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How many can call their shots?


Gallow

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Calling your shots in no new technique and not derived in the sport of practical shooting. I first learned to call my shots in the Marine Corps on the rifle range. We called every shot in a record book. Take the shot, plot the "call" and repeat. Rifle and bullseye shooter have done this for years. There is no mystical talent required. Just see (call) your sight relationship to the target the instant the shot is fired. Now doing this at the speed we shoot in practical shooting takes some getting used to. And is more difficult than one shot at a time. But with practice, it is acheivable. It is just something that most shooter lack to do on a shot to shot or match to match basis. There are times I know where all my hits are, and there are times when I get lazy and don't call every shot. It is easy to get caught up in the moment of blazing away, and while it is fun, it isn't as productive consistantly.

Yes, I discovered later that calling your shots was basic to all competition shooting. I just encountered the idea first in Brian's book. I got so I could see the front sight clearly for shots out to 15 yards, but seldom see it "lift." I could refine sight alignment for longer shots, but I can seldom remember the sight picture when the shot breaks, even using an airgun. I was mostly interested in shooting pins when I started, and bought myself a Beeman C-5 (a 5-shot target airgun, $1,200.00 as I recall) and shot at paper pins in an effort learn to call shots at speed. It helped a little, but didn't translate well to using a heavy-loaded .45 on reactive targets like pins.

I recall that Brian said that we all know shooters who are stuck at the lower levels of Master class but can't seem to improve, and that this was because they hadn't learned the fundimentals of shooting, like reading the sights. So eventually I decided that I could live with being a low Master. Didn't make it, but that was for other reasons.

As for rifles, I hardly ever shoot them, and when I do I can't hit anything. I could ring the 10" 100-yard gong at our club pretty regularly with a .45 auto, but can't put 5 shots in 10" at that distance with a rifle. I'll have to take a few lessons sometime.

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I think the most important thing is to find out how you can call your shots

I can call my shots. But I don't see what I thought Brian saw when I read his book.

spook--

Now that's really interesting. Maybe my problem is that I've been looking for something that's really just an idea, instead of seeing what's there and using it. Thanks.

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This is a great post.

I am an A shooter that is stuck in a rut, so I have gone back to the fundamentals. I don't know that I have always seen the sight lift(calling shots), just kind of left with a feeling that I needed to make a shot up and 90% of the time my instinct was right. The times I have not been in a zone to hear my instincts has trashed my score due to visual patience.

My whole focus the winter has gone back to seeing the sight lift and recoil management. I have actually gotten slower split times, but I am determined to improve my skills at seeing the sight lift and return to the notch. My best time on a 15 yard Bills drill is 3.5, but every hit is in the A zone, and every shot was called. I just hope that I still have enough youth in me, to be rock solid in my fundamental and recover my old "out of control" speed.

Whew......I feel like I just got through with a confessional. ...Hi, my name is Albert and I am a speed-aholic

Edited by ap3
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I just started to "see", open my eyes. As mentioned, its a skill that fades fast. I go to the range and shoot the

berm for a mag or two to find it then it works about 50% of the time. A week or two off and I have to start all

over. In matches I believe I am only doing it subconciously, after really trying to pratice calling I've found myself

making up shots automatically mostly on steel (before I can hear them).

I find the hardest part is to see the lift-off. I dont know why, could be a slight blink, but I am seeing the flash. I cant see my

sights ride the whole time everytime but the lift-off is what I miss. I have a pretty consistant sight track and sometimes use

where my sight returns to as my call point but thats my 50%.

I am very courious as to why evryone is refering to calling as an "understanding" of it, not doing, or performing the task ????

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He made up the shot on the paper target so fast I thought he had planned 3 shots on

Yeah, that can be pretty amazing.

At the Area-1 match in 2004, I was running a stage when Athena Lee came through with the ladies squad. The stage had a low target behind a window, and the bottom sill of the window was high enough that Athena was going to have to stretch to get her gun over it.

