How many can call their shots?

[Flexmoney]

There is a lot going on after that instant...starting with lock-time...

I'm suggesting getting interested in what you are seeing after that moment.

[el pres]

There is a lot going on after that instant...starting with lock-time...

I'm suggesting getting interested in what you are seeing after that moment.

And thats the hardest part! I can see my sight aling, track, and return, but that instant it lifts-off is

mostly missing. It comes and goes mostly when I'm not trying to see it. Its just not something I can

conciously stare at. It just happens suddenly while shooting and then just as quickly fades. Its almost as

if you have to look at something else to see it ?? The other day I started to see my bullets traveling to the

target in a sort of periferal vision just as I ran out of practice ammo... For me, at my level, too much

intrest in seeing the lift prevents me from seeing it. Lack of control over the skill.

[Radical Precision Designs]

There are a few useful drills and accessories that can be used to help you "see what you need to see" in order to consistently call your shots/spots, so you know where the bullet went because you put it there. And to know you didn't put it there by accident. Of course complete knowledge of where your gun is shooting is a must, along with motor synchronization with your shot cadence and timing.

Keep in mind that your sight can not lift until the bullet has more or less arrived at its destination. This indicates where your bullet went because you lead it there,

One little mental drill is to bounce a small ball and follow it in its bouncing pad. The drill here is to move your eyes ahead of its expected path and mentally calculate the spot it will hit and bounce from before it gets there until you can correctly forecast where the next bounce will occur. Now find a stairway and have somebody roll/bounce the same small ball from the top as you do the same drill as it "climb/bounces" downwards. The point where the bounce starts should match your "called" spot. Or it will be after some visual practice. While you have no control over the speed or direction of bounce, you will develop a definite "feel" for it to forecast its path and behaviour after awhile. You will learn a lot from "passive" observation/seeing to help you know where it is going and where it has been without really dwelling on it given some time at it. Kind of like driving a car, which is akin to "driving" a gun. Of course, by the time you transfer this visual training from the "passive" looking at the ball's landing/bouncing spot to the "active" driving your gun/target through its firing sequence/cycling you will be better "seeing what you need to see" to call/get your shots where you want them.

Yep, when that front sight start to lift ... if it is not where you wanted it to be ... its too late.

[wide45]

The other day I started to see my bullets traveling to the

target in a sort of periferal vision just as I ran out of practice ammo...

That is a fun thing to see, but I think it's a sign that you are looking to the target.

It's as simple as that. If you don't see the sights lift, you stopped looking at them, assuming that you ever did the sights.

[el pres]

The other day I started to see my bullets traveling to the

target in a sort of periferal vision just as I ran out of practice ammo...

That is a fun thing to see, but I think it's a sign that you are looking to the target.

It's as simple as that. If you don't see the sights lift, you stopped looking at them, assuming that you ever did the sights.

No, thats what I meant by periferal, I could see them out the side when shooting downwards at a backstop..

[benos]

I can't remember his name right now, but years ago I read a lengthy interview with the god of Benchrest Competition. It was mostly about equipment, as I'm sure that's what most Benchrest shooters are chiefly concerned with. At the end of the article they finally asked him what he felt it was that kept him always on top. He's like the TGO of Benchrest - if he's at the match you're probably shooting for second. You know what he said? In essence, he said the ability to call each shot with exacting precision was the most important thing. I got the chills right now just remembering how I felt when I read that. He knew.

If precisely calling each shot is the most important skill in Benchrest shooting - where everything is anchored in place and you can shooting into 1/4 moa without even looking through the scope when the shot fires - how much more important must it be to call your shots when the sights are continuously flying all over the place?!

be

[Brazos Custom]

What I see is basically a mental picture of where the front sight was at the instant I pull the trigger and the shot is fired. I don't see the sight lift.

I got caught up in this for a while - I was calling the shot where the sights were when my brain told my finger to pull the trigger. This leaves an amazing amount of time for the sights to move before the bullet leaves the barrel and for the bullet to hit a completely different spot from where you called it. I finally got to the point where I was calling the shot based on where the sights/dot were when they first lift. You don't have to see them lift you just have to make note of the spot on the target that they were when they first disappear. The biggest benefit is now I can also tell if I am jerking the trigger based on what the dot does while I am waiting for it to lift and I can call shots even if I jerk the trigger based on where the dot tails off from.

