Turbo23 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 2. I don't think anyone is saying that such a modification would be legal in Production, but several people also shoot Glocks in Limited and Open, where such a modification would be legal. No...I already quoted you the rule. If I saw this on my range you WOULD NOT SHOOT!! Just my ,02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltgov Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It would still be as safe as a revolver.... A New York glock trigger is as safe as a revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBuzzard Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 The Glock stock trigger safety requires the safety to be almost flush with the pad to release it.You can't release it with a finger tip pull like on a 1911. You have to conciously stick your finger to the middle of the first pad to fire it. With that said, if you holster your weapon with a finger tip on the trigger and the safety not all the way flush, it won't fire. If that is any consolation! I'm sure there are several police officers with holes in their leg who would be willing to debate with you on the effectiveness of the trigger safety in preventing negligent discharges while reholstering a Glock with a finger in the triggerguard. Everyone should go out and TRY to holster their glock at home with a finger on the trigger, to simulate an ND (of course do this with with an unloaded glock). I find it pretty darn hard, and painful, to actually get a striker snap this way. No doubt it happens, but I just find it very hard to replicate in any reasonable way. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If I hand you an Edge with 2lb or less trigger with no thumb safety-would you be comfortable shooting it in competition?The Glock trigger safety doesn't prevent the holstering and drawing NDs-look at the ND's of the Glocks in use in law enforcement now. The PRIMARY safety on a Glock is/was the long and heavy trigger pull. Build a CCF frame Glock, get rid of all the useless "safeties" and slap a 1911 thumb safety on it!! Now, we reach the truth of the matter. As there is no manually engaged safety, folks shooting Glocks with light triggers are basically shooting guns as safe as an Edge with a 2lb trigger and no manually engaged thumb safety. It might be marginally safer because of the firing block safety and because the Glock is only half-cocked vs. an Edge with a fully-cocked hammer, but it's pretty close. Do you decide to just live with it, or ban 2lb trigger pulls on Glocks? I'm guessing those folks shooting Glocks with light triggers are opting for the former. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 2. I don't think anyone is saying that such a modification would be legal in Production, but several people also shoot Glocks in Limited and Open, where such a modification would be legal. No...I already quoted you the rule. If I saw this on my range you WOULD NOT SHOOT!! Just my ,02 Out of curiosity, has anyone seen a single incident where the trigger's safety lever was instrumental in preventing a discharge? Lots of folks here have mentioned dropped guns, but have not indicated how a simple drop could result in a discharge, much less how the safety lever would prevent a discharge. The *firing pin safety* would prevent a dropped gun from firing, as it blocks the firing pin from inadvertently traveling forward if the nub on the striker slips off the face of trigger bar's sear surface. The trigger safety lever *does not* prevent a dropped gun from firing; straight from Glock's website, "the trigger safety prevents inadvertent firing by lateral forces on the trigger." How often is there a problem where something unintentionally only contacts either the left or right 1/3 of the trigger, without contacting the trigger safety lever, thus preventing discharge? FWIW, Glock's website calls their third safety the "Drop Safety." However, it only describes the interaction of the nose of the trigger bar and the ramp on the connector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 People take 80 series 1911's and modify the internals to a series 70 and shoot in USPSA all the time. People pin grip safeties on 2011's all the time. How would this be any different? Really, somebody please explain to me how disabling these two safety mechanisims on other guns is any different than what Cy proposed for discussion here. Some of ya'll are swinging the word safety around like a dead cat over this idea, but I have $20 in my pocket you have NEVER pitched a hissy over either of the above two mods disabling safeties at a match to a MD, and have NEVER disallowed any gun with these two mods to them from a match. They are commonplace in current competition. What was said about people doing either of the above mods in USPSA when they first arrived on scene? For the record, the Glock being half-cocked is highly debatable and Glocks have been ruled a DAO by every set of competition gun rules I've ever read. Secondly, my conpetiton triggers will set every available primer off except CCI's and Military. Hardly what I would consider having to go soft for ignition. Short of a very very high drop, I don't think the trigger safety would even come into play in stopping an AD from dropping the gun even with a competiton trigger. I don't condone making a trigger for Glocks like Cy proposed, but at the same time I can hardly get passionate about how down right dastardly evil this modification would be compared to the two mods above. I also would be very hard pressed to find a rule that would disallow it in the blue book for a Glock Open or Limited gun. Sorry Flex, I read what you posted and the part that would allow the gun to be disallowed by an MD does not apply to a DA gun. I may be mistaken, but it's far from clear cut enough to toss someone's gun, IMO. (flame-suit is coming out for this one...