Focus: Tight or Wide

[Duane Thomas]

I notice that when I go for the classic, hard-on-the-front-sight focus, it's hard for me to track the front sight in recoil. It's like my eyes are a camera lens that's been tightened down, and the sight in recoil will actually bounce up out of the tight cone of my vision. Then it just suddenly reappears on the way down. Would a more relaxed focus, when I can see the sights, several targets (assuming a multiple target array), etc. and more space above the gun help me with the ability to track the front sight up and back down?

[Greg Bell]

Interesting question I was shooting indoors yesterday with typical crappy lighting. I remember seeing the muzzle flashes, and with my Glock's fiber sight I could see the green lift slightly right and fall right back in place but I'm not sure if I was able to track it's complete path. Hmmmm

[Chris Keen]

See what needs to be seen

[wide45]

See what needs to be seen

That does not answer the question.

What do you need to see?

I suspect that going to the range, and working on that question, would be time well spent.

[BSeevers]

See what needs to be seen

What do you need to see?

You need to see what you need to see to call the shot.

Yes that's requires training and practice.

I almost answered Duane's post with, It depends.

[Loves2Shoot]

... more space above the gun help me with the ability to track the front sight up and back down?

Why do you need to track the whole time during recoil?

As long as you call the shot and the sights return consistently you shouldn't have a problem. Once you call the shot, your eye eyes should go to the next target and not care where the sight is in recoil, because it will appear magically on what you are focused on.

When shooting fairly close targets 7-10 yards, a softer focus can be used they are easy shots and you don't have time to get your focus all the way back to the front sight to make it a crisp sight picture to call that shot, but you don't need to with practice.

Learning to trust softer focuses can be hard, but you can gain time if you can use the different levels of focus.

I think Brian covers this very well in his writings, and it seems to work for me when I can do it. I can tend to get too locked into the hard-on-the-front-sight focus and it is detrimental to my performances.

[el pres]

Hey what do I know but I have been trying this in berm shooting

practice. What always sticks in my head is someone on this forum

(either Flex or Brian) said to watch not stare...

Edited January 27, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[Phil Dunlop]

I'm with you on watching rather than staring and have learnt to make sure I relax my eyes as part of my pre stage prep

[boz1911]

I'm with you on watching rather than staring and have learnt to make sure I relax my eyes as part of my pre stage prep

Relax your eyes?, I haven't heard that before, please elaborate....

[grandbagger]

Relax your eyes?, I haven't heard that before, please elaborate....

i waiting on this one too

[Phil Dunlop]

I don't really know how to elaborate on that, but I'll try.

Perhaps the muscles involved are mainly facial, but the effect for me, is to change from a more intense vision, the type I would use to find the exact spot I want to hit, to a softer one.

When Brian talks about watching moving fan blades, or my own equivalent, trying to see the road surface infront of the car as I drive, its this softening that allows me glimpses in fine detail, of those two inputs.

I have no idea how the mechanics work, but know the process allows me to follow the front sight right through a Bill Drill for example.

The relaxing process goes hand in hand with 'emptying' the concious mind as I am awaiting the start signal.

P.D.

Edited January 27, 2008 by Phil Dunlop

[Duane Thomas]

I almost answered Duane's post with, It depends.

On?

[JThompson]

I'm with L2 on this one... why do you need to know, or care, where the sight goes as long as you pick it up when you need it. My way of thinking would be that you are doing it right now and to follow the sight through the whole range of motion could hinder rather than help.

I was hung up on how my dot was moving in recoil for some time. I worked my grip this way and that trying to control what it did. If you asked me where it goes now, I couldn't tell you. What I look for now is it returning to an acceptable sight picture, seemingly of it's own accord. It's hard to put into words, but I don't really care about the minutia only the result. For me it's like being very hyper observant without really doing anything consciously. When I do it right it's like watching a movie where I'm not really in control only an observer.

I don't know if that makes and sense or read like a load of crap, but that's how it feels.

Edited January 28, 2008 by JThompson

[BSeevers]

I almost answered Duane's post with, It depends.

On?

The target.

The distance and factors such as No-shoots, hard cover or movement.

Your skill level.

Lighting, weather, range conditions.

Calling the shot is a skill that is very hard to "put on paper" but the difference between an average or a great shooter. Seeing what you need to see AND winning your division requires practice, disicipline, hard work and awareness.

Calling the shot is seeing what YOU need to see to "know" what it was. Its sort of like riding a bike. Remember falling down trying to get the balance to go more than 20 feet? Calling the shot is sort of like you getting on a bike tonight. You would just ride and "know" how to do it. Adjusting to hills, bumps, dogs and what not. You "know" what to do.

Edited January 28, 2008 by BSeevers

[Duane Thomas]

My theory is that if your eye picks up the sight in its arc of recoil, if you can see how it's moving at all times, the subconscious mind is capable of processing that input and feeding it to your hands fast enough to cause the front sight to come right back where it needs to go, every time. Thoughts?

