Law Enforcement Tactical 3 Gun

[sbmd]

Hello to All,

I just wanted to give you guys a heads up on what is coming. I am leaving law enforcement to work for the NRA in the LE Activities Division as the Program Administrator for Tactical Police Competitions.

Basically it will be 3 gun for LE using their duty gear. It is a hybrid of USPSA and IDPA. Rules remain fairly simple with two divisions, tactical iron and tactical optic.

We will be looking for clubs to host matches throuout the United States. We invision holding 8 regional matches in various parts of the US and then conclude with the Nationals.

Stay tuned for more to come on this topic. We have our first match scheduled for 15 March in Greenville, TX.

You can contact me via the Enos Forum and once I get settled into the office I will provide my contact information.

Take care,

Larry Houck

TPC

[Carlos]

Hello to All,

I just wanted to give you guys a heads up on what is coming. I am leaving law enforcement to work for the NRA in the LE Activities Division as the Program Administrator for Tactical Police Competitions.

Basically it will be 3 gun for LE using their duty gear. It is a hybrid of USPSA and IDPA. Rules remain fairly simple with two divisions, tactical iron and tactical optic.

We will be looking for clubs to host matches throuout the United States. We invision holding 8 regional matches in various parts of the US and then conclude with the Nationals.

Stay tuned for more to come on this topic. We have our first match scheduled for 15 March in Greenville, TX.

You can contact me via the Enos Forum and once I get settled into the office I will provide my contact information.

Take care,

Larry Houck

TPC

Congrats Larry! Sounds like you are moving up and I think you deserve it because we all know you have worked hard over the years, first volunteering to head the Juniors program and also representing H&K.

Quick Q: will these law enforcement tactical 3gun shoots be open to regular civilians / USPSA members? Sounds great and I know we would all like to give it a try.

Thanks again for your support of the sport Larry,

D.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Carlos

[Bill Sahlberg]

Larry,

LE needs this type of training badly. I am the Marketing Director at MGM Targets, let me know what I can do to help you pull off these matches.

Bill Sahlberg

MGM Targets

Marketing Director

208-989-7511

bills@mgmtargets.com

[jobob]

Larry,

LE needs this type of training badly. I am the Marketing Director at MGM Targets, let me know what I can do to help you pull off these matches.

Bill Sahlberg

MGM Targets

Marketing Director

208-989-7511

bills@mgmtargets.com

Bill, when did you get that gig? Sweet!

[norbs007]

That's great news!

[sbmd]

These matches can be open the regular civilians.....if you work as match staff and shoot with the staff. As for the overall match, civilians will not be eligable for the regular paticipant prizes however I plan to offer some prizes to the match staff for their hard work. You can not have a match without match staff. On a marketing note...those who help as match staff have an opportunity to recruit new members of clubs as well as offer them an opportunity to participate in either USPSA or IDPA matches as your local clubs. Everyone benefits that way.

Man I am excited about this opportunity!!!

Larry

[itento]

Larry what great timing. Our club is hosting an FBI Firearms Instructor course this week and I was going to give a pitch on how USPSA/IDPA 3 Gun type competition can be useful in improving the firearms skills within their departments. We currently hold about five 3-Gun/Multigun USPSA matches a year and are in the process of running an IDPA 3-gun match quarterly. So far, LE participation has been very low but I'm trying to change that in SE Alabama, W. Georgia, and Flordia Panhandle. I'd be very interested in participating in your program. Keep us informed.

[kurtm]

What are you guys providing to the clubs who host such an event? Ie course design, scoring staff, targets etc. KURTM

[Wakal]

Hey, I'm military...that could be fun

What are the equipment rules?

Alex

[piper]

These matches can be open the regular civilians, B**LS**T, (only as second class citizens), the NRA does not allow civilians to shoot humaniod targets, hence the tombstones at Bianchi. So a civilian will never be allowed to shoot in the same match as LE.

After all the NRA is a Politically Correct shooting org.

Civilians can run the match, indeed the matches probably will not happen, if civilians don't do most of the work.

Heaven forbid that at a match aimed at LE, a civilian, could and would place well, as far as LE,I have seen bad ones and I've seen some really good ones, JUST LIKE civilians.

If they, meaning any LE and NRA rep's, want to come shoot any other match USPSA or IDPA I'm sure they will be welcomed to participate and expected to help.

To run a series of matches and ask a group of people to supply the manpower to run them, but be told that you are not good enough to participate is just wrong.

If some how you let us regular folk, shoot the match, the same match, for the same awards, scored together, ( Give LE thier own awards,) I'll help in any way I can , set up, ROing, tear down. If not, good luck.

I heard that the NRA LE matches were being talked about, last year, and we were informed then that civilians would not be allowed, so some friends and I have been talking about it for a year , to bad the NRA is not willing to allow civilans to shoot thier matches, but they do want our money and help.

Sorry for the rant, to have a national org , that I support, exclude me, is irritating.