When her turn came, she got to the window, and broke 3 shots. By the time she was *done*, my brain had caught up enough to realize that her first shot had gone through the hard-cover window-sill, so the third shot was clearly a make-up shot. When scoring was done, I rolled back the timer and found that the "split" on that follow-up shot was 0.28... which means it took her just barely a quarter of a second (!) to realize what had happened and fire a make-up shot.

I wish *I* had that ability!

B

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I see A and below shooters that cannot call a shot at all, and some that can call a shot part of the time. I see M shooters that will run a stage or portion of a stage with the brain turned off and not call a single shot in that stage or portion of a stage.

I have been fortunate enough to shoot a couple matches with Ted Puente and Manny Bragg, they know without a doubt what the score is when finished, and will be within a point or two on a big field course. It seems amazing from a casual glance but I have done it on occasion too.

I think it would be really hard to make M without being able to call a shot, and I feel I know for a fact (my opinion) that you can't compete at the M level without calling shots.

I call shots really well sometimes and sometimes I have no idea what the score will be when I unload. The ticket for me is going to be to call them all the time, not only are the points there when I call shots the stage times are lower too. Not knowing is a lot slower and a lot more work. All I have to do is wait for the shot break to finish and the calls are right on, the hardest part is it feels slow even though it is more efficient and therefor faster. Trying is my worst enemy.

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I see A and below shooters that cannot call a shot at all, and some that can call a shot part of the time. I see M shooters that will run a stage or portion of a stage with the brain turned off and not call a single shot in that stage or portion of a stage.

I have been fortunate enough to shoot a couple matches with Ted Puente and Manny Bragg, they know without a doubt what the score is when finished, and will be within a point or two on a big field course. It seems amazing from a casual glance but I have done it on occasion too.

I think it would be really hard to make M without being able to call a shot, and I feel I know for a fact (my opinion) that you can't compete at the M level without calling shots.

I call shots really well sometimes and sometimes I have no idea what the score will be when I unload. The ticket for me is going to be to call them all the time, not only are the points there when I call shots the stage times are lower too. Not knowing is a lot slower and a lot more work. All I have to do is wait for the shot break to finish and the calls are right on, the hardest part is it feels slow even though it is more efficient and therefor faster. Trying is my worst enemy.

I almost totally agree with this. I do believe you see shooter start calling their shots more towards the A level than the M level. In rare cases, you can see shooters doing this at a B level. I think it's easier to recognize a shooter calling their shots at the M and above level, because they make the necessary shots up. Many A shooters (myself included) are just getting it, are seeing a bad sight picture, but are too caught up in the cadance of shooting and make the shot up (sometimes on the wrong target) after a target or two. It's still calling the shot. It's just taking longer for it to register.

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As a middle B shooter in Prod and Limited, I've had a few stages where I was "in the zone". I've gone through an array of, say, 4 targets as fast as I could and then came back to pick up a bad hit. I think the real problem is that I cannot totally clear my head. I don't know why but I get stage freight. My biggest problem is that I usually signup as squad leader and perform RO duties and I don't fully prepare and get a game plan together before taking my turn. In the past year I've been treating matches as more of a social time than seriously trying to improve my skills. Shooting only one match per month and not practicing has gotten me to middle B which must be the peak of my natural ability without more focused training. This year that is going to change. I'm going to shoot more matches and practice on my own in order to prepare for Area 1.

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I am very courious as to why evryone is refering to calling as an "understanding" of it, not doing, or performing the task ????

My understanding of it is it is not something you can do, it is something you have to observe and experience for yourself.

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I see A and below shooters that cannot call a shot at all, and some that can call a shot part of the time. I see M shooters that will run a stage or portion of a stage with the brain turned off and not call a single shot in that stage or portion of a stage.

I have been fortunate enough to shoot a couple matches with Ted Puente and Manny Bragg, they know without a doubt what the score is when finished, and will be within a point or two on a big field course. It seems amazing from a casual glance but I have done it on occasion too.

I think it would be really hard to make M without being able to call a shot, and I feel I know for a fact (my opinion) that you can't compete at the M level without calling shots.

