Need some legal advice

[Jeff686]

Sorry Jane but 4 points & $175 makes it sound like you were going a lot faster than you should have been. Last ticket I got was in the city because I passed an old fuddy duddy who put his brakes on to go around a curve in a 35MPH 4 lane street. I went down the next day to pay the ticket and since it was within a 3 day period, they allowed me to plead guilty and accept 6 months probation and did not notify the DMV about the ticket. Still cost $60 for 10 over. Might see if that applies in your state.

Ha! I disagree. $175 is cheap. That's probably the first, and lowest, fine possible (by speed. If that includes the 'court fees' and other junk, that's really cheap!!

[Carmoney]

My question was not a moral one...it was a legal one.

Of all the places you might have taken your legal question, you choose the Brian Enos forum?? Wow.

[Gallow]

I hate to disagree with everybody and I may be wrong, but when I was getting lots of tickets in my 20s in Michigan, a mistake on a ticket got you off, period. You are up before a judge on a citation, and if the citation's wrong--like citing a trailer registration--it would have been dismissed. When you plead not guilty, you're saying you're not guilty of the citation, not that you're not guilty of anything. In those days, anyway, the policeman couldn't say "oh, gee, I wrote it wrong, but the defendent is still guilty of something else." Maybe things have changed.

I'm surprised at the number of responses here advising you to 'fess up and "do the right thing." Certainly if you were driving dangerously, quit doing it. I read an interview with TGO in some magazine years ago, and the interviewer, in the car with Rob, commented on his very very fast driving. Rob said, (I'm quoting from memory, please correct me if I'm wrong) "Yeah, I drive fast. I think all IPSC shooters drive fast....I accept a certain amount of risk.." Then he took his bike out to test it at 120mph or so. Of course, TGO isn't going to get stopped around Phoenix, since he's a LEO instructor, etc. But I find it strange that everyone is so sanctimonious about those of us who are stopped. There are sections of highway here around Detroit and Ann Arbor where if you aren't exceeding the speed limit by at least 15-20 mph, you're impeding traffic. But a cop still will pop out and cite someone if he or she is inclined.

It's true that paying up and forgetting it may be the smartest thing to do, but unless you were driving dangerously, I think morality doesn't have much to do with it.

[Gallow]

Just a postscript: Before Pat Sweeney reminds me, a judge can do anything he or she wants. Or as Pat said to our club when the neighbors were trying to shut us down, and hearings were being held-- "One thing you never say to a judge: 'You can't do that.'"

[Matt Cheely]

If I remember the area around Jane's house accurately, there's nothing more than cornfields. 10-15 over a 55mph speed limit in the middle of nowhere is something that just about everyone does.

I wouldn't pay it. Try something at least. If the officer didn't already reduce the speed of the infraction at the stop there is nothing more they can do to you if you go to court. I have often seen that if you're doing 10 over and they write you up for 5 over, the officer has the discretion to up it to the full 10 over if you show up to court. Makes you want to pay it then...

Edited February 12, 2008 by Matt Cheely

[turbocomp38s]

I don't know how it works there in Indiana but I had a traffic violation last 2004 here in TN and pleaded guilty and have to take traffic school. I did pay for the court fees and the class but it was 20dollars less from the speeding ticket considering that it was my first violation and the points was waived. $175.00 dollars is a lot of money. Goodluck.

[boo radley]

Don't know how it works in Indiana, but I'd imagine the same most everywhere in US. 3 choices.

Pay fine -- $175? Plus points on your record, which will translate into a nasty insurance hike; worse, if there's a second ticket in a certain amount of time.

Fight it yourself. Very easy to say from the armchair. Guess what? Lawyers like to talk to other lawyers about law - not the public, unless they're getting paid. Are you willing to spend a day of vacation on this? A day, plus the court date? (And you might be one of the last cases called). Could be very expensive and still leave you with a guilty plea, and court costs and fine....

Pay a lawyer. A couple hundred bucks....it all goes away.

[Caspian_45]

Jane whether you fight the ticket or not. Make sure to file a complaint with the "young" officers commanding officer. If his boss gets enough complaints about this officer you can bet he'll do something about him. To some cops it's a power trip.............most are real polite though.