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 People take 80 series 1911's and modify the internals to a series 70 and shoot in USPSA all the time.People pin grip safeties on 2011's all the time. How would this be any different? Really, somebody please explain to me how disabling these two safety mechanisims on other guns is any different than what Cy proposed for discussion here. Some of ya'll are swinging the word safety around like a dead cat over this idea, but I have $20 in my pocket you have NEVER pitched a hissy over either of the above two mods disabling safeties at a match to a MD, and have NEVER disallowed any gun with these two mods to them from a match. They are commonplace in current competition. What was said about people doing either of the above mods in USPSA when they first arrived on scene? For the record, the Glock being half-cocked is highly debatable and Glocks have been ruled a DAO by every set of competition gun rules I've ever read. Secondly, my conpetiton triggers will set every available primer off except CCI's and Military. Hardly what I would consider having to go soft for ignition. Short of a very very high drop, I don't think the trigger safety would even come into play in stopping an AD from dropping the gun even with a competiton trigger. I don't condone making a trigger for Glocks like Cy proposed, but at the same time I can hardly get passionate about how down right dastardly evil this modification would be compared to the two mods above. I also would be very hard pressed to find a rule that would disallow it in the blue book for a Glock Open or Limited gun. Sorry Flex, I read what you posted and the part that would allow the gun to be disallowed by an MD does not apply to a DA gun. I may be mistaken, but it's far from clear cut enough to toss someone's gun, IMO. (flame-suit is coming out for this one...) Holstering an Edge w/o putting the thumb safety on is a DQ for unsafe gun handling (at least is was in the Green book). I guess holstering a Glock w/o a functioning safety would be the same? Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Nope, you can holster a DAO or DA/SA loaded without an external safety being engaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltgov Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 The Glock stock trigger safety requires the safety to be almost flush with the pad to release it.You can't release it with a finger tip pull like on a 1911. You have to conciously stick your finger to the middle of the first pad to fire it. With that said, if you holster your weapon with a finger tip on the trigger and the safety not all the way flush, it won't fire. If that is any consolation! I'm sure there are several police officers with holes in their leg who would be willing to debate with you on the effectiveness of the trigger safety in preventing negligent discharges while reholstering a Glock with a finger in the triggerguard. Everyone should go out and TRY to holster their glock at home with a finger on the trigger, to simulate an ND (of course do this with with an unloaded glock). I find it pretty darn hard, and painful, to actually get a striker snap this way. No doubt it happens, but I just find it very hard to replicate in any reasonable way. BB I forgot about this video, but it does happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 People take 80 series 1911's and modify the internals to a series 70 and shoot in USPSA all the time.People pin grip safeties on 2011's all the time. How would this be any different? Really, somebody please explain to me how disabling these two safety mechanisims on other guns is any different than what Cy proposed for discussion here. Some of ya'll are swinging the word safety around like a dead cat over this idea, but I have $20 in my pocket you have NEVER pitched a hissy over either of the above two mods disabling safeties at a match to a MD, and have NEVER disallowed any gun with these two mods to them from a match. They are commonplace in current competition. What was said about people doing either of the above mods in USPSA when they first arrived on scene? For the record, the Glock being half-cocked is highly debatable and Glocks have been ruled a DAO by every set of competition gun rules I've ever read. Secondly, my conpetiton triggers will set every available primer off except CCI's and Military. Hardly what I would consider having to go soft for ignition. Short of a very very high drop, I don't think the trigger safety would even come into play in stopping an AD from dropping the gun even with a competiton trigger. I don't condone making a trigger for Glocks like Cy proposed, but at the same time I can hardly get passionate about how down right dastardly evil this modification would be compared to the two mods above. I also would be very hard pressed to find a rule that would disallow it in the blue book for a Glock Open or Limited gun. Sorry Flex, I read what you posted and the part that would allow the gun to be disallowed by an MD does not apply to a DA gun. I may be mistaken, but it's far from clear cut enough to toss someone's gun, IMO. (flame-suit is coming out for this one...) Holstering an Edge w/o putting the thumb safety on is a DQ for unsafe gun handling (at least is was in the Green book). I guess holstering a Glock w/o a functioning safety would be the same? Eric Good point. In 1911/2011 guns, the thumb safety is considered the primary safety. As far as the arguement of trying to show how the trigger safety has ever stop a discharge, there is no safety that will stop unsafe gun handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Nope, you can holster a DAO or DA/SA loaded without an external safety being engaged. Edge is SA, it's a DQ if you holster a SA or DA/SA gun loaded hammer cocked without the safety on. 10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions: 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. 