I call shots really well sometimes and sometimes I have no idea what the score will be when I unload. The ticket for me is going to be to call them all the time, not only are the points there when I call shots the stage times are lower too. Not knowing is a lot slower and a lot more work. All I have to do is wait for the shot break to finish and the calls are right on, the hardest part is it feels slow even though it is more efficient and therefor faster. Trying is my worst enemy.

I almost totally agree with this. ......... Many A shooters (myself included) are just getting it, are seeing a bad sight picture, but are too caught up in the cadance of shooting and make the shot up (sometimes on the wrong target) after a target or two. It's still calling the shot. It's just taking longer for it to register.

This is a very good point, and probably the core problem with visual patience.

I also share the same problem as DIRTY CHAMBER in simply seeing the sight as it first takes off. However, I have noticed that if I can see the sight return to the notch it seems to give me the same info as seeing it lift. Kind of like the follow through on your golf swing will tell you if you hit the ball right or not.

It was after a class I took with Manny Bragg that I realized I needed to return to this fundamental. I moved out of B to A when I became consistent in my performance. I believe HSSMITH is right you can't make it to M unless you refine the fundamental of calling your shots.

I may go through the stages like frankenstein this year, but my one goal for the entire season is to learn how to call the shots better.

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There's a lot of different ways people call the shot. As long as you know if the shot was acceptable before it hits the target, you're good.

I know one very good limited shooter that goes entirely on 'feel'-- if it didn't feel right, he makes it up. He doesn't (consciously) do the traditional 'where did the front sight lift from?" routine. Me, I can't tell you what my score is at the end of the stage, because I forget one target on the way to the next, but when I shoot aware, I know I don't have to go downrange and look at any targets (or which targets I do need to go look at ;)).

In my opinion, somebody could get to Master without learning to call shots-- all they need is time practicing the index, driving the sights onto the target and mashing the trigger. They probably wouldn't win a lot of matches, but getting lucky on 6 classifiers wouldn't be that hard; after all, most of the time calling a bad shot on a classifier won't help; they're Virginia Count or have a HHF that will eat your lunch or both.

For people that do see the sights lift (or wonder if they can), shoot one round at a time out of a mag that locks the slide back. That's a good test to see what you're seeing.

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Jim, I fight with that a LOT. The trick for me is to just 'let the shot happen' and watch it. Sounds corny as hell, but if I just watch the shot go I know EXACTLY where the bullet went. If I put ANY 'try' in it I have a really hard time seeing where it went. Just watching the sight and watching the shot go is the key for me. Don't know if it will help you or not but I think it is worth a try. It feels slow, REALLY slow, but it is faster than any other method I have ever tried.

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Seeing sights and "Seeing" are a trained skill. I am not what any one could call a fast learner. My biggest asset is that I do not give up. I just don't know how to give up.

I had the luck to have a great friend that is a great teacher. He teaches -Teaching- Sporting Clays. What I found so amazing about Creg Porter is that he can not only tell you what you saw when you made some shots but can help you pull the images out of you brain so that you can understand and learn. He can teach how to teach that skill.

Sporting is every bit as fast as IPSC shooting = not as many targets , only two per call. But the eye have to be fast to locate the moving targets and understand ware to insert the moving barrel to make a hit. The barrel is most always pointed at some place that the target is NOT at.

Any Way If you really want to learn to -Call Your Shots- Get a good coach/ instructor that can communicate and has the ability of observation. Any one can tell you the shot went left or right = a good Observer can tell you what the cause was. and they can tell you what you saw at the moment the gun fired.

If you can teach your self to be a better observer by watching over the shoulder of another shooter = You can learn to calling their shots .

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Most of the time I am able to call my shots. I have to warm up to it though. My first stage of the day I do not call the first couple. At the end of the 1st and for the rest of the day I can call them. I do not call them within an inch but I know when it is a solid A or an A/possible C and when it is a D/Miss.

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The usual problem is not really being able to call your shots ... it's really knowing that you are picking a spot and not just shooting "brown".

