Gun Selection for Production USPSA

[Mark K]

This is just for my own edification. I shoot Limited, but after Area 6 I think I will shoot a few matches in Production Class to get Classifed for the fun of it. When I do, I will most likely shoot my Hi-Cap Para 9mm because the weight, and my grip will be about the same as the SV. However, I may shoot a Taurus 24/7 that I have.

But I have noticed in matches, and in the reporting of the Nationals, etc that Glock seems to have a numerical advantage. Why so? Is it the availability of internal "Race Parts" for the Glock vs the XP, M&P, Para, etc? I know short of changing sights that there is NOTHING for the Taurus (which I love the feel of). The accuracy of one vs the other is negligable. There are top sponsored and unsponsored shooters using all of them.

Or is it just that a lot of shooters that start out as defensive shooters with a Glock, and then start shooting IDPA/USPSA/

Just wondering others thoughts.

Please lets not make this a Rah, Rah, my gun is better than yours silly thread.

Thanks,

Mark

[the duck of death]

The G 34 is accurate, reliable and it's easy to get a 2lb trigger pull. My last G34 open gun has a no take up 2lb trigger---the cost------ZERO. I used all OEM parts.

[Ramas]

Because Glocks are reliable, accurate, you don't need to clean them after each match, cheap parts and you don't need a gunsmith to install

[AikiDale]

I think this may be the answer

[racerba]

Parts and accessories are also in abundant.

[Micah]

You can buy every part in a Glock inexpensively, and replace any part at the range in a matter of moments. That, and Glocks have been around for a while and have been proven.

[AustinMike]

They shoot well (assuming they fit your hands).

Simple mechanism that is easy for most people to work with (i.e. no professional gunsmithing needed.)

Parts are cheap and abundant.

Mags are still probably the least expensive out there.

Lots of sight options.

Factory rebuilds and police trade-ins can be had for $350ish (although the rebuilt 9mm guns are a little hard to find at the moment.)

[Flexmoney]

From reports, the Para LDA had a bit of a long trigger reset...that some don't care for. It has a fairly square mag opening that isn't the best for hitting reloads (no mag well allowed in Production division).

The Glock is just...proven. It is pretty tough, pretty reliable, pretty accurate...and just shoots nicely. It's a good fit for a number of people. It's popular because it works for people...and has done so for years and years. And, being so popular, things are readily available for it.

The XD was one of the first viable alternatives to the Glock. Some don't like the grip angle of the Glocks...especially if they come from a 1911 background. The Xd gave them a grip angle that they could be comfortable with. There are a couple of gunsmiths out there that can give them fantastic triggers (Production legal). They have a bit of a heavy slide for the low power gamer rounds that our shooter like to use...which limits how light a recoil spring can be used in them. There has been much frustration with the lack of availability of parts for them (from the factory). I don't know if that has changed (anybody?).

The M&P seems to be getting popular. It directly addresses some of the gripes that folks have about the Glock (grip size, beaver-tail, ambi controls). Glock might be paying the price for standing still for so many years. The M&P's are cheap, and seem to be trying to saturate the market a bit. If they prove to be reliable in the long-term...

Many of the other guns lose out a bit because of having a true double-action first shot. But the CZ's are still strong and popular. CZ-USA backs the sport and pays attention. CZ is very strong internationally, it seems.

I have a number of shooting buddies (on this forum too) that started out with the Beretta. These shooters have went on to be top competitors in the sport. But, most have moved on to different platforms for one reason or another.

Many of the other guns are a bit expensive, or perhaps obscure. Likely decent platforms that fit a number of people, but for some reason, they just don't catch on.

[Carlos]

Flex summed it up nicely.

Will add that almost any "75" should work well no matter who makes it (including the newest 75 - Armalite's "AR-24"). I own & shoot 75s from IMI/Tanfoglio, ITM-Solothurn, and even CZ.

Going into 2008, I would not count out the soon-to-be-introduced STI "GP-6" or "Grand Power" - since if any company understands USPSA, its STI.

Greater brand competition in Production means we ALL win.

[Punkin Chunker]

Glock.

Must not be assimilated.

Resistance . . . is . . . futile.

Getting weaker . . .

The collective . . . calling . . .

Argh!

I've had a Model 1 G17 for ages.

Love it. Did the .25 trigger job, put in a drop-in set-up.

It's reliable, easy to work on, goes "bang" every time and is more accurate than I deserve.

