3 Gun/Multi-gun match does and don'ts

[kurtm]

I waited for the last of the matches to finish for the year untill I decided to post this. So many places are starting to 3-gun that I thought I would start with a few ideas and see what others had to add. I am typing this from the match producers point of view and these are the things I have learned over the years of putting on big matches.

Stage design does and don'ts

Never place ANYTHING down range that can't be shot, or use ANYTHING you don't want to see shot or destroyed. It isn't worth D.Q.ing people for hitting something that shouldn't have been there, like a steel post holding baricade walls, cars,props etc. plan on all of it getting shot! It is far better to protect things with a no shoot that to tell people "don't" because it just leads to D.Q.s and hard feelings on the part of the shooters.

Never have a stage that has running for running,s sake. Several matches have had very extended runs from position to position with nothing to do in between. This isn't fun for the shooter no matter what ability, there should be some shooting, or task to perform to break up the monotony of a long run! Also the longer the distance of a stage the longer it will take to reset and to just walk back. The cycle time for just walking back and forth can cause a long stage to back up.

Never design 180 traps, like running in a U or walls set right on the line

Never stage firearms down range a long distance from the start. To place them and then clear them at the end doubles the time it takes to cycle a shooter through.

Never use any surface that is slick or springy as a place to abandon firearms! Use a box or padded bucket, or ground. the tops of ply-wood tables and barrels cause way too much bouncing and droped firearm and D.Q.s needlessly! Plan for hard delivery of the arm and CONTAIN IT!!

Never place two stages so close as to have to shut one down to fix the targets or props on the other. This is a guaranteed way to have to throw out a stage.

If you are using pick up firearms or props make sure you have at least 2 spares. for targets such as steel and plates have at least 25% in reserve!

Always shoot in the stages well before the match and be sure to use at least 3 people of variing ability. Idealy use a lower level shooter, a midrange and a hotdog. that way you know the gamer aspects as well as the survival aspect and can make changes accordingly.

Always brief your R.O.s and make sure they are ALL on the same page. Just because someone is a CRO rated USPSA maven doesn't mean he is going to see thing like you want unless you tell him. A great example is USPSA has foot fault and RM3G doesnt. ALL the R.O.s must be consistent from stage to stage, and they shouldn't be requiered to be mind readers.

Always allow for time between stages so the shooter can prepair for the next stage! ( hour on and hour of is not a bad schedule, but can be varried )

Targets, and props!

Never paint long range rifle targets white, this color just plain disapears in many lighting conditions. Black with a white background is the best! Barring that, flourecent orange, green or blue are better than white by far. Always paint steel between squads! and let iron sight and non magnified optics shoot first.

Stars, drop turners, swingers etc. will always add 30% to your reset time so engage them first, so they can be reset as the shooter finishes.

Flying targets should ALWAYS be treated as disappearing targets, penalize the "non attempt" not the miss. You must always brief the shooters on the reset of any "new" type of target, and which way clays are placed on flippers!

Always plan for weather and use steel as much as possible.

Knock down targets are much better than anyother type even for long range rifle as long as you have a way to reset. This alleviates the friction between the R.O. calling hits and the shooter.

Feel free to chim in! and add to the list and we can all help make 3-gun better. Kurt Miller

[Scout454]

It sure would be nice if there to have a set of rules that every match followed. Six or eight different "modified IMGA rules" is a PITA. It's winter time, lets get the match directors together and come up with a set of rules we all can follow for next year - and get them out so that the USPSA CRO's and the IDPA SO's know ahead of time that this is a vastly different sport and that they can not use USPSA and IDPA rulebooks.

[Merlin Orr]

Listen to the voice of experience!!!!

I REALLY like this one...

Never use any surface that is slick or springy as a place to abandon firearms! Use a box or padded bucket, or ground. the tops of ply-wood tables and barrels cause way too much bouncing and dropped firearm and D.Q.s needlessly! Plan for hard delivery of the arm and CONTAIN IT!!

Excellent.

[mwx40x40]

All I have to say is that you (Kurt) have pretty much hit the nail on the head.. I agree with you 110%.

I think I will run a copy of your post and keep it as a checklist to use even for our little local matches.

Great obervations.

Mark

[gunny]

Have your scoring/stats system well rehearsed and efficient. Have a back up computer or three. No reason in this day and age to not have the match scored an hour after the last stage is shot. Don't change the scoring system in the middle of the match or screw up the scores. You can run a cheesy match and people will come back but if you screw up the scores you have committed the unpardonable sin.

