FFL Requirement when selling Private Citizen to Private Citizen?

[CDRODA396]

I did a search and read 4 pages of info on shipping handguns and who will/wont, but didnt find the answer to this....

I am thinking of posting a gun for sale and I see on here the statement "$XXX shipped to your FFL." The question is, as the seller, do you need a signed copy of the buyers FFL before shipping? I know when I bought a gun on Gunbroker.com, I had to get a signed copy and send it to the seller who then shipped to that FFL, just wondering if as a private seller do I need one, and if so, once the gun is sold, what do I do with the copy?

Thanks in advance,

PH

[Chris Keen]

YES. You may ship a gun to an FFL only (except for factory repairs) and it helps to cover your a-- if you request a signed copy of the FFL paperwork. I typically send it back with the gun, when I ship it.

[dajarrel]

My understanding is that if you ship it, by whatever means, except for factory repairs, you need a FFL.

The only time you wouldn't need one is for a private citizen to private citizen face to face transaction.

FWIW

dj

[Wildman]

NO! Unless you are a dealer, or state law requires, you are not getting a copy of our FFL. You can legally ship for repairs or transfer to an FFL holder under Federal law. If you choose to have an FFL holder ship the gun, the dealers will exchange licenses. GunBroker has a clause about the seller getting a copy of FFL’s, but we will not send one except to another dealer. Funny things happen with licenses floating around, even when marked “File Copy”, and clearly a copy.

Had a gun trace once were the gun was shown received by us from a basement dealer. No record of the gun, and no license on file. No out for the gun. Turns out under audit, this guy had a handfull of other shop licenses, from one customer, but did a face to face handover of several guns with no 4473. None of the other shops had his FFL. Complete fraud.

Last year, of 3000 transfers, 10% were non-4473. If you have a question of the dealers standing or viability, go to ATF and use EZ-CHECK.

And if you want to make it easy on the receiving FFL, include a clear copy of your state ID.

[XRe]

And if you want to make it easy on the receiving FFL, include a clear copy of your state ID.

Why would I want to do that, if you won't reciprocate? Various bad things can be done with copies of drivers licenses or other forms of ID. If you can't trust me with yours, I can't trust you with mine.

Stories abound of UPS refusing to ship without clear proof that you are shipping to a dealer, so this puts the seller in a bind. I've not run into this issue, yet, myself, luckily.

[Flatland Shooter]

The only time you wouldn't need one is for a private citizen to private citizen face to face transaction.

FFL not necessary on face to face transaction with residents of same state. You cannot do a face to face handgun transfer to someone who is not a resident of your state.

Bill

[Chills1994]

(just jumping in here to throw some more confusion into the mix)

A Face-to-Face transfer in your home state can be kinda sketchey too. Best case scenario is that the buyer of your pistola is also from within your home state.

Some states have a caveat to their gun laws that you can do a FTF on just long guns with a person from an adjacent state.

IIRC, any handgun transactions between you and a person residing in another state even if it is an adjacent state have to go through an FFL and generate a form 4473.

If you do a google search for "ATF + FAQ", I think that will clear up some of the OP's confusion.

Of course, some dealers are just anal retentive and as a CYA maneuver will require that the gun be shipped from an FFL.

(drift off)

[lynn jones]

i thought you could ship a firearm to yourself. is this correct?

lynn

[Cactustactical]

I did a search and read 4 pages of info on shipping handguns and who will/wont, but didnt find the answer to this....

I am thinking of posting a gun for sale and I see on here the statement "$XXX shipped to your FFL." The question is, as the seller, do you need a signed copy of the buyers FFL before shipping? I know when I bought a gun on Gunbroker.com, I had to get a signed copy and send it to the seller who then shipped to that FFL, just wondering if as a private seller do I need one, and if so, once the gun is sold, what do I do with the copy?

Thanks in advance,

PH

If we are asked to do a transfer to an out of state FFL by a non license holder, we ask for the FFL's address and / or fax number and request that their license be sent to us. A copy of our license is included with the shipment for that dealers use. We do not provide a copy of our license to non license holders. There are simply too many cases of dirt bags getting a license and changing the name, address and passing it off as theirs. Of, course, FFL EZ Check stops that, but some are not web savvy.

[CDRODA396]

So......for me the private citizen, selling a handgun that I advertised on here, to another private citizen, in any state but mine (I am clear on the requirement here in NC FTF)....

a ) have to ship to an FFL and must have to have a copy of the receiving FFL

b ) have to ship to an FFL and should, but arent required to ask for a copy of the FFL I am shipping to

c ) dont have to have copy and just "assume" that the address that I was provided with is an FFL?

d ) are not required to ship to an FFL

e ) all of the above

f ) none of the above

In fact, as a non-FFL myself, do I have to have the gun shipped by an FFL?

I am more comfused that before?