[Blockhead]

I had a chance to visit with some of my old friends from the Linea de Fuego club (San Diego, CA) this last weekend. They said they will be running one of these NRA sponsored LE matches at the Pala range in late May. Sounds like they're getting a lot of sign-ups with both individual and team competition formats. More info. is available at http://www.sandiegoshooters.com/ . Another cool aspect of this match is that the proceeds will go to the Wounded Marines Semper Fi Fund.

This concept has some great potential!

[sbmd]

These matches can be open the regular civilians, B**LS**T, (only as second class citizens), the NRA does not allow civilians to shoot humaniod targets, hence the tombstones at Bianchi. So a civilian will never be allowed to shoot in the same match as LE.

After all the NRA is a Politically Correct shooting org.

Civilians can run the match, indeed the matches probably will not happen, if civilians don't do most of the work.

Heaven forbid that at a match aimed at LE, a civilian, could and would place well, as far as LE,I have seen bad ones and I've seen some really good ones, JUST LIKE civilians.

If they, meaning any LE and NRA rep's, want to come shoot any other match USPSA or IDPA I'm sure they will be welcomed to participate and expected to help.

To run a series of matches and ask a group of people to supply the manpower to run them, but be told that you are not good enough to participate is just wrong.

If some how you let us regular folk, shoot the match, the same match, for the same awards, scored together, ( Give LE thier own awards,) I'll help in any way I can , set up, ROing, tear down. If not, good luck.

I heard that the NRA LE matches were being talked about, last year, and we were informed then that civilians would not be allowed, so some friends and I have been talking about it for a year , to bad the NRA is not willing to allow civilans to shoot thier matches, but they do want our money and help.

Sorry for the rant, to have a national org , that I support, exclude me, is irritating.

Piper....I am sorry you feel this way. Understand that I am coming into this with rules, content and program already set in place. This had to be done in order to hire someone into the position. For the record all three people involved with the program from here on out all shoot USPSA, IDPA, PPC, 3 gun and anything else you can toss a bullet toward a target. One is a retired police officer and the other two (me included) have LE backgrounds. I understand your frustration however we must start somewhere. As an LE I constantly jump up and down at my guys to get out there and shoot. Keep in mind they carry a gun for a living and some of them consider it a part of the job and want nothing to do with it on their off time, is that bad, well that decision is up to whoever is holding that gun. I personnaly do not follow that rational of thinking.

Now what can I change, not much for this year as we have 4 matches already planned. For 2009, that is a different story. Funny the question you ask about civilians shooting the matches, was the very first one I asked as I see the potential that the civilian world can assist LE in many aspects. Sometimes in the LE community, they do not want people knowing about them kinda like a secret society. I hope that we can open the matches up so LE and civilian can shoot side by side.

Now once we have the rules out there, could your local club shoot one of these matches and allow civilians to paticipate. I see no reason why not. We want these matches at the grass root level...think of it as a great training ground for the local LE personnel. What you do at a local level is all up to you. We are just going to seeking clubs to host regional matches much like area matches in USPSA and then we will have a nationals to crown a LE champion.

As far as help, the NRA TPC plans to send 3 people from national HQ to assist with the match. This is no different than USPSA when it comes to the nationals. We plan to arrive to assist with setting up and would ask to have help in that area. We will have targets, pasters and necessary items sent in so the local clubs would not be out of pocket. Again no different than an area or nationals event, we just need to use the props that you have on the ground or maybe make one or two while we are there.

Everyone please keep in mind this program is less than 3 months old and the sky is the limit. I must however keep things in perspective when it comes to budget, planning and quality. If you have any concerns or questions please feel free to contact me at azone40@comcast.net or cell 571-237-0991.

Great things are coming I promise you. I started the Summer Blast 8 years ago with 126 shooters, it has now grown to the largest Level III Tournament on the east coast with 320 registered already and the match is 5 months away.

Failure is not an option!

Larry Houck

TPC Administrator

[Merlin Orr]

While I know many LE and call them friends.....and, for the most part respect and even admire the LE segment - that obeys the US Constitution and honor the laws they have sworn to uphold......

I am having a hard time finding something in Piper's post to disagree with.

With that said - If a match does come to my home range I will be there for whatever help I can provide.

[Brian Payne]

I put on some 3-gun shoots for my department and other local LEO's. We always have a good turn out and have a great time. We sometimes even learn new things. For some reason these same LEO's refuse to go with me to "real" 3-gun shoots. I try to have courses of fire, rules, range commands, scoring, etc.. that are the same as our actual shoots, but I still can't get my guys to the actual competitions. I really don't know why.

I am not saying that this is right, but I do think you will see a lot more LEO's going to the LEO only competition shoots, than you will ever see participate in the "normal" shoots. This includes any normal shoots that have a seperate Law Enforcement Division. For some reason the officer's are just not willing to attend that kind of shoot. They seem to be more comfortable shooting only with other LEO's. This is a real shame because based on the people I have met at the shoots, "shooters" are the best of the best when it comes to groups of people.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

... For some reason these same LEO's refuse to go with me to "real" 3-gun shoots. I try to have courses of fire, rules, range commands, scoring, etc.. that are the same as our actual shoots, but I still can't get my guys to the actual competitions. I really don't know why.