Good luck

[Chriss Grube]

Now there's good advice call and complain to his supervisor that he gave you a ticket and made a mistake on it. No where in the info was there anything the Trooper did wrong other than being young and writing the wrong info from a registration given by the driver. Oh yeah he asked the standard question "do you know how fast you were going?" Contrary to the answers here it is usually a chance for the person to give a reason if they have one. You would be surprised how many people end up with a warning after that. Oh yeah and he had a smuck look, ok he was probably trying not to laugh his ass off when all the stuff came flying out all over. I get about 3-5 calls a month from people that think that way. I was wrong but the Trooper wasn't nice, didn't explain everything, blah blah blah. I love the age of no personal responsibility. Yep I screwed up but it is somebody else's fault.

[benos]

In the FWIW department... After quizzing MANY LEOs at Second Chance over the years, I came up with this game plan. Which is contrary to one's typically normal reaction when question as to why you were pulled over.

Officer: Do you know why I pulled you over?

Me: Yes sir, because I was speeding. (Or whatever else I did.)

Officer: Do you know what the speed limit is?

Me: Yes, 55 mph.

Officer: Do you know how fast you were going?

Me: Yes, and I tell him the exact speed, and why I was consciously driving over the speed limit.

If you answer "no" to those first three questions, you probably just guaranteed yourself a ticket.

Over years of driving around the country, I can't remember ever getting a ticket when I used the above strategy. Cops want to know if you are paying attention, because they know that non-attentive drivers kill each other. During one summer's multi-Area-match road trip alone, I was pulled over 6 times for speeding and didn't get one ticket.

Also, by the time the officer reaches my window I'll have my hands at 2 and 10 o'clock on the steering wheel, and if it's dark I'll have the dome light on. Just making the officer comfortable is a good thing (for you too.)

And here's the final routine I learned that flies in the face of any logical response to speeding past a cop. Imagine this scenario - You're speeding down the road and a cop does a 180 and comes after you. Or so you think anyway. You keep driving, anxiously waiting to see if he's going to pull you over. There's no way you're going to just pull over. That would be admitting guilt, right? Well, according to my research - as soon as you see the cop turn around, the best thing to do is pull over. Why? a., Now the officer knows that at least you were paying enough attention to see him. And b., The officer is already thinking that you are an LEO, because cops are the only ones who will do that. And also don't forget that if he's not after you he would just drive on by you anyway.

be

[Chris Keen]

Leave it to Brian to remind us to ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION!

PS that last part makes good sense Brian. Pull over, get your documents out so you're ready when he gets to your window, and dont make the officer drive any further than he needs to catch up with you. No reason to frustrate him if you dont need to.

Edited February 13, 2008 by CHRIS KEEN

[Rob Boudrie]

After quizzing MANY LEOs at Second Chance over the years, I came up with this game plan. Which is contrary to one's typically normal reaction when question as to why you were pulled over.

This one is a gamble - it can, and often does, work. When it doesn't, you can be assured that the officer's notes as to your admission of culpability will be written on the back of the ticket and read back in court if you fight the ticket.

[mpolans]

I'd fight it. Generally speaking, unless you were in a residential area or going stupid fast compared to surrounding traffic, fight it. Most speeding tickets have nothing to do with safety and are nothing but taxes. Don't believe it? How often have you seen cops speed by only to turn into a coffee shop? How often do you see someone pulled over for failing to signal a turn or a lane change? Rarely, because it's easier to just sit by the side of the road and veg out with radar gun. FWIW, the ticket might only be $175, but the increase in car insurance rates over the course of 3 years could cost 10 times that, maybe more.

[Coach]

What a storm you have stirred up here! The legal question in court in Indiana will be: Did the alleged violation more than likely occur? The judge will listen to you and to the officer and make a judgement call. He will think you were speeding or not. How much does not matter. So unless you are willing and able to into court and say I was not speeding, and I know it because it was 55 mph zone and I had just turned off a side road and had not had the time to get up to speed. Then you will lose in court.

You might call the number on the ticket and ask about the incorrect information on the summons. You might also double check with the State Police about the incorrect information on the summons. It may get you off, but they can correct that information at any time and still charge you if they want.

Most law enforcement in this area do not make a stop unless you are more than 15 mph over the limit, or they are looking for any reason to get you on the side of the road because they think you look suspicious. You and your vehicle don't look suspicious, so my guess is...

Going to court in order to hope for the no show officer is also a plan, but if you did not like your treatment by the officer wait until you get a dose of a judge.

I would advise against complaining against the trooper. It sounds like he is only guilty of not being able to keep a straight face, when the glove box got dumped. Those of us who expect the cop to be super nice and polite and the model professional would do well to remember that sometimes that speeding ticket ends up with a cop getting shot and killed. A trooper in northern Indiana stopped to help a guy with a flat tire just last year and was shot and killed. Cops have a tough job. Many of them are good people, but a few are not. Save the complaints for the ones that truly deserve it.

