eerw Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) 2. I don't think anyone is saying that such a modification would be legal in Production, but several people also shoot Glocks in Limited and Open, where such a modification would be legal. No...I already quoted you the rule. What, so you're saying such a modification wouldn't be legal in Limited and Open? I'm not understanding your point now. primary visible safety..actually the only visible safety. the others are internal..and I think more primary than the trigger block. anyway..opinions notwithstanding..it is the only visible safety.. Edited January 21, 2008 by eerw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) What, so you're saying such a modification wouldn't be legal in Limited and Open? I'm not understanding your point now. I think that Flex is quoting from the 2008 USPSA Rulebook. 8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols: (Page 29)8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. 8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked. 8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D). 8.1.2.4 With respect to Rules 8.1.2.1 and 8.1.2.3, the term “safety” means the primary visible safety lever on the handgun (e.g. the thumb safety on a “1911” genre handgun). In the event of doubt, the Range Master is the final authority on this matter. So if I am reading Flex's reply correctly, what he is trying to say is: It all comes down to figuring out if the Glock is considered a "Single Action" or a "Double Action" pistol. In my opinion if it is to be considered a Single Action this modification (removing the trigger safety) would make it illegal. On the other hand, if it is considered a Double Action, I don't beleive this rule would apply. Being that this is such a gray area it would be left to the Range Master to decide in a case such as this one. So it may be best to avoid any complications and continue to use Glock's original design. If it were single action, no Glock would be allowed in Production; obviously, that's not the case. "selective action" sounds like a DA/SA, like a CZ-75, where you can decock the gun and your first shot can be double action, or you could choose to start cocked and locked. As the Glock has no alternative -action-, I think the Glock would most likely fit under "double action." If so, 8.1.2.4 would not apply. Just to make things interesting, if someone made a whole new trigger that didn't have a safety lever on it, there wouldn't be a "primary visible safety" and 8.1.2.4 would not apply. 8.1.2.4 says that such a safety would have to be engaged, but it doesn't mandate that such a safety has to be present. Still wouldn't be legal in Production since its not an authorized modification, but looks like it would be in Limited and Open. At least, that's my take on things. There have been some rulings made that I don't agree with. Edited January 21, 2008 by mpolans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TannerB Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 This is a great thread, Ive been kinda wondering about this, I modifed my trigger tab where it pulls it back more and I lost this trigger safety. but ive been trying to modify it to make it work still. even though i kinda think its a joke, the only way I can see this safety work is if you drop you gun maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) Yeah, that would suck if you ever drop a gun and it went off becasue you removed a safety device. It would suck even more if got seriously hurt or even killed as a result. I don't think I have been to a match yet where someone hasn't gotten DQ'd for one thing or another, dropping guns included. I have seen 5 guns dropped this past year. Not one of them fired and 2 of the guns were pointing back at the rest of the squad waiting to shoot. Thank God no one messed around with their safety. Sorry to be such an a$$ about this, but I don't think sport is for you if safety is not your #1 concern. Folks, safety is something not to mess around with. Edited January 21, 2008 by HoMiE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) Out of curiosity, has anyone seen a single incident where the trigger's safety lever was instrumental in preventing a discharge? Lots of folks here have mentioned dropped guns, but have not indicated how a simple drop could result in a discharge, much less how the safety lever would prevent a discharge. The *firing pin safety* would prevent a dropped gun from firing, as it blocks the firing pin from inadvertently traveling forward if the nub on the striker slips off the face of trigger bar's sear surface. The trigger safety lever *does not* prevent a dropped gun from firing; straight from Glock's website, "the trigger safety prevents inadvertent firing by lateral forces on the trigger." How often is there a problem where something unintentionally only contacts either the left or right 1/3 of the trigger, without contacting the trigger safety lever, thus preventing discharge? FWIW, Glock's website calls their third safety the "Drop Safety." However, it only describes the interaction of the nose of the trigger bar and the ramp on the connector. Edited January 21, 2008 by mpolans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I don't think you can aruge about safety. Do what you want, is it likely to happen, what if, what if, what if...? It only has to happen once and I hope I am not around when it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I don't think you can aruge about safety. Do what you want, is it likely to happen, what if, what if, what if...?It only has to happen once and I hope I am not around when it does. I'm just trying to get through the hyperbole and see things logically rather than reflexively shouting "safety!" If we don't analyze things logically, we're no better than the anti-gun folks who reflexively shout "safety" and want to ban high cap magazines without analyzing whether they're actually addressing a problem. Can you think of an instance that addresses the question in my previous