I've had this same discussion with some of my LEO shooting buddies over the years. The LEOs take on it: Most civilians think of LEOs as "firearms experts" because they carry a gun on a daily basis. Many officers really enjoy and take comfort in this status and are afraid to jeopardize it by competing against "regular civilians" who just might have the knowledge and skills to whip them in competition.

[Middle Man]

... For some reason these same LEO's refuse to go with me to "real" 3-gun shoots. I try to have courses of fire, rules, range commands, scoring, etc.. that are the same as our actual shoots, but I still can't get my guys to the actual competitions. I really don't know why.

I've had this same discussion with some of my LEO shooting buddies over the years. The LEOs take on it: Most civilians think of LEOs as "firearms experts" because they carry a gun on a daily basis. Many officers really enjoy and take comfort in this status and are afraid to jeopardize it by competing against "regular civilians" who just might have the knowledge and skills to whip them in competition.

That's similar to my impression of the situation. AND many LEO's just aren't gun people...

[shootingchef]

... For some reason these same LEO's refuse to go with me to "real" 3-gun shoots. I try to have courses of fire, rules, range commands, scoring, etc.. that are the same as our actual shoots, but I still can't get my guys to the actual competitions. I really don't know why.

I've had this same discussion with some of my LEO shooting buddies over the years. The LEOs take on it: Most civilians think of LEOs as "firearms experts" because they carry a gun on a daily basis. Many officers really enjoy and take comfort in this status and are afraid to jeopardize it by competing against "regular civilians" who just might have the knowledge and skills to whip them in competition.

This was put about at as PC as I have ever seen it. I too shoot with LEOs and we all agree, Some LEO's just can't handle not being the "Top Dog". Those who get past this bias go on to be great competitors and probably better LEO's.

[Brian Payne]

I also think that part of the problem is that as an officer, our entire career is based on the "Held to a Higher Standard" rule. Everything in our life (on duty or off) is this way. If an officer is caught doing drugs, abusing his wife, drunk driving, etc.. it makes the news and is on everyones lips for days. If that same person were a car mechanic, no one other than immediate family and friends would every know about it. (nothing against car mechanics, just using an example)

Now this same officer, who is under the impression that all civilians think he/she is a shooting expert, goes out in public and is shown to be a poor shooter, it tends to tarnish the image both about what he/she thinks about themselves as well as what other shooters might think of them. Not many officers I can think of would like for people to look at them and say "you suck" when it comes to shooting, so they think it is easier to just avoid the chance of that happening.

I was lucky, I didn't really care what anyone thought about me or my shooting. I learned right away that this was a very enjoyable way to increase my shooting ability, with the added bonus that the people are great. Hopefully with this sort of competition getting started, enough civilian volunteers can be a shining light. The RO's these officers get to shoot with and become friends with, will open doors for more officers to come out and play with the civilian population. It could be a win-win situation for everyone involved.

Edited March 5, 2008 by Sgt

[Smoky Bear]

Where can we find more info on the match coming up?

[TRUBL]

Don't worry Sgt.......you are correct, we don't think you are an expert shooter. See ya Saturday!!!

[benny hill]

Tim, that was COLD,COLD to say to brian, after all anyone that wears PINK better be a good shot.

[sbmd]

Hi Benny Hill......looking forward to shooting another 3 gun with you, learned so much by watching you, still can't figure out how you reload that dang shotgun so fast.

As for the upcoming match. It will be held in Greenville, TX on March 15. You can contact Tiffany King at 703-267-1621 to get registered and any additional information about the match from the registration stand point.

Once this match is out of the way, I will try to get information up on the NRA web site under the Law Enforceemnt Activities Division. Like I said earlier, I have some work to do.

Just to touch on some of the comments, everyone is right. LE is taught from day one that you have to win the fight, be faster, stronger and quicker than your adversary, it is engrained into the recruit on a daily basis and we never download it. Looking and reading this seems to be my view on why more LE does not shoot along side of our civilian counterparts....if they did, they could learn allot!

Larry

[Mike P]

O.K. can someone explain to me why police are not "civilians"? Does a Fireman rate the same level of distinction? The Game Warden? Prison Guards? How about other state, county, or municipal employees? Is the lady selling tags a civilian?

When did the police stop being civilians?

If the NRA wants to sponsor police only competitions thats great. Good luck with it.

Mike

[Topmaul]

Hey I am active duty US Coast Guard and would be interested in Tactical Optic

[shootingchef]

It's a distinction just like being a fireman or a nurse. Given a certian specialty, there is an assumption of expertise. When that assumption is proven wrong, tends to make the group and that person, look bad.

I can use myself as an example, I am a chef. I have trained and worked for many years at being a chef, and when my expertise is called into question, it makes me FEEL bad and I want to go back into my oven and blow out the pilot light.NOT!!!!!!

Instead I look into what happened and how I can make myself better for the experience. But, it took me a long time to get to a place where I am not sweating someone elses skillset in the kitchen challenging mine.