[Flexmoney]

(DT, Posting on the fly right now, and I don't want to half-ass it...I'll have to come back and read the thread after a bit. Multi-tasking sucks for giving serious answers.)

Short version...

See more.

Turn up the vision...OPEN up the vision.

Get out there on the live fire range with only that in mind, and just see where it leads you. Then share it with us. But, don't go out there with any expectations. Empty the glass and see what you put into it...then ask why you put it in there.

[Duane Thomas]

I do know that several months ago I was practicing Strings 1-3 of the IDPA classifier, which are three Mozambigues at seven yards (draw, two to the body, one to the head). I tend to live in the 2.2s to 2.5s on that drill. Yes, I know, I hang my head in shame. And not all those hits are -0s. Just for the hell of it, I decided to just shoot as fast as possible, and not take the time to verify the sights, just relax, not try to process any visual inputs, not look at anything, just have faith my subconscious could process it faster than I could even notice. Suddenly I was doing it in the 1.8s, the body shots were snake-eyes, the head shots so perfectly centered they looked like I'd used a compass. And this wasn't a one-off thing, I could do it again and again. Honestly, I don't even remember seing the sights for the first two shots, and only the very briefest of glimpses for the head shot. But I must have, otherwise how could I have directed the shots that well? But I wasn't able to let myself trust that enough to make it my default setting, to do it consistently in practice, then in matches. Instead it was right back to "watch the front sight, press the trigger".

[JThompson]

I do know that several months ago I was practicing Strings 1-3 of the IDPA classifier, which are three Mozambigues at seven yards (draw, two to the body, one to the head). I tend to live in the 2.2s to 2.5s on that drill. Yes, I know, I hang my head in shame. And not all those hits are -0s. Just for the hell of it, I decided to just shoot as fast as possible, and not take the time to verify the sights, just relax, not try to process any visual inputs, not look at anything, just have faith my subconscious could process it faster than I could even notice. Suddenly I was doing it in the 1.8s, the body shots were snake-eyes, the head shots so perfectly centered they looked like I'd used a compass. And this wasn't a one-off thing, I could do it again and again. Honestly, I don't even remember seing the sights for the first two shots, and only the very briefest of glimpses for the head shot. But I must have, otherwise how could I have directed the shots that well? But I wasn't able to let myself trust that enough to make it my default setting, to do it consistently in practice, then in matches. Instead it was right back to "watch the front sight, press the trigger".

That's a lot of what I was saying. I think Brian said it was like tossing your keys in the air and catching them without thinking about it... you just do, but when you start to TRY to catch them you drop them.

Edited January 28, 2008 by JThompson

[HSMITH]

Shooting on 'instinct', "timing', 'trust', any of that stuff where you are not verifying the sight picture and in 110% control breaking each shot when it is ready will bite you. Today your timing is great, tomorrow it isn't and it will go sideways in a hurry. If you can do it in 1.8 without looking and in 2.5 while hard on the front sight you just need to see faster. No more, no less, just don't get into a timing trap. Timing you cannot count on day to day, your vision never lies if you are really seeing.

[Flexmoney]

OK...I got a chance to read down thru some...

You may not need to track the sight thru recoil, but you probably should explore that. If not, you may not ever know if you are missing anything or not.

Eventually, you will probably get to a place where you can know whether seeing the sight lift, then snapping your vision to the next thing, will be a benefit to you or not.

[Flexmoney]

My theory is that if your eye picks up the sight in its arc of recoil, if you can see how it's moving at all times, the subconscious mind is capable of processing that input and feeding it to your hands fast enough to cause the front sight to come right back where it needs to go, every time. Thoughts?

Not a bad theory. Be careful with beginning with an expectation in mind though. At least, during your experimentation. You don't want to trade one tunnel view (hard focus) for another tunnel view ("I gotta see THIS").

[Flexmoney]

Shooting on 'instinct', "timing', 'trust', any of that stuff where you are not verifying the sight picture and in 110% control breaking each shot when it is ready will bite you. Today your timing is great, tomorrow it isn't and it will go sideways in a hurry. If you can do it in 1.8 without looking and in 2.5 while hard on the front sight you just need to see faster. No more, no less, just don't get into a timing trap. Timing you cannot count on day to day, your vision never lies if you are really seeing.

+1

That is a great point.

Again...with the 2.5 runs....you may be starting out with an expectation (I gotta see THIS, then do THIS, followed by THIS).

Your 1.8 runs were likely the result of you trusting your body/index to some degree. Don't fight that, but turn up your vision while that is going on. Let Duane the observer take in what Duane the shooter is doing.

[benos]

I don't really know how to elaborate on that, but I'll try.

Perhaps the muscles involved are mainly facial, but the effect for me, is to change from a more intense vision, the type I would use to find the exact spot I want to hit, to a softer one.