post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atmar Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 This is a great thread, Ive been kinda wondering about this, I modifed my trigger tab where it pulls it back more and I lost this trigger safety. but ive been trying to modify it to make it work still. even though i kinda think its a joke, the only way I can see this safety work is if you drop you gun maybe? yes...exactly. glock came up with this safety when they dropped the pistol from a helicopter and the gun landed on its ass....and fired. i have no intention of ever dropping my gun from a helicopter.... and im very careful when holstering my gun and drawing it. thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allgoodhits Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Doable.......yes Game related legal......maybe, but probably not, at least possibly an RO perogative. Smart...... NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 This is a great thread, Ive been kinda wondering about this, I modifed my trigger tab where it pulls it back more and I lost this trigger safety. but ive been trying to modify it to make it work still. even though i kinda think its a joke, the only way I can see this safety work is if you drop you gun maybe? Tanner, You may have lost more than that. You have prepositioned your trigger (bar) further to the rear. That means that you have possibly (very likely) defeated the other two safeties as well. They are reliant on the trigger bar not being back too far. YOUR GUN MAY HAVE NO WORKING SAFETIES!!! Further, from another thread, you mentioned having troubles with the gun resetting properly. Hearing that, I feared your gun is/was on the verge of doubling, or even going full-auto on you. The weight of your trigger pull could be the only thing keeping your gun from going off unintentionally. If you have lightened that up, then all it would take for your gun to fire is for the gun to be bumped or jostled enough to jar the gun enough to overcome a few pounds of spring pressure. We aren't even talking about a dropped gun here, it could happen in the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I don't think you can aruge about safety. Do what you want, is it likely to happen, what if, what if, what if...?It only has to happen once and I hope I am not around when it does. I'm just trying to get through the hyperbole and see things logically rather than reflexively shouting "safety!" If we don't analyze things logically, we're no better than the anti-gun folks who reflexively shout "safety" and want to ban high cap magazines without analyzing whether they're actually addressing a problem. Can you think of an instance that addresses the question in my previous post? Obviously if a finger or other object depresses the trigger across it's full width, the Glock will fire. However, if something only grabs a portion of the trigger, or swipes across the side of the trigger, then it's possible that a functioning trigger safety will prevent a discharge. Last but not least, a working trigger safety on a Glock is an indicator that all other safeties have probably reset --- if there's something gumming up the works, and the trigger safety's unoperational, the only way to tell would be to measure the trigger position with a micrometer. I've been shooting the Glock fulltime in competition since 2003. Never the less, when Flex talks about Glocks I start listening...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TannerB Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 This is a great thread, Ive been kinda wondering about this, I modifed my trigger tab where it pulls it back more and I lost this trigger safety. but ive been trying to modify it to make it work still. even though i kinda think its a joke, the only way I can see this safety work is if you drop you gun maybe? Tanner, You may have lost more than that. You have prepositioned your trigger (bar) further to the rear. That means that you have possibly (very likely) defeated the other two safeties as well. They are reliant on the trigger bar not being back too far. YOUR GUN MAY HAVE NO WORKING SAFETIES!!! Further, from another thread, you mentioned having troubles with the gun resetting properly. Hearing that, I feared your gun is/was on the verge of doubling, or even going full-auto on you. The weight of your trigger pull could be the only thing keeping your gun from going off unintentionally. If you have lightened that up, then all it would take for your gun to fire is for the gun to be bumped or jostled enough to jar the gun enough to overcome a few pounds of spring pressure. We aren't even talking about a dropped gun here, it could happen in the holster. Thanks Flex for your concern, I have since pushed it back more where it resets normal now. And I know that the safty plunger is not depressed and is still functional, I think its to hard to type out exactly how I checked it, but I guess you will have to just take my word for it. Thanks though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Is your trigger safety functioning now that you have bent the tab back toward original? (since you said you modified this part...it may still be questionable) Is the left wing of the trigger bar resting on the safety shelf of the trigger/ejector housing? (I'm not trying to bust your balls. I just want you to have a safe gun. I'll PM you my number if you'd like to call me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I would also declare that the offending gun is unsafe. huh?? its not the best idea..and really doesn't buy you anything on a competitive level..but unsafe?? its not inherently less safe than the gun was originally... anyway.. CY..its not going to make things any smoother or faster or more accurate..best to leave that one alone.. It would still be as safe as a revolver.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It would still be as safe as a revolver.... Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Out of curiosity, has anyone seen a single incident where the trigger's safety lever was instrumental in preventing a discharge?Lots of folks here have mentioned dropped guns, but have not indicated how a simple drop could result in a discharge, much less how the safety lever would prevent a discharge. The *firing pin safety* would prevent a dropped gun from firing, as it blocks the firing pin from inadvertently traveling forward if the nub on the striker slips off the face of trigger bar's sear surface. The trigger safety lever *does not* prevent a dropped gun from firing; straight from Glock's website, "the trigger safety prevents inadvertent firing by lateral forces on the trigger." How often is there a problem where something unintentionally only contacts either the left or right 1/3 of the trigger, without contacting the trigger safety lever, thus preventing discharge? Ahhhh... bringing logic, facts and reason into a discussion of the merits of a "trigger safety"? This should be good for a few fireworks. I think it's a fine safety.... as long as no person or thing touches the trigger. Of course, if no person or thing touches the trigger, exactly what do we a safety to save us from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coltgov Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 The Glock stock trigger safety requires the safety to be almost flush with the pad to release it. You can't release it with a finger tip pull like on a 1911. You have to conciously stick your finger to the middle of the first pad to fire it. With that said, if you holster your weapon with a finger tip on the trigger and the safety not all the way flush, it won't fire. If that is any consolation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RePete Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It would still be as safe as a revolver.... Actually it wouldn't, a revolver has a heavier trigger pull and the trigger stroke is longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TannerB Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Thanks Flex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 When you pull a glock trigger the trigger bar goes back a little bit de-activating the firing pin safety and pulls the firing pin back, then down and away as it moves along the disconnector. When you start to mess with the reset by bending the trigger safety spring location you are changing the angle and how much the cruciform engages the sear on the firing pin. By doing so and if you don't check it, you probably disabled the drop safety. Haven't cleaned the gun in a while or put a really light plunger spring in, now the firing pin safety is disabled becasue it sticks or the trigger bar is far enough to engage it. If you don't know what your doing you could put your gun in a dangerous condition as Flexmoney already stated. I don't see the logic in making a safe gun unsafe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 The Glock stock trigger safety requires the safety to be almost flush with the pad to release it.You can't release it with a finger tip pull like on a 1911. You have to conciously stick your finger to the middle of the first pad to fire it. With that said, if you holster your weapon with a finger tip on the trigger and the safety not all the way flush, it won't fire. If that is any consolation! I'm sure there are several police officers with holes in their leg who would be willing to debate with you on the effectiveness of the trigger safety in preventing negligent discharges while reholstering a Glock with a finger in the triggerguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 The best safety feature on any handgun is the one between your ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 It would still be as safe as a revolver.... Exactly How did a revolver get involved in this discussion since the hammer is down and a Glock striker is partially cocked. Revolvers first have to have the hammer cocked or beaten on severely in the case of hammer mounted firing pins. Almost all Glocks with lightened trigger pulls are using more sensitive primers to get 100% reliability so how many people have tested to see if releasing the striker from its at rest position will not set off a primer. Lets give safety its due because I still remember not being able to start a car without the seat belt being fastened, now it just dings. What this is going to start is a new procedure at a chronograph station of hooking something to the trigger of a Glock beside the safety bar to see if the gun fires. If you are willing to take chance of going home without a score that is up to you. Remember seat belts save lives too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Allen Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 (edited) If I hand you an Edge with 2lb or less trigger with no thumb safety-would you be comfortable shooting it in competition? The Glock trigger safety doesn't prevent the holstering and drawing NDs-look at the ND's of the Glocks in use in law enforcement now. The PRIMARY safety on a Glock is/was the long and heavy trigger pull. Build a CCF frame Glock, get rid of all the useless "safeties" and slap a 1911 thumb safety on it!! Edited January 21, 2008 by Woody Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 If I hand you an Edge with 2lb or less trigger with no thumb safety-would you be comfortable shooting it in competition? No, absolutely not. I watched one of those fly out of a top shooters holster during the Nationals after it caught on a chair (2x4 lounge). That gun...in my eyes...tumbled through the air in slow motion. Watching it, there were all knds of things for it to bump into that could have bounced a 2lb trigger loose. And, the gallery was completely full of people. I am glad it was during the draw...where the thumb safety was till engaged. That gun had about 20 rounds of 40 in it to add to the weight. The shooter, quick and powerful, launched out of the chair. Lots of energy there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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