10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer cocked and the safety not applied. 10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Allen Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 A series 70 with a 2lb trigger and no thumb safety (grip safety pinned)? What if we added a Glock type trigger "lever" safety? What about a series 80 with a 2lb trigger and no thumb safety (grip safety pinned)? Again, what if we added a Glock type trigger "lever" safety? It was always either a light trigger (1911) with a thumb safety or a heavy long pull trigger with no thumb safety (just pull the trigger). Now we are in a new era---light triggers, no thumb safety (just pull the trigger), i.e., Glocks, XDs. What was added-the trigger "lever" "safety" to replace the thumb safety which does not prevent the NDs when holstering or drawing. The cows have left the barn--too late. I would have no problem with a Glock without the "lever safety" provided at least one internal safety is functional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It would still be as safe as a revolver.... Actually it wouldn't, a revolver has a heavier trigger pull and the trigger stroke is longer. Funny.....considering the immense volume of cyberspace that has been utilized at this forum explaining the mechanics behind the 3.25# DA pull which is attained for competition revos using the new cut down hammer (which was also featured here) and lightened mainspring.I assume the range master would spot that and DQ him on sight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo23 Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 The Glock stock trigger safety requires the safety to be almost flush with the pad to release it.You can't release it with a finger tip pull like on a 1911. You have to conciously stick your finger to the middle of the first pad to fire it. With that said, if you holster your weapon with a finger tip on the trigger and the safety not all the way flush, it won't fire. If that is any consolation! I'm sure there are several police officers with holes in their leg who would be willing to debate with you on the effectiveness of the trigger safety in preventing negligent discharges while reholstering a Glock with a finger in the triggerguard. Everyone should go out and TRY to holster their glock at home with a finger on the trigger, to simulate an ND (of course do this with with an unloaded glock). I find it pretty darn hard, and painful, to actually get a striker snap this way. No doubt it happens, but I just find it very hard to replicate in any reasonable way. BB I forgot about this video, but it does happen! I am the only in this room professional enough to WOW..... Nice job dude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It would still be as safe as a revolver.... Exactly How did a revolver get involved in this discussion since the hammer is down and a Glock striker is partially cocked. A Glock is nowhere near "cocked enough" in the trigger forward position for the4 striker to fire a primer. The point is, both guns will fire when the trigger is pulled (accidentally or on purpose) and many revos showing up for competition have pulls as light as many Glocks. So, they certainly are comparable from the standpoint of what separates them from going bang and not going bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It would still be as safe as a revolver.... Exactly How did a revolver get involved in this discussion since the hammer is down and a Glock striker is partially cocked. Revolvers first have to have the hammer cocked or beaten on severely in the case of hammer mounted firing pins. Almost all Glocks with lightened trigger pulls are using more sensitive primers to get 100% reliability so how many people have tested to see if releasing the striker from its at rest position will not set off a primer. I did, albeit not on purpose.... I fitted a new trigger bar which releases the striker about .025" farther forward than the old one did and I got about 50% light strike misfires with my RP striker spring. NO way on earth that thing would fire released from the forward position because it doesn't have enough spring force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If I hand you an Edge with 2lb or less trigger with no thumb safety-would you be comfortable shooting it in competition?The Glock trigger safety doesn't prevent the holstering and drawing NDs-look at the ND's of the Glocks in use in law enforcement now. The PRIMARY safety on a Glock is/was the long and heavy trigger pull. Build a CCF frame Glock, get rid of all the useless "safeties" and slap a 1911 thumb safety on it!! Won't you have to redesign the trigger system and implement a sear to add a thumb safety? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If I hand you an Edge with 2lb or less trigger with no thumb safety-would you be comfortable shooting it in competition? No, absolutely not. I watched one of those fly out of a top shooters holster during the Nationals after it caught on a chair (2x4 lounge). That gun...in my eyes...tumbled through the air in slow motion. Watching it, there were all knds of things for it to bump into that could have bounced a 2lb trigger loose. And, the gallery was completely full of people. I am glad it was during the draw...where the thumb safety was till engaged. That gun had about 20 rounds of 40 in it to add to the weight. The shooter, quick and powerful, launched out of the chair. Lots of energy there. The upside is it probably would only fire once because the slide would short stroke and not load the next round... because nobody holding means the recoil has nothing to resist it and the gun would just spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) Good point. In 1911/2011 guns, the thumb safety is considered the primary safety. And that sucker has a long lever hanging off it working against a very slight detent. Ask how many people who carry 1911's how many times they have looked down at their side and noticed thet safety was in the down position when it was supposed to be UP..... Edited January 21, 2008 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Good point. In 1911/2011 guns, the thumb safety is considered the primary safety. And that sucker has a long lever hanging off it working against a very slight detent. Ask how many people who carry 1911's how many times they have looked down at their side and noticed thet safety was in the down position when it was supposed to be UP..... As long as the RO doesn't catch it or it doesn't go bang, I guess you got away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 (edited) Good point. In 1911/2011 guns, the thumb safety is considered the primary safety. And that sucker has a long lever hanging off it working against a very slight detent. Ask how many people who carry 1911's how many times they have looked down at their side and noticed thet safety was in the down position when it was supposed to be UP..... As long as the RO doesn't catch it or it doesn't go bang, I guess you got away with it. Wasn't me, I was referring to LE and personal carry incidents where the thumb safety accidentally got bumped into the OFF position while riding in the holster. I just wish I had a dollar for every one. They don't necessarily cause an ND, but given that it's the main safety it would scare me. Edited January 22, 2008 by bountyhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmar Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 okay guys....bottom line. my last post on this thread and this is only my .02. the lever safety on an edge 2011 w/ a 1lb. trigger pull....and yes there are a lot of 2011/1911 out there with 1lb. triggers.....will only act as a safety device when holstering or putting the gun on a table......why? bcos what is the 1st thing a 2011/1911 shooter does when he grabs his gun? he disengages the lever safety......right? so if or when the gun flies off his hands after that......what happens? now should we also put "glock-like" trigger safeties on 2011/1911's ??????????????????? andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TannerB Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Sometimes I think mandatory lanyards would be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sslav Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 One thing I've noticed with at least one 'kit', and my own experiments, is that some trigger jobs end up with a trigger safety that works, unless you ride the reset. IOW, rack the slide, like LAMR, and it's fine. Ride the reset, take the finger out of the guard, and...you can still move the trigger back. Not sure how to feel about that. I would go further to say that some trigger mod combinations will not reset to engage the trigger safety even when racking the slide without riding the re-set or at least will not do it consistently. In playing around I have gotten this result and I have ran into someone actually using a glock with this type of trigger at the last match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackBuzzard Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 One thing I've noticed with at least one 'kit', and my own experiments, is that some trigger jobs end up with a trigger safety that works, unless you ride the reset. IOW, rack the slide, like LAMR, and it's fine. Ride the reset, take the finger out of the guard, and...you can still move the trigger back. Not sure how to feel about that. I would go further to say that some trigger mod combinations will not reset to engage the trigger safety even when racking the slide without riding the re-set or at least will not do it consistently. In playing around I have gotten this result and I have ran into someone actually using a glock with this type of trigger at the last match. Guilty as charged here. While most of the time the trigger safety reset on slide rack, upon reload when finger comes off trigger, the expected trigger slack is not there for next shot and first shot off can come prematurely for this reason. So for both equipment consistency and safety I make sure trigger safety functions 100%. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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