Edited March 14, 2008 by CDRODA396

[Cactustactical]

So......for me the private citizen, selling a handgun that I advertised on here, to another private citizen, in any state but mine (I am clear on the requirement here in NC FTF)....

a ) have to ship to an FFL and must have to have a copy of the receiving FFL

b ) have to ship to an FFL and should, but arent required to ask for a copy of the FFL I am shipping to

c ) dont have to have copy and just "assume" that the address that I was provided with is an FFL?

d ) are not required to ship to an FFL

e ) all of the above

f ) none of the above

In fact, as a non-FFL myself, do I have to have the gun shipped by an FFL?

I am more comfused that before?

Clear as mud, isn't it?

You are legally (unless your state / local laws prevent) able to ship directly to an FFL in the buyers state. Many FFL's refuse to accept that shipment unless it comes from an FFL in your home state due to fear of the ATF and for liability reasons. In that case, you need to go thru a FFL in your home state for a dealer to dealer transfer.

When you find a buyer, the onus is usually on them to provide receiving FFL info. Once you have that, if they refuse to accept a direct transfer,you will have to go through a dealer in your home state ( as said above).

[firematt100]

So......for me the private citizen, selling a handgun that I advertised on here, to another private citizen, in any state but mine (I am clear on the requirement here in NC FTF)....

a ) have to ship to an FFL and must have to have a copy of the receiving FFL

b ) have to ship to an FFL and should, but arent required to ask for a copy of the FFL I am shipping to

c ) dont have to have copy and just "assume" that the address that I was provided with is an FFL?

d ) are not required to ship to an FFL

e ) all of the above

f ) none of the above

In fact, as a non-FFL myself, do I have to have the gun shipped by an FFL?

I am more confused that before?

As a new basement FFL holder I wish I knew all the answers also. When the ATF came out they weren't all that clear.

1) You can do face to face instate only, just be sure of your state laws and the required paperwork.

2) you can ship to an FFL direct if that state allows it. I am not sure of all the state laws but I have been told in the past that a particular state required that it come from a FFL. Not sure if it is true?

3) Fed Ex and UPS will ship firearms but they must be dropped off at the main hub. No strip mall shipping shops. Also, you must declare that it is a Firearm. About 50/50 if they check the box and ask for the receivers FFL info. They don't know all their own rules either. They must go overnight and it is costly depending on how far away it is going.

4) I will give a copy of my FFL to a Dealer only. It was to hard to get to chance someone messing with it.

5) For your protection yourself I would use a FFL on both ends, let us exchange info and you have no worries. There are far to many horror stories about things going wrong and this way you are protected. You still handle all the money and let them do the paperwork. You should pay 25.00-50.00 on your end.

6) Also, if your state has a sales tax and your seller didn't collect it your receiving FFL is supposed to, at least in Michigan.

Hope this helps a little

[CDRODA396]

Clear as mud, isn't it?

Yes!!!

You are legally (unless your state / local laws prevent) able to ship directly to an FFL in the buyers state. Many FFL's refuse to accept that shipment unless it comes from an FFL in your home state due to fear of the ATF and for liability reasons. In that case, you need to go thru a FFL in your home state for a dealer to dealer transfer.

When you find a buyer, the onus is usually on them to provide receiving FFL info. Once you have that, if they refuse to accept a direct transfer,you will have to go through a dealer in your home state ( as said above).

So, if I'm tracking best thing to do is once a buyer makes an offer I contact that FFL and and have a nice chat with them to keep both of us happy.

Thanks for all the replies, I knew it would not necessarily be a yes/no answer.

[CDRODA396]

6) Also, if your state has a sales tax and your seller didn't collect it your receiving FFL is supposed to, at least in Michigan.

What!!! Now just who came up with that bright idea! ...just kidding, I fully support all Government Agencies in collecting their due...no, really!!!

[JFlowers]

And if you do a FTF in NC, require a pistol purchase permit from the buyer unless you know them personally. Not "required" as much as CYA. At one time they were trying to make even FTF have to take place under the control of an FFL in NC, but if it passed it is definately a very ignored law.

[blkbrd]

If the FFL/gunshop I am shipping to for transfer wont supply me with a fax or copy of the FFL, the transfer wont happen. This is based on talking with the ATF. How do you know it really is an FFL you are shipping to?

As a private citizen you don't have to ship FFL to FFL, you can verify and ship direct to an FFL.

Face to face is based on the state, and the type of firearm. Note an Open gun or Limited gun can be called an assault pistol in some states.

The FFL does not collect sales tax on transfers. Thats a scam some dealers run, check for yourself.

[boo radley]

It's hatefully complicated. I've sold a few on gunbroker, here, etc., and in my experience few transactions are identical, but....

1) If you sell to an out-of-state resident, you must ship to his or her's FFL. Now. His or her FFL may or may not want to give you a copy of their license. So the flow chart becomes:

<[Yes] copy of FFL License, either by mail or Fax> ---> validate with EZ-Check on BATF website ----> send FedEx priority overnight from a depot to the FFL. I have *not* given my copy back, but instead stapled it to the Fedex receipt and filed it. I want *proof* I sent it to an FFL if this ever comes back.