Keep the RO’ing consistent from stage to stage. Don’t make the stages overly complex. Don't put a 200 pound dummy on the stage that has to be moved from point A to point B, its too hard on the Juniors, Ladies, and Seniors. Keep water on the stages in hot weather. Try to have a vendor with food at the match. Be prepared for inclement weather.

Make it a real 3Gun match, multiple guns on multiple stages!

[ccur]

have short people and tall people proof the stages..it stinks to have to get on and off of a milk crate (trip hazard) to shoot a stage...AND..the time it takes to do so will change the competition....

same goes for things that tall shooters can shoot over, but can't be seen by others...

Cheryl

[busyhawk]

Kurt,

Love the notes, great thought and observations. You my friend have a keen eye.

Could you please shed light on the following...

Statement: Never stage firearms down range a long distance from the start.

Observation: Never is a very long time...I believe one should be pudent on use of this technique however, I believe it will only narrow/limit the options to construct a stage. We are working with 3 guns which can take up bit of distance sometimes. At the 2007 RM3G the whole squad during the walk through had to pre-stage thier shotgun down range prior to the first shooter shooting. Saved a lot of time and solved the problem I believe. Great job by the crew down there.

Statement: Stars, drop turners, swingers etc. will always add 30% to your reset time so engage them first, so they can be reset as the shooter finishes.

Observation: Does this mean someone is resetting the props prior to the RO scoring the targets...I guess I don't understand this one.

Statement: Flying targets should ALWAYS be treated as disappearing targets, penalize the "non attempt" not the miss.

Observation: Are we not trying to reward hitting a target? Is that not the goal of our sport? The way you make it sound there should be no flying targets (perhaps that is the point?). With DPMS and MGM having trap type targets that are very challanging to hit should we not reward such success if the shooter has obtained the skill to hit it? They throw the targets at a time interval and if we only have to enguage them and there are 10 targets at 3 seconds apart then if I just blast 10 shoots as fast as I can I will gain at least 25 seconds. I do understand the inconsistancy of some popper activated clays and don't like them much.

Statement: Knock down targets are much better than anyother type even for long range rifle as long as you have a way to reset.

Observation: Although I agree...I have not seen successful resetting Knock Over/down targets at 100 yard plus which is the minimum recomended distance from steel target manufactures. With the resetting targets out there I believe most of the time we need to get a consistance RO watching the targets to give a fair call. Of course we also have shooters trying to shoot a resetting target at 300 yards with a 48-55 grain bullet and then they wonder why the RO can't can't see the flash of the target. Watching a resetting target with the naked eye at 250 yards is a bit of a stretch at best for some of us old folks. This statement is almost contradicting to the Star, Drop turner,Swingers statement above.

Scott Hawkins

[kurtm]

Mr. Hawkins:

First I would like to thank you for all your hard work producing and R.O.ing large matches. We would never have 3-gun matches with out it!

First, the stage you refer to at RM3G wa up Negro Canyon (a shotgun rifle stage) and had the competitor stage their RIFLE down range. Since one of my friends was running the stage I happen to know it was the one that backed up the worst! If it hadn't been for J.J. using my brothers old formula of an hour on and an hour off format along with an over all time limit for the stage, Shooters would have been parked there MUCH longer than they were! The staging requiered the shooter on deck to walk about 100 yards up and down hill, following the R.O. and shooter so he could stage his rifle AFTER the shooter finished ( this part will answer your second question ), and while the shooter abandoned his shotgun and ran up the hill to his rifle the stage was being reset (for the shotgun targets) by the rest of the squad, so the stage HAD been scored AND reset before the rifle portion was completed. The time was chewed up in having to walk back 100 yards let the shooter have a bit of a break after his 200 yard long stroll ( up and back) and then charge his shotgun to go play. Was it a fun stage?? Darn right! Did it cause problems by backing up? Darn right! Should it have been there, yes, but if they had had one more stage like it we would all still be shooting it! This falls into the FUN STAGE/DANGEROUS FOR THE MATCH type of design. No right, no wrong just be warry of it!

Your second one I hope was answered above, but I will elaborate a bit more for you. The scorer can and does do a vast majority of the scoring while the shooter is still shooting and the R.O. is watching the shooter. With IMGA rules it is either neutralized or not! The steel is either down or it is not! This has been done at ALL the big NON USPSA matches, if one is in question just place a guy near the target and DON'T tape it so the shooter can see it and drive on! The only targets left to score should be the last ones engaged by the shooter before his is cleared! If you have all your hard to reset targets at the first part of your linear stage thety can be scored and reset while the shooter is well down range of the reset! Since you work these big matches I know you have seen this before.

