "force"

[Bubber]

dajarrel, As Alamoshooter has indicated it is in your head, or at least posiitoning. When I start a stage I find it advantageous to turn my head to the right slightly so that my left eye will be positioned directly be hind the dot. I see the dot on the first shot and then I am aware of the dot as I fire, but probably don't "see" the dot until the last shot, at the close range targets anyway. Clear as Mud?.. later rdd

[K45]

I shot an open gun with the red dot optics for the first time last weekend, one afternoon after a match was over. I shot in closer quarters than usual in a house stage and did REALLY well. I went VERY fast compared to how fast I generally move with a SS 1911 and got all Alpha/Bravo hits the first time through. I even surprised myself!

Anyway, I went so fast, I can't even remember if I was actually seeing the dot, instinct shooting or just hoping the shots were going in the right place! It seemed like I did take me a little bit longer/more time to take the further away targets though, I may have been trying to "find" the dot then, but I'm not sure. I just kept trying to remember some advice someone gave me, "trust your eyes, trust your eyes!".

After that first attempt, the 2nd and 3rd times I tried to go through the stage again I couldn't go as fast and I didn't get the shots that I did on the first attempt. I guess I wasn't anticipating anything on the first try, and on the ones afterwards I tried too hard and it kind of fell apart!?

[LadyinBlue]

DJ I am left eye right hand too, I am not tooo slow on the first shot though. = the key is head movement. Get your head in place and keep it calm and Present the gun to the eye.

When you make ready = set your head in place and holster the gun { With Out moving your head} - put your hands in the start position and draw the gun to your eye and the target. Use your off eye too when you get the hang of it.

Do the closed eye drill too = point the gun in dry fire close your eyes - open them and see if the gun is still pointed correct. If not practice from the the feet up to make it rite.

Oh & =Moving through doors and such keep from (Ducking) your head to the gun = Keep the head level, like a dancer. and in don't bob you head up and down.

Being a left eye right hand shooter also, I am quite interested in your practice drill. I think I've already been doing some of it but seeing it all spelled out sure helps. Thanks.

BTW, I learned the hard way not to shoot without a dot. I could kick myself for all those unecessary misses. DUH!

The red dot is your friend...don't shoot without him.

[Focus]

I had to check no as sometimes I bobble the grab but I shoot enough that I know at what range I can get away with what grip presentation. I don't do it very often but once in a while I do because of weird start positions or cold hands when it's 40 and below... I have shot 2/3 of a 50 round stage with no dot (forgot to turn it on at "make ready") and didn't have ONE miss, they were 5-10 yards and I was shotting as fast as I could pull the trigger. So it all comes with time, you will know when you hit and when you miss, I'm conscious of the dot I just don't have extreme focus on it.