What is causing these smiley faces?

[Bill J]

Hi,

This is my first post but I've been shooting 1911's for the last 20 years or more. Lately a friend of mine and I have really started getting serious about our shooting. We've shot a couple of plate matches, a USPSA match and this weekend we're going to shoot in an action pistol match.

I had been shooting my HK mark 23 and my Kimber compact but decided it was time to dig out my McCormick Factory Racer for the last plate match. Now this is a gun that has never jammed, not even once in thousands of rounds and in the plate match I had to nickname it the jamomatic. I was completely let down. When I got home I cleaned it and looked for the source of the jamming. I finally decided that my recoil spring was worn out so I ordered another and installed it last Friday before the USPSA match. Well as you can imagine that didn't solve my problem I had 5 jams during the first stage. I switched guns and shot the rest of the match.

When I got home I now knew the source of my problem wasn't the spring or being dirty. I removed the firing pin and started running rounds through it and found that when it jammed it would leave "smiley faces" on the loaded cases. Can anybody tell me what is causing this? I also had a few jams with my other gun and had the same smiley face leading me to believe it's my ammo.

My brass is new Starline and I'm shooting 200 LSWC over 4.6 grains of bullseye with Federal primers and an AOL of 1.25" Here is a pic that shows what I'm trying to explain.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

Bill

[SLM]

Have you ever fed the gun SWC's before?

Edit: Oh, and welcome to the forum!!

Edited March 5, 2008 by SLM

[Merlin Orr]

Where is the smiley face on the round when it jams..? Is the round hitting the top of the chamber and the smiley caused by the break over when the round goes over and into the barrell?

Shot in the dark. Your extracter is bent and/or too tight and the rim on the new brass won't slid under it causing the jamb. Have you shot new Starline brass before without this problem?

[shooting4fun]

Howdy Bill J, and et al.,

Welcome to the forum. This has been a pretty helpful place to find and share information. While I'm not sure of the exact cause of your jams, the marks appear to be from a breakover impingement as the cartridge is trying to get straightened out enough to go into the chamber. The smile or dimple is formed when the slide is pushing the cartridge forward and it is not clearing enough to gracefully align into the chamber.

In the past when I was dealing with Semi-wad-cutters < SWCs > there was not much joy until I found a reference by an older gent who reloaded his ammo for years. The point that he shared was that with SWCs you really can't measure based on the overall cartridge case length since the nose portions on the various versions were so different. He found that the bullet shoulder length right at the case mouth was a more significant measurement.

By setting that little shoulder from 0.018” to 0.020” beyond the case mouth, that was the measurement that provided the optimal break over length to feed into the chamber for the SWCs. Cartridges loaded outside (shorter or longer) that window just didn't seem to work well. So I gave it a whirl and had great results in several platforms 1911s and Glocks. Now your mileage may vary but at least you've got options to consider at this point. Hope this is of some assistance.

Good Luck!

Cheers!

[wide45]

I think he's got the length about right.

[Merlin Orr]

I think he's got the length about right.

I agree. "The width of a thumbnail..."

[DougCarden]

Your bullets are seated too deep. you need about a quarter's thickness at least sitting out in front of the case mouth. The crease is from the round popping up and hitting the hood. Been there, done that with SWC......You need a little more length to make the transition into the chamber easier.

Good Luck,

DougC

[Bill J]

Thanks for the replies guy, you are correct the source of the "smiley' is when the round is trying to break over. I'll load some rounds tomorrow that are a bit longer, about as far out as I can seat them is 1.27 anything longer and I have trouble getting the loaded rounds to eject.

Bill

[SLM]

I think it might have our own HSMITH that once posted that the best way to set the seating depth of a SWC is to take a factory ball round and put it in the seater die. Run the plug down to that length and lock it. Then seat the SWC's wherever that length comes out. Something to the effect of the gun not caring what the bullet shape is, it's more dependent on where the bullet contacts.

I could have my source wrong but I know lengthening my SWC loads helped.

[J-Ho]

Maybe they are satan's bullets and they are smiling because they are evil.

I would try seating different depths, see if your gun likes it one way or the other. I had a similar problem. My bullets were too deep. I did groups of ten. I would decrease the seating depth a little each group of ten. Since I found the load I haven't had a FTF with that pistola in many, many moons.