I said penalize the NON ATTEMPT, not the miss. The wording should be WHILE THE TARGET IS IN THE AIR! If you rattled of all 10 you would recieve 9 failures to engage. The reason I say this is that ANY flying target is to capricious in the way they fly to penalise misses. At one large match the first day was very calm and the flying target behaved as predicted, the next day the wind was so bad that the targets were being blown right over the top of the shooter so fast you would have to have been a world class Skeet shooter to hit half of them, and I only know one 3-gunner that is in that class, Mike Pinto. You would have had to break the 180 to engage them. So the people the first day posted very credible scores while most all the shooters the next day ZEROED the stage! I like to treat flying targets as a bonus, but if you don't try to hit them IN THE AIR it is a penalty, this allows for skill being rewarded and still forces the intent of the stage with out NEEDLESS ZEROING of the stage due to Weather. Is this the only way to do it?? NO! Is this the way to make most shooters, ( YOUR CUSTOMER ) happy yes! REMEMBER anything that flys will NOT be the same for all shooters EVER...and that IS a long time

Knock down target are far supperior to any R.O./Shooter interface! I can't tell you the number of times, I have seen a shooter tell the R.O. the order in which he will engage a Flash target and then start on a different one. While the R.O. is looking through his binoculars he sees nothing while the shooter is getting steamed by no hit call. I have many times "programed" a R.O. into calling hits when in fact it was a miss, just hit about 5 in a row fast and on the 6th shot he will almost always call hit, because he doesn't want to slow you down and HE EXPECTS IT! The R.O. might have to swallow, cough, blink, clear dust from his eyes...ETC. I am sure that as an R.O. you have had these same problems. The only cure is to have deticated staff down range in a protected area to reset FALLING targets. It isn't great, but it is SURE!! Can it be done all the time? NO! LaRue targets almost always work, but they have to be set very level. I know of no target system that will work as of yet, but if you can figure a way to have falling plates it is vastly superior to Flashers!

A quick side note: 55 grain bullets will easily show a flash on an MGM flash target as well as R&R flash targets out to 400 yds. as well as knock down a LaRue, or falling plate. These targets were designed with this in mind. Yes you need a good R.O. to "see" the hit on a flash target, but if it falls there is NO QUESTION! Kurt Miller

[Carlos]

It sure would be nice if there to have a set of rules that every match followed. Six or eight different "modified IMGA rules" is a PITA. It's winter time, lets get the match directors together and come up with a set of rules we all can follow for next year - and get them out so that the USPSA CRO's and the IDPA SO's know ahead of time that this is a vastly different sport and that they can not use USPSA and IDPA rulebooks.

Agree 100%. What is with some matches that allow .30 cal but then try to ban the 7.62x39? What about those that let semi-auto shotguns in heavy metal? And speaking of heavy metal, it should be .45 cal - but some claim .40 should be allowed (it shouldn't) - nor should Heavy Metal allow Tactical scopes on the rifle. But heavy metal should NOT require SS rules for the handgun; the limit is supposed to be 10, not 8.

We need a single set of rules. Anyone want to propse "model rules" & get all the big shoots to adopt them?

[kurtm]

Although I "feel your pain" about the rules, this is really about stage design, targets to use, and making a match run smoothly. We could all agree on one set of rules, but if the above is not heeded it can be a disaster of a match! KurtM

[bigbrowndog]

Ah the rambling talk that takes place on a 2800 mile drive..................Kurt and I, along with Bronco had a very nice discussion about this on our drive to and from AMU 3Gun. I would like to add, and reiterate some of the thoughts.

This years DQ list read like a who's who list of competitiors, starting at SMM3G and ending at AMU3G. What it shows is that ANYBODY can get DQ'd.

Painting long range targets between squads is not only welcome, but also gives every squad the same target presentation and condition, not just the first one to shot that stage.

The targets on stage 1, of AMU3G were the best target presentations I've seen all year.

On the subject of 180 traps, I don't feel that stages are designed intentionally with them, however by placing a noshoot on the 180 line a stage designer can help alleviate the tendency for a shooter to want to shoot a target too close to the DQ line.

When using a shotgun in a match, the shooter should be expected to have to perform a reload, more than just once. Reloading the shotgun IS the skill set required to separate the shooters.

Use of RO's that are not comfortable with the level of "hi speed" gun handling that takes place, should not be placed in a position to cause stages to not be run efficiently, or to cause inconsistent stage procedures and rule interpretations.

Duplication of stages from one match to another should be avoided.

Use of paper for rifle at distances further than 75yds should be avoided.