[ap3]

I was reading an excellent thread in this same section (I want to be speedy-part 3). Is is a discussion about how points are so impotant relative to hit factor and generally a mathmatical discussion of "shoot all A's as fast as in can". If you truly internalize "shoot all A's as fast as you can", then it is a short hop to know how critical it is to be able to "call all shots as fast as you can"

As we all understand an in your face targets requires much less shot calling precision then a 15yard, 25 yard, etc target, so i wonder when we talk about shot calling is it really a discussion of shot calling relative to the distant we are shooting. My shot calling problems in a match are not at 3 yard or 20 yard targets. It is those pesky 15 yard targets.

As far as seeing the sight lift I am about half and half seeing the sight actually lift versus having a mental picture of where it was. The speed at which I am shooting is a factor in seeing actual lift versus mental pictire. My current goal is to see the sight lift on 15 yard targets at match speed.

[Flexmoney]

Some nice observations in this post. Let me speak a bit on the highlighted portion.

I was reading an excellent thread in this same section (I want to be speedy-part 3). Is is a discussion about how points are so impotant relative to hit factor and generally a mathmatical discussion of "shoot all A's as fast as in can". If you truly internalize "shoot all A's as fast as you can", then it is a short hop to know how critical it is to be able to "call all shots as fast as you can"

As we all understand an in your face targets requires much less shot calling precision then a 15yard, 25 yard, etc target, so i wonder when we talk about shot calling is it really a discussion of shot calling relative to the distant we are shooting. My shot calling problems in a match are not at 3 yard or 20 yard targets. It is those pesky 15 yard targets.

As far as seeing the sight lift I am about half and half seeing the sight actually lift versus having a mental picture of where it was. The speed at which I am shooting is a factor in seeing actual lift versus mental pictire. My current goal is to see the sight lift on 15 yard targets at match speed.

There is that pesky speed creeping in on us again. For many of us, it's the spoiled child that demands attention (who spoiled it? we did...lol). Couple that with all the other things we have going on in our practical sport, and it becomes amazing that our front sight gets any love at all.

That is too bad. We treat our front sight poorly. It is always there for us. It always treats us right. It never tells us a lie. It's the crystal ball that is never wrong and that is right there for us to use...any time we want.

[Flexmoney]

I have yet to come upon a stage that is so run-n-gun...such a hoser...that I couldn't use my front sight. Sure, with really close targets, I can call the shot without the front sight (heck, I've shot matches without sights on my gun). But, the front sight is right there on the gun. It gives us the most...and best...feedback.

The trick is...not to take up any time while using the front sight.

The trick is...not to take up any time while using the front sight.

How to do that? One aspect is to have a superior index...such that the sights are right there for you. You don't have to hunt for them, nor muscle the gun around to line them up. A second aspect is to keep the vision moving. Quick focal changes...that never really stop...always flowing...always seeing.

[schmitz]

I can't call my shots, probably I'll never learn to call them.

It's a matter of fact.

I realised this some time ago!

Does this mean to quit! NO! it doesn't, live with it and enjoy oncoming matches.

Will I be a GM, NO I never will be..

not many call their shots..only the lucky few.

[el pres]

Today I devoted 300 rounds to the two shot, look away, mark shots on seperate

target, drill. When I saturated with o's and cleared my head of everything I could see

the take off. How I'm going to see that in a match I have no idea but I bet it has

something to do with practice!!

This was two shots about a sec. apart and look away. The

weird thing is I was calling 90% at 25yds but only 50% at 15yds ?? I think the 15yd had a

lazier focus and I kept calling the sight picture and not the lift off. I cant wait to devote

more rounds to the process.

[ap3]

The

weird thing is I was calling 90% at 25yds but only 50% at 15yds ?? I think the 15yd had a

lazier focus and I kept calling the sight picture and not the lift off. I cant wait to devote

more rounds to the process.