We would all do well to remember that it is our fault if we get pulled over. No violation. No stop.

[Calamity Jane]

I have enjoyed reading ALL of these responses. Thank you.

I want to clear one thing up. The area in which I got stopped is a speed trap. There is NO ONE....I repeat NO ONE...who goes the speed limit through that section of road. It is a 1/2 mile long stretch of 4 lane high way that narrows into 2 lanes. The idea of the speed limit is to slow people down before they make the jog onto 2 lanes. The speed limit for that stretch of road is 45 mph and the section right before the 2 lane is 35 mph. Most people have been on the 4 lane road doing 60 mph or more before they reach that section of the road. It's the easiest money making speed trap ever!

I don't mind paying the money....but I sure would like to find a way out of the points. I've only had 2 other tickets in my 26 years of driving.

The officer was not rude....just young and inexperienced....and probably a little scared.

This experience has caused me to pause and come up with a strategy for change. I'm going to start using my cruise control more often. I'll get better gas mileage and increase my chances of staying out of trouble.

[Dave Gundry]

I would find out if there's someone you can talk to at the courthouse. Here's a bit of my history/experience:

-1st ticket (city cop)- 30 over & tint too dark - no way I was doing 30 over, but I'm not exactly sure, so it's a moot point. Huge ticket for speeding + $90 for tint violation. Went to the courthouse, talked to the court official (hearing officer?) - put me on the good driver program - get no tickets for a year and the ticket disappears, of course you have to pay the full fine.

-2nd ticket (state patrol) - 15 over on a 55 (way up north) - crested a hill, saw him, saw his brake lights light up and by the time he started to swing wide to turn around I started pulling over. No nonsense, just gave me a ticket. Since I was from the city (5 hours away), it was probably nothing more than easy revenue, so he ticked me anyway, contrary to BE's findings. Couldn't get on the 'god driver program' since it was a state patrol. Pay the fine and take my medicine.

-3rd ticket (county cop) - 15 over in a 55 just getting out of town. She tailed me for a bit then flipped on the lights. Gave me a ticket, and wrote down the wrong model of vehicle - I was driving an '86 Audi 4000 (back of the car says Audi 4000CS Quattro) - she wrote down Audi Quattro, which is a super rare and very expensive old school model - called the county prosecutor, fessed up to speeding and noted the mistake on the ticket, he said the mistake on the ticket doesn't matter, it's still valid, and that he'd drop 5 off the speeding, bringing me to 10 over, which for some strange reason in MN, 10 or less over in a 55 doesn't go on your insurance, so I lucked out.

I'd had enough - so I pony'd up the dough and bought a Valentine 1 - 3 years later, not one more ticket, it's payed for itself at least once over, and my insurance only thinks I have one ticket

[mikegot38]

In PA, where I practice law and sponsor and shoot in a matches, the defects in the ticket would not help you one bit. However, the key is to not get points. You need to check your state vehicle code (usually available on line) to see how fast over the posted limit you must go before any points are assessed. For example, and I'm doing this without the Code in front of me, you must be going more than 5 over to get 2 points, more than 10 over for 3 points and so on. Often we are hired to go to the hearing to make sure there are no points as a result of whatever happens. We will negotiate a 5 over or another violation with no points. Also, in PA, the amount of the fine is directly related to the speed over the limit. Again, check your state statutes. In PA, you would need to plead Not Guilty and request a hearing to try to negoiate. Hope this helps. Good luck!

Michael P. Gottlieb, Esquire

NEVER MAKE AN ADMISSION TO A POLICE OFFICER NO MATTER HOW NICE HE IS. IT MAY COME BACK AND BITE YOU IN THE ...

[STInky]

The officer was not rude....just young and inexperienced....and probably a little scared.

Why do you keep blaming this whole incident of the "young & experienced" officer ??? You have admitted that you were breaking the law and you got caught. If you were so aware that the area is a "speed trap", why were you speeding through there to begin with...because everyone else was doing it ???? Peer pressure will get you every time !!!!!

I don't know the area you live in....and I certainly don't know the officer who stopped you...but I can assure you he wasn't scared while writing you a speeding ticket.

All this being said....Can you guess what I do for a living and have to listen to everyday ?????