[revchuck]

Bill - First, welcome to the Forum!

Unless you've a gazillion of those bullets, I consider switching to a round nose version. It might be one of those things where that bullet design just isn't compatible with your gun...and those HKs ain't cheap, either. Most of us have gone back to the traditional 230 grain RNLs for the reliability factor, and have no problems with accuracy. My M&P .45 has been eating the 215 grain LSWCs designed for pins with no problem, but that's a different gun and a different bullet, and when they're gone I've got a couple of .50 cal ammo cans full of RNLs.

Hope you can get those SWCs to work!

[Dan Sierpina]

How much taper crimp on the mouth? The case mouth diameter should be .468-.469. That's using a taper crimp die.

[Chills1994]

Do you have a case gage?

I'd try that first.

What are these lead SWC's actually measuring diameter wise?

.451" ?

.452" ?

.453" ?

.454 "?

If you took the slide off and then tried to insert a loaded round or just a case from underneath, passing under the extractor's hook, how well does the case or round stay stuck to the breech face, with the slide held in a variety of different positions?

Change your mag springs lately?

What weight recoil spring did you go with?

Oh... I'm just rambling now... throwing out alternatives you could try.

I could be wrong and Your Mileage May Vary (YMMV).

[Chris Keen]

You guys keep talking about the bullet, but I tend to agree with Merlin .... I think your extractor is bent or too tight.

[trodrig]

I'd check the extractor tension as well. Also, check to make sure the extractor isn't "clocking". In other words, when the extractor is installed, make sure you can't rotate it at all in the slide. You might need to fit a new firing pin stop to eliminate this if present. At least, that's what fixed mine!

Good luck!

Trodrig

[Chills1994]

Chris Keen wrote:

You guys keep talking about the bullet, but I tend to agree with Merlin .... I think your extractor is bent or too tight.

I swore a Hypocratic oath of gunsmithing/tinkering that goes like this:

First, do no harm... Second, give the gun a thorough, foot in the stirrups style cleaning. Third, oil it up. Lastly, malfunctions shall be trouble-shot in the hierarchy of cheapest/least hassle way first:

1. Shooter (check for excessive operator headspace! LOL!)

2. Ammo

3. Mags

4. Gun

Yes, I was tempted to mention the extractor in my first post in this thread. Yes, it could be clocking. It could have a burr on it. The extractor hole in the slide could be so gunked up with crap that it ain't holding the round against the breechface the way it should.

Or it could be that fancy schmancy brand new virgin Starline brass, could, theoretically have a thicker rim and is not sliding up under the extractor's hook. See #2 above.

This thread is a lot like asking 12 different carpenters how to hang a door. You're gonna get 25 different responses. LOL!

Edited March 5, 2008 by Chills1994

[Chris Keen]

This thread is a lot like asking 12 different carpenters how to hang a door. You're gonna get 25 different responses. LOL!

What does that mean ...... measure once - cut twice ?

[Chills1994]

(drift on, since you asked, yeah, I know, kinda sarcastically)

1. Take door out of jamb, Hang jamb separately

2. Keep door in jamb, plumb hinge side first and shoot nails through casing

3. Check floor for level. Temporarily set door and jamb in rough opening level head jamb by shimming "legs". Take jamb

and door out of opening. Cut long leg down. Reinstall jamb and door...

4. Slap door and jamb in casing and rack both back and forth in the RO til you get an even reveal. Once margin looks

good, shoot nails through casing. Insert the other half of the jamb into the RO and jamb slot. Nail her up. Open door.

Ahhh!! Frick! Door rubs on carpet. Tap hinge pins out of hinges. Set door on a pair of saw horses. Take

circular saw and cut a half inch off bottom of door. Ahh $hit!! Why did it splinter like that? Off to Home

Depot for a new door! What do you mean I have to have a chisel to cut hinge gains. Huh? Well, that's not how Norm

does it.