Not "settling" for just shooting/calling "brown" requires a little more patience and practice. For sure easier said than done, but you must be aware of the size limits in your target's score area, and practice leading/calling your shots there. Uh ... something that several (or more) thousands of shots can help cure.

The real problem is that many shooters have no patience and try to make it up by just shooting lots of lead down range, and settling for double tapping, rellying only on calling the first shot. Sometimes I catch myself doing just that, and end up with the usual "alpha - mike" especially while moving. Not fun at all. :angry2:

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In my experience with shootinng HP it was an acquired skill. I was advised that calling shots was good practice as long as the gun and the ammo was not suspect. That means the shooter has a bit of skill to begin with. This guy helping me use to say it was like being a launch control officer in Minuteman III LCF, you can line things up but once you let her fly it is gone! I got caught up admiring my art work at times when shooting rapid fire strings, the first two shots would be on call but had group shift of the last 8 shots.....and lost focus on the front sight and my position. Slow fire prone was easier.

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Funny this shot calling. G David Tubb calls his shots VERY accurately at 600 yards. I mean he will shoot and then can say something like " That one was a little right 3 oclock" By the way its well in the black too.

We did the same thing in the Corps at 200, 300, and 500yds. And when the target was run back up with the spotter, the spotter had better be where we plotted it in our books. The definition of calling the shot I see now is not where the front sight is when we pull the trigger, as I had been taught. That I can do. Now it is where the front sight is when it starts to lift which is a split second later. I have tried but I have not developed that skill yet. I still see where the sight was when I fired the shot.

So here is a question to those who CAN call their shots, How much of a difference is there in the two techniques?

edited to say I just read Rocket35's comment on Marine Corps marksmanship also.

Edited by pas44
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Funny this shot calling. G David Tubb calls his shots VERY accurately at 600 yards. I mean he will shoot and then can say something like " That one was a little right 3 oclock" By the way its well in the black too.

We did the same thing in the Corps at 200, 300, and 500yds. And when the target was run back up with the spotter, the spotter had better be where we plotted it in our books. The definition of calling the shot I see now is not where the front sight is when we pull the trigger, as I had been taught. That I can do. Now it is where the front sight is when it starts to lift which is a split second later. I have tried but I have not developed that skill yet. I still see where the sight was when I fired the shot.

So here is a question to those who CAN call their shots, How much of a difference is there in the two techniques?

I wasn't in the Corps but the second description is a little fuzzy. Calling the shot is Knowing where the shot when the instant you shot it. You can use the front sight, rear sight, your index, the slide, your thumb, practically anything but most of it is sight alignment. Its not the sight, its you that calls the shot. Its a relationship between seeing and experience. Throw awareness in there too but don't try too much either.

Edited by BSeevers
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The definition of calling the shot I see now is not where the front sight is when we pull the trigger, as I had been taught. That I can do. Now it is where the front sight is when it starts to lift which is a split second later. I have tried but I have not developed that skill yet.

What are you seeing?

Nothing...as in a blink or flinch? Or, are you looking toward the target to admire your work?

It might seem odd, but if the shooter can quit getting caught up with where their bullet went on the target...they can learn where their bullet went on the target. :blink:

Make the desire of your shooting to see the front sight lift in recoil. Lose any care at all about where the bullet went. Make sweet monkey love to the idea of seeing that sight lift. Nothing else matters.

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The definition of calling the shot I see now is not where the front sight is when we pull the trigger, as I had been taught. That I can do. Now it is where the front sight is when it starts to lift which is a split second later. I have tried but I have not developed that skill yet.

What are you seeing?

Nothing...as in a blink or flinch? Or, are you looking toward the target to admire your work?

It might seem odd, but if the shooter can quit getting caught up with where their bullet went on the target...they can learn where their bullet went on the target. :blink:

Make the desire of your shooting to see the front sight lift in recoil. Lose any care at all about where the bullet went. Make sweet monkey love to the idea of seeing that sight lift. Nothing else matters.

What I see is basically a mental picture of where the front sight was at the instant I pull the trigger and the shot is fired. I don't see the sight lift.

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