If I wasn't so old-school, I'd stick with the plastic, but I loves my 1911, too.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Punkin Chunker

[mpolans]

I'm cheap. I can buy all the internal parts in a Glock for the price of a decent aftermarket 1911 hammer. I don't need to spend the extra $50 lefty tax for an ambi safety. They're easy to work on. Triggers still aren't as good as a 1911, and the grip isn't quite as nice, but at less than half the price, I'm not complaining.

[Jman]

From Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Value:

.....a fair return or equivalent in goods, services, or money for something exchanged....

or in my words, a friggin' great bang for the buck...

Jim M

[EricW]

Everyone starting out in USPSA should start with a Glock, XD, or M&P. Just pick one. You can't go wrong. All are accurate and reliable. All are highly marketable should you ever change your mind. All have custom parts readily available. There is no shortage of people who wrench on them.

Pick one. Sling 10K worth of lead downrange. By then you'll whether you're happy where you are, or you'll have a great idea of where you want to go.

The Glock 17/22 and 34/35 are far and away the most popular guns in the shooting world, literally by a factor of 5 to 1. If you can't mike up your mind, just follow the herd. They can't all be wrong.

FWIW...

[Shay1911]

Although I am a CZ fan and shooter...

First rule of shooting well is a gun that goes bang every time and Glocks do that. I don't think they are the best at anything, except being reliable.

Watch out and don't change too many parts, or you wont have a Glock or reliability any more.

[Rik]

I'm cheap. I can buy all the internal parts in a Glock for the price of a decent aftermarket 1911 hammer. I don't need to spend the extra $50 lefty tax for an ambi safety. They're easy to work on. Triggers still aren't as good as a 1911, and the grip isn't quite as nice, but at less than half the price, I'm not complaining.

Pretty much says it all. Glock, not my favorite, but still the one I'm shooting. Just call me a cheap SOB.

Rik

[RIIID]

Since Glock has twenty plus years on most of the current guns for Production, I would be shocked if they didn't have the lead right now. In five years I bet Glock will have lost a big chunk of the market now that there is a handful of viable polymer guns to choose from. My choice is easy XD.

Rich

[Patrick Sweeney]

RIIID, you put your finger on it. Glock had a 10-15-20 year head start, and was aggressive in getting market share. As a result, when a newbie walks into a gun shop, he/she sees it in terms of "Glock" and "Glock copy."

Little wonder then, Glocks are in big numbers in Production.

[mpolans]

Since Glock has twenty plus years on most of the current guns for Production, I would be shocked if they didn't have the lead right now. In five years I bet Glock will have lost a big chunk of the market now that there is a handful of viable polymer guns to choose from. My choice is easy XD.

Rich

Actually, on the age thing, I think the CZ-75 has Glock beat.

[Duane Thomas]

Okay, I'm not buying that. SIG had a 30 year headstart, granted they were handicapped for awhile by a much higher price than the Glock, and haven't marketed as aggressively. The Beretta 92 has been around that long, as well; had the cachet of being a military service pistol; the Lethal Weapon movies; and was marketed heavily by Beretta after the military adoption. The basic Smith & Wesson 39 design has been around since the 1940s, the 59 since the 1970s, and they've both been marketed hard by Smith. If longevity and/or marketing were the deciding factors, SIGs, Beretta 92s and the Smith 39/59 pattern would trounce the Glock in popularity.

Reasons for Glock 9mm popularity (in no particular order):

(1) In the overall scheme of things, it's not a terribly expensive gun.

(2) Extreme reliability, especially remarkable when it's so dirty other guns would choke. I'm coming up on 13K through my latest Glock 17, I have yet to clean it even once, and it's never malfed. In the near future I'll probably break down and clean it, because I'm beginning to feel hideously guilty about that, but I don't really need to, reliability-wise.

(3) The guns are a lot more accurate than many people give them credit for. The G17 in particular I think has gotten a bad rap from certain gunwriters. This causes some people a serious mental block. Because they believe the guns aren't that accurate, they can't shoot them particularly accurately. And that simply isn't true. I have yet to fire the one-hole five-shot group my ego demands with my G17 or G34 (at 50 feet, the maximum distance possible at the indoor range on which I do the vast majority of my shooting) but I've shot numerous sub-1"ers, several of those with four rounds into one hole and a single flier a tiny bit away from the main group.

(4) A great size-to-weight ratio.

(5) A great magazine capacity-to-size-to-weight ratio.

(6) The easiest auto pistol on the planet to detail strip, as least as far as I know. The only gun I can think of that's even in the same class is the Makarov, and even there the Glock is a bit easier.

(7) The Glock is a modular gun. Modifying it is mostly just a matter of replacing drop-in parts with other drop-in parts.

(8) Add together #s (6) and (7), what you get is a gun with a HUGE number of aftermarket parts that the owner who's willing to put in the minor bit of work necessary to lean how to detail strip and reassemble the piece can actually use themselves with...