Making shots difficult simply because the course designer can make then, is not the way to design a stage. When this happens shooters tend to get upset when someone "games" the stage by taking the penalties and not effectively engaging the targets. Simply make the targets worth engaging, and you won't have to have unreasonable penalties for misses. The good shooters will hit them faster, and the others will be able to hit them.

Effectively describe what shooters can expect when shooting your match, don't expect everyone to simply KNOW, based on past matches. Nobody appreciates unpleasant surprises.

There were lots of other things discussed in that Suburban, it was a long drive. They just don't fall into this topic.

2007 has been a great year for 3gun/multigun, I hope 2008 is even better.

Trapr

[chendersby]

have short people and tall people proof the stages..it stinks to have to get on and off of a milk crate (trip hazard) to shoot a stage...AND..the time it takes to do so will change the competition....

same goes for things that tall shooters can shoot over, but can't be seen by others...

Cheryl

Come on Cheryl, I need all the shoot overs I can get to make up for all the low ports I have to deal with

By the way, Kurt, great ideas and advice.

[Paule]

Lots of great ideas. Thanks, Kurt, for broaching the subject. I would offer a few thoughts.

First, multigun stages are fun when sprinkled through a match, but a steady diet can slow matches to a crawl and the chances for DQs seem to go up exponentially. Requiring that a single gun be unloaded at start tests gun handling skills under stress and removes the chance to DQ for a safety that gets bumped throwing down a perfectly good gun, or a gun that bounces out of position. (Who really does that, anyway? You never know when you might find a full mag for it).

Second, novelty guns can add a bit of fun to any stage, but think about whether they need to be on the clock, or off. Depending on the condition and reliability of the loudenboomer in question, either may be appropriate, but don't randomly penalize shooters by making them shoot an unfamiliar weapon that has seen it's best days. Off the clock it's an exciting way to start a stage. On the clock it's a crap shoot where snake eyes comes up all too often. By example, the machine gun nest at RM3G a few years ago was plagued by malfunctions that had material effect on many scores, and slowed the stage dramatically. Shooting it off the clock and starting the timer when that part was done or when the MG broke would have been more fair to shooters and much faster for the match as a whole. On the flip side, Stage 1 at Ft Benning was a template for how to use a fun gun as part of the timed portion of a stage. Read the wind, center the scope and squeeze. Do that correctly and you are off to the rest of the stage.

Third, my two cents on longer range rifle targets and difficulties scoring them. I love rifle stages, the more shots required the happier I am. But having a dozen or more targets scattered downrange makes verifying hits difficult. Short of an electronic target system that would give an audible signal to the shooter and a visual to the RO when a target is hit, less targets is the only good alternative. Having three or four targets that are shot from multiple locations is a great way to boost target counts and provides a better way of scoring them than requiring the shooter to outline a target shooting order and then try to remember it when the buzzer goes off. With only a few targets, it should be possible to assign each target to a spotter. Spotters would watch their target only and call hits as they see them, also tracking the number of times hit at each shooter position. This way the shooter can engage in any order and should get more consistent calls of hits. Additionally, the RO can concentrate more on the shooter as he/she moves through the various shooting positions.

[Bronco]

One of the main concerns voiced on the ride home by the "iron sight shooters" was long range target presentation. Any time you have white targets on a light or gray background they disappear for the iron shooters, especially when the sun gets behind them. This can be attenuated by color of target and putting up a contrasting background. I shoot a scope so not as big an issue but I have seen instances where it affected the performance of the shooter and outcome of the match.

We also discussed the idea of using self resetting steal for long pistol shots. It has the benefit of faster scoring and reset time, shooter knowing they have hit the target, and less RO fatigue. RM3G has done this in the past.

Having consistant ROing is one of the hardest things to attain in any match but particularly in IMGA matches. Most of the RO staff have a background in USPSA, IDPA or even NRA Action. They bring with them "baggage" from their experence and training that does not apply in IMGA. They read into a stage description or create penalties that are not there. You will never have perfect officiating, humans are involved after all, but a good reminder to the staff that these are the rules for this match don't try to add your own would be prudent.

Would like to add that the 2800 mile ride was enjoyable and my laughing muscles are still sore. Keith

[M ammo]

I do agree on long range targets. MGM’s are great but the Ro calling the hits can be iffy

At the nationals day one I saw Taran Butler hit one of the Hangers 3 times before the RO called it. He got a re-shoot and I agree with that but that stage was backed up badly.

I was the last shooter of the day, I waited 3 hours+

Painting them either keep them painted or don’t paint them at all.

Balancing out the stages so that the match flows is and art.