That has been my experience as well with the 15 yard shots. I have been using a steel target that is only the size of an A zone and shooting 15yard Bills dirlls, so I can get my sight lift seeing displined for match speed. I think I am going to start adding 15 yard El Prez drills, so I can add in the transition part to this vision training.

First club match is tommorrow, all things may change when I hear the timer go off.

PS: DIRTY CHAMBER, that is a one of the funniest avatars I have ever seen.

Edited February 29, 2008 by ap3

[lugnut]

This is great reading for me. I'm a SS in IDPA, I think that is similar to maybe a B in USPSA. Here is what I see:

Unless up real close, I always try to see the front sight well positioned in the the rear sight- until the shot breaks. I've validated that I don't flinch often because in a low light stage I could distinctly see the orange muzzle flash between the front sight and rear notch and above.

Here is what I can't seem to do. When I am focusing on the front sight- I often can't validate exactly WHERE on the tan cardboard I'm getting a sight picture on. I can tell reasonably well... but not perfectly by any means. I also can see the front sight before the shot breaks and of course see the sight once it appears in the notch again. I CAN NOT see the front sight rise and come back... I lose the sight after the shot. I know be says he can see the figure 8... that is amazing to me as I'm sure the front sight is screeming both backways AND upwards after the shot. This is what completely baffles me.

Can some of you Masters- really track the sight??? I don't "think" this is calling your shots but it's amazing nonetheless.

[el pres]

You dont have to be a master to track your sight. I do it all day long, figure eight the

whole thing. Its the lift off thats the hardest thing to see and see quickly, thats where

the shot went. After that you dont even have to track the sight just see it come back in...

Lugnut, I bet your blinking, try to double muff. Thats how I found my front sight !

Edited March 1, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[Bergie]

what are you talking about when you refer to figure 8.

Is it with iron sights or a dot?

[el pres]

what are you talking about when you refer to figure 8.

Is it with iron sights or a dot?

Either!! Depending on your grip and stance etc.. your ft sight or dot can go up in recoil and

move around a bit before it comes down. When I first started to see the sights track it used

go up to about 2:00 then move over to about 10:00 and come back down. Now that I've

corrected my grip pressure it pretty much tracks straight up and down and the recovery

is much faster for me that way but I think the most important thing is it comes back down to

the same place, right between the rear where it took off from..

I dont know, theres alot of really high end (GM) shooters on here that can really address that

well, I'm just scratching the surface of calling the shot...

[benos]

There is that pesky speed creeping in on us again.

At the ultimate level, there will not be any sensation of shooting fast or of shooting slow. The sense of passing time is absorbed by pure seeing.

be

[Phil Dunlop]

I think I should contribute to this topic.

I can call my shots, but I have wandered from the path from time to time.

The most recent occassion was this weekend, at our South Island Champs. The match was yet another comeback for me, 15 months after wining our Nationals on a similar mission, with little preparation except for dry fire and and a couple of no stress stages at the club.

I came last on the first stage, the second wasn't much better and the next two were quite forgettable.

Anyway, the turning point came on a terrible stage with light streaming from behind 20 meter targets hidden behind barrels and visible from various points, designed to confuse!

It was impossible to see hits because the patches did little to hide previous shots.

I decided the only way to save some face was to get behind those sights and just shoot the shots as they needed shooting, with deliberation.

I did well on that stage, and followed that plan for the rest of the match. The A count soared, and apart from a miss, (which I knew about!) on a fast moving bobber, I shot a very solid if unexceptional match.

The result was second Standard, 2.5% behind the winner, which was assured my ageing ego but did beg the question, how much would I have won by if I had started with the same dicipline I finished with.

P.D.

[Allgoodhits]

Thirty years ago during my PPC (revolver only then) days as a HM we would had three matras. The tighter the grip the tighter the group and try the shooting fundamentals, and if all else fails, watch the front sight! Today, for me it is D..O..T........T.....r.....i.....g.....g.....e.....r on the long or accurate shots and maybe D.O.T....T.r.i.g.g.e.r on the intermediate shots and DOT Trigger on the close shots. For me not all shooting fundamentals are equally important for each shot. I refer to this as the fundamental priority shift, where the grip may be most important at fast quick close shots and the trigger may be most important at the longer shots, but all fundamentals are still present just at varying degrees or priorities. The trigger is an eraser! No matter how good all other fundamentals are applied, if the trigger is pressed recklessly it will erase all that was done to that point.