<[No] FFL won't give you a copy for whatever reason> ----> go to your local gunstore/FFL holder. Pay a transfer fee, and the FFL will send the gun directly to the other FFL, usually by priority USPS mail. They also might not be really quick about this, so that's why it behooves the buyer to try to get you a copy of their FFL.

2) If you sell to an in-state resident, you can do a face-to-face transfer, but they must provide either a valid pistol permit (which you retain) or a valid CCW license. I have never heard of that "unless you know them personally" clause, JFlowers cites, above. I'm thinking you do NOT want to sell a gun to someone who hasn't furnished proof they can legally own one.

It can be a minor to major pain in the ass, no doubt, and Firemat100 is dead-on with 1/2 the time, FedEx, etc, won't know the rules.

(minor edit).

Edited March 14, 2008 by boo radley

[firematt100]

The FFL does not collect sales tax on transfers. Thats a scam some dealers run, check for yourself.

After doing some checking I believe you are right. I checked with the State Department of Treasury and they say no. Looks like I was one who was scammed in the past.

"sales tax does not need to be paid for a transfer of goods between two private individuals." MDT

[ima45dv8]

2) If you sell to an in-state resident, you can do a face-to-face transfer, but they must provide either a valid pistol permit (which you retain) or a valid CCW license. I have never heard of that "unless you know them personally" clause, JFlowers cites, above. I'm thinking you do NOT want to sell a gun to someone who hasn't furnished proof they can legally own one.

It's important to note that the requirements for FTF in-state transfers vary from state to state. For example, in GA, all I have to do is ascertain that the purchaser is a legal resident of our state. A quick glance at their drivers license is all that is needed.

[mpolans]

Find out the real deal here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

As a private citizen, I have confirmed a recipient's FFL status and address by asking him the information necessary to fill this out: https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck

Once I've done that, I would ONLY ship to the address listed by FFL eZCheck...NO alternative addresses.

DISCLAIMER: Entertainment purposes only, go hire a competent lawyer licensed to practice where you are for the specifics.

[CDRODA396]

Find out the real deal here: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

As a private citizen, I have confirmed a recipient's FFL status and address by asking him the information necessary to fill this out: https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck

Once I've done that, I would ONLY ship to the address listed by FFL eZCheck...NO alternative addresses.

Thanks, that sounds reasonable and easy enough!

DISCLAIMER: Entertainment purposes only, go hire a competent lawyer licensed to practice where you are for the specifics.

DISCLAIMER: Entertainment purposes only. Unfortunately after extensive research, I found that I couldnt find one of these! (Oh, come on, its just a joke!!!)

[warpspeed]

Some states have some different rules. Like CA for example. ALL transactions must go through a FFL. Rifles, shotguns, pistols. ALL

[Coolduckboy]

166.470 Limitations and conditions for sales of firearms. (1) Unless relief has been granted under ORS 166.274, 18 U.S.C. 925© or the expunction laws of this state or an equivalent law of another jurisdiction, a person may not intentionally sell, deliver or otherwise transfer any firearm when the transferor knows or reasonably should know that the recipient:

(a) Is under 18 years of age;

( Has been convicted of a felony or found guilty, except for insanity under ORS 161.295, of a felony;

© Has any outstanding felony warrants for arrest;

(d) Is free on any form of pretrial release for a felony;

(e) Was committed to the Department of Human Services under ORS 426.130;

(f) After January 1, 1990, was found to be mentally ill and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness; or

(g) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor involving violence or found guilty, except for insanity under ORS 161.295, of a misdemeanor involving violence within the previous four years. As used in this paragraph, “misdemeanor involving violence” means a misdemeanor described in ORS 163.160, 163.187, 163.190, 163.195 or 166.155 (1)(.

(2) A person may not sell, deliver or otherwise transfer any firearm that the person knows or reasonably should know is stolen.

(3) Subsection (1)(a) of this section does not prohibit:

(a) The parent or guardian, or another person with the consent of the parent or guardian, of a minor from transferring to the minor a firearm, other than a handgun; or

( The temporary transfer of any firearm to a minor for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose.

(4) Violation of this section is a Class A misdemeanor. [Amended by 1989 c.839 §3; 1991 c.67 §40; 1993 c.735 §11; 2001 c.828

Now, Would I, at the age of 19, Be able to buy a hand gun from my Grandfather?

[Brazos SC Shooter]

I currently had to deal with this situation when attempting to get a gun from a fellow BE'er.

Some places here in Ohio will only accept transfers from other dealers (Gander Mountain) by company policy.

Others will accept transfers from individuals but will not provide copies of their FFL certificates. I was also told by one dealer that FedEx and UPS keep records of FFLs and when you drop one off at the hub, they can verify if the address belongs to an FFL.

Regardless it is a pain in the ass. In the end we had to go to use an FFL on both ends which added some additional expense for the gun.

[Rob Boudrie]

Another curiosity - if you have a single valid FFL number you can go to the ATF web site and download the complete list of FFLS (excluding 03 C&Rs). One of the systems I manage does this every day at about 2AM. It's kind of interesting running queries looking for "walmart" to see just how many of their stores sell guns and ammo.