Jim M ammo

[J-Ho]

On long range steel:

Anybody know the name of the flashers that were used at the Johnson 3 gun? There was a little motion sensor on the back of the target and when hit it flashed a strobe light. These things looked very promising. I'd set a speaker next to the shooter that would give audible feedback. Since I shot irons I had no problem seeing the flash but it might be different using a scope since the strobe was several feet from the target.

[Blockhead]

RO interaction with the shooter on rifle stages is a tough issue. I know there have been times I've mis-called shots both ways just as Kurt described. It's iritating and confusing when you're hitting a target over and over while the RO is calling "Miss" or worse yet "You're hitting the guard plate" when he can hear the hits but can't see them because he's looking at the wrong target.

I like Kurt's suggestion. We need a better mouse-trap for long range targets. I saw something last night on Shooting USA's coverage of the Masters at Pasa Park that looked interesting. One of the phases of the competition was Olympic style rimfire against a plate rack with red indicator plates that rose up and covered the target when hit. I don't know how that mechanism works but I gotta wonder if it could be adapted to long range rifle.

This is a great thread!!

[jbullgpd]

I know there was a guy out of Tucson that was making long range target stand where there were i believe three knock down steel and then one resetting target. So you dont have to go down range to reset them, and you know when you hit them all cause they disappear and once you hit the fourth one it resets the whole stack. I dont know how they hold up over time and if he ever got the idea off the ground but the one time I shot them they worked great. They were out at like 200 and 300 yards and we didnt have to go down once to reset them or score, made the stage move quick. It was at the Tucson Police and Fire Games a few years back at I believe the Pima Pistol Club.

[Tom Freeman]

I know there was a guy out of Tucson that was making long range target stand

Those are made by Tombstone Target. Fine if everyone is shooting a 223. Toss in a 308 or an AK and you can have problems. Ask me how I know...

[kellyn]

Another observation about medium to long range rifle. The reactive targets should not be placed too close together. When a good shooter is shooting prone or off a rest, he can shoot and transition between the targets faster than the RO can call hits. This is not the ROs fault as they must react to the targets shot at whereas the shooter is already off to the next target. CMMG had this issue on one stage - the one with the couch but they are certainly not the only one. I shot one stage at local match where all the steel was set very close and we were shooting prone at about 100 yards. The ROs simply could not keep up with the better shooters.

Stage 1 at the Ft. Benning 3 gun should become the model of rifle target presentation for all 3 gun matches!

As for flying clay, I'm on the fence as to whether they should be required targets, disappearing targets, bonus targets etc. Our launching systems (poppers in particular) are inconsistent which favors making them disappearing targets. But the idea that flying clay targets cannot be scored flies in the face (pun intended) of ALL the other shotgun sports. They are certainly able to score skeet, trap, and sporting clays! I, for one, would like to see more sporting clays style shooting in 3 gun to really push the shotgun shooting to beyond who reloads the fastest (Kurt !!!) to become a real test of shotgun shooting.

[kurtm]

Many a static clay has been neutralised/broken by ONE majic BB, HOW can a flipper whose clay is spinning on all axis that recieves the "goldedn BB" be seen? The scoring is inconsistent due to the target spinning and then breaking on impact with the ground so it can not be verified. Flying targets are a bit easier as they have a tendency to come apart with a few pellets, but I have seen the "golden BB" effect on these as well. Now I do agree wiht Kelly that it should be more about the shooting, but since our sport is more "practical" based and I can only thinnk of one instance where "birds" attacked ( Thanks Alfred!) I think it should be forced more along the lines of the IPSC matches abroad! KURTM

[bigbrowndog]

On scoring flying clays, The STC uses many scorers for targets, on one stage there are no fewer than 3, sometimes as many as 5. this does not include the RO, the scorekeeper, and assistant, just people to keep count of the flying clays. We simply don't have that kind of manpower for stages. I do feel that we could adopt something similar though, it will simply take time and some getting used to, and probably much hair pulling and whining.

Trapr

[M118LR]

Kurt and everyone, a lot of good ideas. Lets hope that some of the match directors take these ideas and run with them.

This years DQ list read like a who's who list of competitiors, starting at SMM3G and ending at AMU3G. What it shows is that ANYBODY can get DQ'd.

+1. I know a few of them.

[Scout454]

I think a number of the DQ's could have been avoided with a staff walk through conducted by the RM and the AMU staff - particularly on stages 7 and 8. Ft. Benning is the only major match that I've worked where this was not done.

[bigbrowndog]

Mike, stage 7 DQ'd people for obvious safety violations an RO/Staff walkthrough would not have changed anything.

Sorry its a bit off topic.

Trapr