(9) ....no need for a pistolsmith's attentions.

(10) Short, light, consistent trigger pulls, out-of-the-box.

(11) Doing a trigger job is so simple that anyone with average hand-eye coordination and mechanical skills can do their own trigger work with absolutely minimum chance of screwing things up.

(12) They're very "soft" guns in the sense there are really no sharp edges on the piece to cut up your hands while manipulating it fast, or firing a lot of rounds in a single session. I've cut myself on just about every auto pistol type out there except Glocks. 1911s by contrast are a mass of sharp edges and angles. I even cut myself on my SIG P228 once, and SIGs are the only other pistol type I can think of that's even in the Glock's league in this area.

[kframe_mike]

I think Flex and Duane are right on the money.I've been a long time Glock "disliker",but had a chance recently to pick up a LNIB 3rd gen G22 for a song.Yes,the infamous KB'ing drastic plastic.My only dislike about it so far is the fact that I didn't pick one of these up years ago!So far I'm shooting it as well or better than my beloved CZs,and damn is it ever easy to work on.

[Mark K]

Thank you all for the education.

Mark

[EricW]

I predict that there will be a major market share shift as well. You'll really start seeing the swell turn into a wave over the next 12 to 24 months. The angst is there.

Why is Glock overwhelmingly in the lead?

- Because of things they did

- Because of things that others *did not* do

Others were there first, but majorly screwed themselves and their customers. Glock filled the void with reliable pistols and unbeatable pricing. In some cases, agencies turned in their guns and got Glocks for free because the trade in value on a used <whatever got traded in> was greater than the LE price on a new Glock.

We all rest on our laurels. We all have our comeuppances. And so the cycle shall repeat itself.

[Coolduckboy]

I think this may be the answer

freakin awesome. that is why my other gun is blued, not nickle plated

[Chuck Anderson]

Glock makes the perfect intro to USPSA gun. They are more than accurate enough, reliable, easy to learn and manipulate and cheap to purchase. Magazines are inexpensive, everybody under the son makes aftermarket parts and accessories for them and they are easy for anybody to work on. Also in a divsion with no minimum trigger pull having a gun with a 2 pound trigger on every shot is nicer than having a gun with a 6 pound trigger then a bunch of 2 pound trigger pulls.

Glock did have a lead on everyone else, when production division started. Glock was the leader in LE sales, by a lot. Sig, Beretta, Smith and Wesson (were they even making semi-autos in the 1999?) all had issues, big grips, DA triggers that were ridiculously heavy expensive mags, or something else that let Glock move in and kick butt. Now with the introduction of factory racing teams (again) and custom shops, some of those issues are going away. Also everyone is jumping on the polymer bandwagon.

CZ was the first company to solve the DA issue on a big scale with the CZ-USA custom shop offering custom SP-01's from the company. This is a big deal. Who really wants to spend $100.00 with UPS to ship their gun back and forth to a gunsmith for a $100.00 trigger job. It also helped that CZ has a strong factory shooting team. Oh yeah, and a world champion in 2005.

My money is on Glock losing market share over the next 2 years in USPSA. CZ will gain, Smith will gain, Springfield might gain. Glock really hasn't changed much over the last several years. Other than the FGR grips, and some minor internal stuff. The biggest change has been in the calibers we don't use in Production, right now .45. Glock, while they're a great company is a little less than receptive to outside suggestions. Can you imagine how well a Sevigny Series 34 would sell? All the work done to Dave's specifications. Dave doesn't do that much to his production guns but the little does would be great to have done by the factory.

[spd522]

Cheap, easy to work on, lots of aftermarket drop in parts, sufficiently accurate and with quality ammo and a solid grip-reliable.

In spite of the less than ergonomic grip shape, weird trigger, and poor takedown design, they are right in enough areas to

make them a simple choice.

I have owned a few and still have a G17. Not for competition, not for CCW, and not for duty when I was LE (Glocks had lots of initial issues

but that's another story). And I don't shoot them that well because of the grip shape. Mostly I keep the G17 because it is

lightweight, holds a lot of BBs, and I carry it when ATV riding where it may get scratched, banged around, wet, and dirty. It's the red-headed

stepchild in my gunsafe. It's kind of the same reason guys toss an SKS or beater rifle behind the truck seat.

My Production and SSP pistol has always been a SIG P226 9mm. It was also my LE Duty gun so I prefered shooting what

my life (and others) may have to depend on. I no longer shoot IDPA but my new Production gun is a SIG X5 All Around.

Sweeeeeet.