When Brian talks about watching moving fan blades, or my own equivalent, trying to see the road surface infront of the car as I drive, its this softening that allows me glimpses in fine detail, of those two inputs.

I have no idea how the mechanics work, but know the process allows me to follow the front sight right through a Bill Drill for example.

The relaxing process goes hand in hand with 'emptying' the concious mind as I am awaiting the start signal.

P.D.

Shooting on 'instinct', "timing', 'trust', any of that stuff where you are not verifying the sight picture and in 110% control breaking each shot when it is ready will bite you. Today your timing is great, tomorrow it isn't and it will go sideways in a hurry. If you can do it in 1.8 without looking and in 2.5 while hard on the front sight you just need to see faster. No more, no less, just don't get into a timing trap. Timing you cannot count on day to day, your vision never lies if you are really seeing.

Shooting on 'instinct', "timing', 'trust', any of that stuff where you are not verifying the sight picture and in 110% control breaking each shot when it is ready will bite you. Today your timing is great, tomorrow it isn't and it will go sideways in a hurry. If you can do it in 1.8 without looking and in 2.5 while hard on the front sight you just need to see faster. No more, no less, just don't get into a timing trap. Timing you cannot count on day to day, your vision never lies if you are really seeing.

+1

That is a great point.

Again...with the 2.5 runs....you may be starting out with an expectation (I gotta see THIS, then do THIS, followed by THIS).

Your 1.8 runs were likely the result of you trusting your body/index to some degree. Don't fight that, but turn up your vision while that is going on. Let Duane the observer take in what Duane the shooter is doing.

+3 to those. And especially "you may be starting out with an expectation." If you want to lengthen the learning curve, decide how you "should" do something before actually figuring out what is the best way.

And probably even worse, is to apply one "answer" or one "way" to a variety of different circumstances. (That's where the "depends" thing comes in.)

Your approach to a problem is more important the the "solution." Because your approach will determine your solution.

No matter how easy or difficult the target is, to shoot well you must call every shot. That never varies so it is fundamental to good shooting.

Through your own testing and evaluation, you have to determine "how to see" for every shot you will encounter.

There's no point to trying to see/track the front sight throughout its entire arc of travel. It's almost impossible to do anyway, in a typical shooting situation. But you do need to see it at the instant the shot fires/sight lifts (so you can call the shot of course), and although I wouldn't say you have to see it as it's coming back down into the rear notch, if you do, you will shot the second shot on the target more quickly and with more confidence because you are visually anticipating shooting the second shot.

be

[j1b]

I've never believed a full on focus on the front sight was overly productive.

Part of me believes that the idea of sole front sight focus came from the old days of bullseye shooting, where it is very clearly a good focus to have.

So much of the question is dependant upon the requirements of the shot. 50 yard shots require more sight focus than 15 yard shots. And on targets 4 yards and in I spend more time "around" the gun than I do on the sights.

I think Duane is on to something in that too tight a focus on the sight limits the peripherals. And those peripherals, IMO, are crucial to being able to shoot competently. I believe it is as important to know what the gun is doing as it is to see where the gun is at while shooting. As has been pointed out, this also eliminates some of those expectations around things like timing.

Getting a little off course here, in my experience there are two types of shooting styles out there. There are those that are exceptionally technical. They are the ones that hold the gun the exact same way, they are maniacal about positioning, they do things very precisely. And when on, they are tough to beat. Barhart was always one of those guys to me. He could dial in like it was nobody's business. I've never asked, but folks in this camp I'd imagine being very focused. They may not see the sight rise, but they don't need to. The machine is set up such that the sight returns back into the notch regardless of the path (though inherently they know the path is precisely the same with every shot)

Then there are those that are more freelance. Technically they are less stringent. I'd say they go with the flow more. Unlike the detail folks, these people are the ones that have to be in the general area with positioning. They don't have to be on the spot. I'm one of these guys. If one of the technical guys is on their game, they beat me nearly every time. However, I'd say the freelance folks are less dependant on being on. Because their style is more open, they are more open to things not being spot on. They have a tendency to be able to adapt more. Probably the best one of these folks is Robbie. Before I get shot down here, yes he's very technically sound. But overall he's much more go with the flow. I see these folks as being less front sight focused. They see a lot, and their adaptive shooting style allows them to fluctuate as the situation dictates.

Being sharply focused, or more relaxed, and how that impacts your shooting would probably depend on which of the two above buckets you fall into. For me, I gotta just relax and watch things work. For others, a very focused mechanism is the only way to get things done.

J

[Duane Thomas]

Thanks, Jack. You've made me think. I tend to be very technicaly focused, and that limits me. I'd be much better off with a more openminded style of shooting. Getting from one to the other is the current challenge.

This thread, and my original question, may seem like a "how to hold your focus" topic, but really I see it as much more a "how to hold your mind" question.