To me calling the shots is at it's best as was taught by the rifle shooters. After all if they called shots accurately they were doing this without benefit of seeing the holes. Some current pistol shooters claim to call their shots as that is an achievement in it's self. But are they really calling the shot, or seeing the bullet hole then reconsidering where the sights were to make the story jive.

I learned to call shots from a rifle shooter, but shooting a handgun. He would have me shoot at a distance, usually at least 50 yds, where I could not see the hits. After each shot, he would have me plot on a target at the firing point where I thought the bullet would be. This was done after each shot. After shooting 6 or 12 shots, we then would go down to the target and compare the actual target with the target I plotted. If they matched then I called my shots. If they didn't, then I had more work to do.

After plotting each shot, shot by shot until I learned that, then I would shoot the entire string of usually not more than 6. Then I would plot the six shots and number them, i.e. the 3 rd shot broke slightly high right, or the last shot was in orbit at 8 oclock and so on.

After years of doing this, it makes it easier as one does not have to consciously think about some of these things, since now most all of the sights, grip, breathing and trigger have become more subconscious at least on those good days. On some days, thing s just don't work quite so well for me. If I am shooting good, I keep shooting and hopefuilly quit before things fall off. If I am shooting poorly on a given day, I try to have the sense to pack up and go home, unless I am smart enough to realize that I just wasn't doing what I needed to do and regrouped so to speak.

We all do things slightly differently, but to shoot accurately we all must have an accurate gun, have it sighted in, place the sights in the desired aim area and cause the gun to fire without modifying the shape or size of the wobble however big or small it is while pressing the trigger.

Sorry for the slight drift, but some things are just so interrelated. You must have a handle on fundamentals, before you can deliver a good shot on demand each and every time. One must have the skill to do that, or even if they could call shots, they can't do anything about it.

Martin

[Ron Ankeny]

not many call their shots..only the lucky few

I really feel if you would spend some quality range time with an accomplished shooter from any pistol shooting discipline who can call thier shots, it wouldn't take long to get you headed down the right path. Shot calling isn't hard to learn. Doing it at speed is someting to be developed over time. Do you blink subconsiously when the gun fires?

[Miranda]

Consider why you are working on calling your shot.

Perhaps you are trying hard to save time?

If you look at the target you are spending time you do not need to spend,

because if you had actually called the shot, you already know what WILL happen.

spend the time thinking about what you should do next.

spend the time watching the front sight settle on the target you want.

think of it this way...

you sight and break the shot.

now what do you do?

ok, yanked trigger, I missed way right

Same target. Don't yank.

That last sentence is what I think before the pistol is finished cycling.

I already knew what to do next and I did not have to look at the target.

Now all that said...

I think it hilarious that

I push, flinch, yank, heel, anticipate recoil

and dodge hot shells that sometimes don't go over my right elbow.

I would see none of that If I wasn't trying hard to call all of my shots.

miranda

[Michael Carlin]

"Same target. Don't yank"

Should probably be, something like

"Same target, smooth trigger"

[fastshooter03]

"Calling Shots" and shooting on the move is the only way FAT BOYS-I mean Festively Plump Gentlemen-like me can come close to winning bigger matches.

Best I can describe it is having your eyes defocused and looking at everything sorta like a HUD. Watch the dot bounce and let her go at the right time. Either that or its my bad eyesight that helps.

Nick

[Miranda]

"Same target. Don't yank"

Should probably be, something like

"Same target, smooth trigger"

ok. same target ,smooth trigger

and I thought it before the bullet crossed the plane of the paper.

That is I was making that decision based of the sight picture

when the bullet was on barely on its way.

ummm good luck on making good decisions....

but at least you have a wee little more time to give it some thought.

miranda