5. Install new door in the old jamb. What? The hole for the springey latchey thing for the door knob doesn't line up with

the mortise in the jamb? Morris? No I said mortise. It's like a shallow area for that brass-ey colored thing with the

hole in it that the springey latchey thing from the door knob hits. Yeah, that's called a "strike latch". Yeah, it's

supposed to look like it grew there. Ya know, not proud, not deep either. Just flush. Flush? What you're talking

plumbing now, huh?

I coud go on....

(drift off)

[dajarrel]

Bill - First, welcome to the Forum!

Unless you've a gazillion of those bullets, I consider switching to a round nose version. It might be one of those things where that bullet design just isn't compatible with your gun...and those HKs ain't cheap, either. Most of us have gone back to the traditional 230 grain RNLs for the reliability factor, and have no problems with accuracy. My M&P .45 has been eating the 215 grain LSWCs designed for pins with no problem, but that's a different gun and a different bullet, and when they're gone I've got a couple of .50 cal ammo cans full of RNLs.

Hope you can get those SWCs to work!

I'm with Chuck on this one. I've never had anything but problems with SWC. There are numerous things that have been described above to cure the ailment. IMHO, the best cure is a round nosed or truncated cone bullet. Barring mechanical problems such as the extractor, every feeding problem with SWC's was cured with a change in bullet profile.

FWIW

dj

OTOH, if you have thousands of them or just like a challenge, you can probably, eventually get the gun to run with them....but your next gun may not

[Chills1994]

Bill J wrote up top, to kick this whole thread off:

dig out my McCormick Factory Racer for the last plate match. Now this is a gun that has never jammed, not even once in thousands of rounds and in the plate match I had to nickname it the jamomatic.

First off, I have never heard of a McCormick Factory Racer, so this thread is useless without pics.

Second, I'll gladly give you $199 for it.

LOL!

Somebody's gotta beat Merlin's 200 dollar 1911 record, right?

[degenerate023]

heheheh if you cant beat em join em...my charles daly efs will not feed any swc's....my gunsmith ripped out the couple of remaining strands of hair he had left trying to get it to eat em.....i tried masterblasters, precision, bear creek, and oregon trails...would smiley on all of em....my kimber on the other hand ate em all....so i started loading 230rn and both love em...go figure

[Bill J]

I've tried a few things this evening to see if I could eliminate the problem. I removed the extractor and functioned the gun, didn't make any difference. What really seemed to make a difference was changing the length to 1.26, I also added more crimp as was suggested, at this length I had no smilies Thanks for the input I won't know if it made a difference until I'm at the range this weekend.

Some wanted to see what a McCormick Factory Racer looks like so here it is:

I bought this gun about 19 years ago and have used it on many endeavors and it's never let me down until recently. It's a Colt Commander that I was told was a combo between Colt and McCormick to produce it. They made 500 of and the serial number range from MFC001-MFC500. I've never seen another one like it for sale in my travels either.

Bill

Edited March 6, 2008 by Bill J

[Johann the Horrible]

I have no hair left, I pulled them all trying to make my .45 feed SWC. Since I started with 230 RN she runs and runs. Only stoppages I had since then was when I made my rounds to short. I dont think the disciple John Moses Browning had SWC`s in mind when he made designed the perfect pistol.

[Jeff686]

I ran laser cast SWC in my 45 for a couple of years, no problems. Once I had the dies adjust, I left them alone. Little did I know how lucky I was.

One day, I couldn't get laser cast, so I bought another brand. No Joy. FTF

One day, I decided to switch to plated, so I bought some ranier SWC. No Joy. FTF

I think I tried three different lead and two different plated SWC, I played with seating depth and crimp. Never worked.

I went back to laser cast and couldn't get them to work either, until I carefully measured an old round and matched the dimensions exactly.

Now, I shoot RN...

[indyshooter]

i fought wad cutters for quite awhile. i like the big holes with my old eyes. i have an L-10 gun and now a single stack in.45 acp. i got the smiley face on the projectile, but the cause may be the same. the change i made on both guns, and they run great is the barrel link. i went one size shorter. this allows the barrel to lay on the frame a little longer before the bushing starts it up into battery. you may have to go shorter yet with where the crease on yours is . also, i run my aol at 1.270". polish the frame and barrel ramps. anything you can do to get the square edge into the chamber before the barrel lifts off the frame will help.