[ofcrfs242]

In PA, where I practice law and sponsor and shoot in a matches, the defects in the ticket would not help you one bit. However, the key is to not get points. You need to check your state vehicle code (usually available on line) to see how fast over the posted limit you must go before any points are assessed. For example, and I'm doing this without the Code in front of me, you must be going more than 5 over to get 2 points, more than 10 over for 3 points and so on. Often we are hired to go to the hearing to make sure there are no points as a result of whatever happens. We will negotiate a 5 over or another violation with no points. Also, in PA, the amount of the fine is directly related to the speed over the limit. Again, check your state statutes. In PA, you would need to plead Not Guilty and request a hearing to try to negoiate. Hope this helps. Good luck!

Michael P. Gottlieb, Esquire

NEVER MAKE AN ADMISSION TO A POLICE OFFICER NO MATTER HOW NICE HE IS. IT MAY COME BACK AND BITE YOU IN THE ...

Two schools of thought on this one. From the prespective of an LEO that has been there if I stop you for speeding and I know you were but you play the game that you didn't know or even worse you weren't speeding you are assured a ticket from me. If you own up to your mistake without excuses "it's not posted good enough" etc. you would get a warning from me unless it was 25+ over. Not all officers are the same but I know many that if you take responsibility they will give you a break. Everyone makes mistakes. There are officers that all they care about is writing tickets. Kind of a gamble either way.

[Rob Boudrie]

However, the key is to not get points.

You're lucky you don't live in MA - the insurance penalty is 6 years, and the courts are specifically prohibited from engaging in any form of alternative sentencing that would "defeat the purpose of the safe driver plan" (ie, deprive the insurance company of increased revenues).

NEVER MAKE AN ADMISSION TO A POLICE OFFICER NO MATTER HOW NICE HE IS. IT MAY COME BACK AND BITE YOU IN THE ...

The rules are different for traffic infractions, since that is (a) the one place where admitting it may get you let off [yes, it will bite you if it does not work] and ( it often makes sense to appear in court without $300/hour legal counsel since the penalty if convicted may not be any worse than the legal fees to be represented.

Of course, if you're charged with a criminal offense rather than a civil infraction, all the rules about "admit nothing" and "don't even thing of representing yourself in court" would apply.

[bountyhunter]

Traffic Tickets = Revenue for City, County, State, etc.

If you definately know you were not speeding I would fight it.

Out here in kali, it doesn't matter: you are going to be found guilty regardless. Traffic school is the smart move.

[bountyhunter]

NEVER MAKE AN ADMISSION TO A POLICE OFFICER NO MATTER HOW NICE HE IS. IT MAY COME BACK AND BITE YOU IN THE ...

Words to live by..........

[ofcrfs242]

In a criminal case it is very true. If the conversation starts with "You have the right.........." envoke each and every one of them. I am amazed at how many people talk without an attorney (makes my job easier). Our union even tells our officers that if they are involved in a shooting and the interview starts with the Miranda Rights ask for an attorney before giving a statement.

[Calamity Jane]

The officer was not rude....just young and inexperienced....and probably a little scared.

Why do you keep blaming this whole incident of the "young & experienced" officer ??? You have admitted that you were breaking the law and you got caught. If you were so aware that the area is a "speed trap", why were you speeding through there to begin with...because everyone else was doing it ???? Peer pressure will get you every time !!!!!

I don't know the area you live in....and I certainly don't know the officer who stopped you...but I can assure you he wasn't scared while writing you a speeding ticket.

All this being said....Can you guess what I do for a living and have to listen to everyday ?????

Stinky,

I do apologize if I offended you. I'm an intensive care nurse so I too am a public servant who deals with the public and ALL their problems. I think nurses and cops share a kindred spirit. We just want to help and do the right thing.

I wish it had been you who had stopped me that night, because by your crabby reply, I KNOW we would have gotten along famously!

I have not in this post....or that night with the police officer admitted to speeding.

The purpose of this post was to solicit some legal advice because I know there are many lawyers on the forum. I know that I am responsible for an accurate record of events when I chart on patients. When I do so inaccurately I put myself and my hospital at risk for legal consequences. I was wondering if police were held to the same standard?

I do not blame the young and inexperienced officer for this incident. I was describing him. He may not have been scared but he was uneasy. Perhaps HE HAS talked to my Terminex man!

[bierman]

Pay a lawyer. A couple hundred bucks....it all goes away.

I can't count how many folks I arrested who told me "My attorney took care of that." It appreared that there were certain attorneys in my area who took a clients money and forgot all about them.