From Box A, engage T1-T4 only . . .

[RickB]

At a club match yesterday, we had a standards syle stage. Three shooting boxes, in line, at 40 yds, 25 yds, and 10 yds from the rear berm. There was no specified "shooting area", and no references in the stage briefing to shooting anything from anywhere but the boxes. I'm not going to reproduce the whole stage briefing, as it's really only the wording that interests me. Start position was standing in Box A. It said, "From box A (40) engage T1-T4 only, from Box B (25) engage T5-T8 only, and from Box C (10) engage T9-T12 only." There was a lot of discussion about make-up shots, and from where they could be taken, etc. By my reading, the shooter could shoot anything, from anywhere, as long as they were not in a Box.

At the time, I think the wrong interpretation was made, allowing people to shoot any target they wanted from any box, as long as the specified targets were "engaged" from the appropriate box; with all shots to be fired from the boxes ("intent" rearing its ugly head?). In retrospect, I think that's wrong, and instead, the shooter should have been allowed to engage any target they wanted, as long as they weren't in a box; if in a box, they were limited to engaging only the four targets specified for that box. Shooters should have been allowed to charge the targets, shoot everything from the 40yd line, whatever, as long as they weren't in a box when they shot.

What say you?

Edited November 5, 2007 by RickB

[HoMiE]

I would not considered that a "Standards" style stage.

1.2.2.1 "Standard Exercises" must not require more than 24 rounds

to complete. Component strings must not require more than

6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

Would of solved a lot of problems if they put shots may only be fired from shooting boxes at respective targets since WSB said T1-T4 only, etc.

Edited November 5, 2007 by HoMiE

[racerba]

First of all, this is a standard, not a free-style course of fire. The shooting area ARE the boxes - as specified in the WSB!!!

Secondly, it's probably Virginia count, so after following the course description, you would receive penalties for shots fired above and beyond the required number of shots, and penalties for extra hits (if any).

Edited November 5, 2007 by racerba

[Matt P.]

"From box A (40) engage T1-T4 only, from Box B (25) engage T5-T8 only, and from Box C (10) engage T9-T12 only."

This pretty much tells me what to shoot and from where, including the make shots.

Am I missing something?

[SteveZ]

a few minor data points...its not a true standards because standards require more than one string...and this stage didn't have that....it also had steel on it (which prevents Virginia count). Don't get hung up on the "standards style" comment. It as just your typical club match stage trying to get the shooter to engage targets from particular shooting boxes....its just that the WSB was confusing and opened up the option of re-engagement.

Continue on.......

[HoMiE]

First of all, this is a standard, not a free-style course of fire. The shooting area ARE the boxes - as specified in the WSB!!!

Secondly, it's probably Virginia count, so after following the course description, you would receive penalties for shots fired above and beyond the required number of shots, and penalties for extra hits (if any).

This is not a standard exercise becasue you cannot fire more than 6 round in a string (max 12 if manadatory reload specified). His description did not say it was more than onoe string of fire. It would be a long-course since it is more than 16 rounds but less than 24, but they are using the Level I exemption of specifying what the shooting positions are. He did not say it was virginia count and he was talking about make-up shots so it could have only been comstock scoring, since he did not mention any par time for a fixed time stage.

[HoMiE]

a few minor data points...its not a true standards because standards require more than one string...and this stage didn't have that....it also had steel on it (which prevents Virginia count). Don't get hung up on the "standards style" comment. It as just your typical club match stage trying to get the shooter to engage targets from particular shooting boxes....its just that the WSB was confusing and opened up the option of re-engagement.

Continue on....

If there was steel, where did the WSB say you may engage steel from? If you want shooters to shot it a certain way, set up the course that way or make it prefectly clear where shots can be fired at what targets. I think the key word is ONLY.

[Flexmoney]

I moved this to the rules section, as this is where we have always talked about the rules aspects of various stages. (I assume we are talking about an USPSA match?)

[AZ38super]

There seems to be bits missing if there was stell and you didn't say what the WSB said as to engage it but based on this part;

From box A (40) engage T1-T4 only, - means can only be shot from box A including make ups or it is a penalty

from Box B (25) engage T5-T8 only, - means can only be shot from box B including make ups or it is a penalty

and from Box C (10) engage T9-T12 only - means can only be shot from box C including make ups or it is a penalty

that much is pretty clear and any thought otherwise is creating your own WSB on the fly

[SteveZ]

Ok..for the sake of this discussion....pretend I didn't say anything about steel on the stage (note: there was steel on the stage and the only reason I brought that up was to curtail any discussions about "virgina count" or Standard, etc. RickB was trying to make things easy for the discussion to limiting it to "paper targets". This was a comstock COF using boxes at a level I club match to try and make up for the lack of walls/props to restrict shooting views.)

Sidenote: around these parts the use of ONLY in WSB are used with care. If you have a target T1 and you wish to restrict ALL engagement of that target from Box A, then the WSB might read something like "engage only T1 from box A only" (note the use of double only's).

However if you have a starting box and you want the shooter to engage a group of targets from that box (and no others from that box) but wish to allow the shooter the option to later reengage a group of targets...the WSB might read something like "engage T1 - T4 only from Box A, engage remaining targets as visible" This means that you shoot only T1-T4 from Box A (don't even think about engaging T5 from Box A) and then step out of Box A and engage the remaining targets as visible. Since you've already complied with the WSB of engaging T1-T4 from Box A, you may re-engage them unless the WSB tells you that you can't (T1-T4 may not be engaged outside of Box A, etc). The use of ONLY/ONLY prevents the "conditional" comments in the WSB if you really wish to restrict all engagement of a particular group of targets from a specific position.

[AZ38super]

Sounds to me like you people like to play a wording game over the WSB to fit whatever you want.

If a WSB states something like From box A (40) engage T1-T4 only then that means that is the only place it can be engaged and in other words it cannot be shot from any other point of the course of fire without a penalty.

We have people that like to play that game around here once in a while and we just make sure it is all covered in the WSB, dot the i's and cross the t's so that it is clear what is required.

[ima45dv8]

At a club match yesterday, we had a standards syle stage. Three shooting boxes, in line, at 40 yds, 25 yds, and 10 yds from the rear berm. There was no specified "shooting area", and no references in the stage briefing to shooting anything from anywhere but the boxes. I'm not going to reproduce the whole stage briefing, as it's really only the wording that interests me. Start position was standing in Box A. It said, "From box A (40) engage T1-T4 only, from Box B (25) engage T5-T8 only, and from Box C (10) engage T9-T12 only." There was a lot of discussion about make-up shots, and from where they could be taken, etc. By my reading, the shooter could shoot anything, from anywhere, as long as they were not in a Box.

At the time, I think the wrong interpretation was made, allowing people to shoot any target they wanted from any box, as long as the specified targets were "engaged" from the appropriate box; with all shots to be fired from the boxes ("intent" rearing its ugly head?). In retrospect, I think that's wrong, and instead, the shooter should have been allowed to engage any target they wanted, as long as they weren't in a box; if in a box, they were limited to engaging only the four targets specified for that box. Shooters should have been allowed to charge the targets, shoot everything from the 40yd line, whatever, as long as they weren't in a box when they shot.

What say you?

You said it's was a local club match, so it seems safe to assume it was a Level I match:

US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the

freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

This allows a stage designer to impede on the freestyle aspect of our sport by stating what must be shot from where. Since it said, "From box A engage T1-T4 only....." (and so on) it's legal, and at least to me, very clear. Go to box A and engage 1-4, go to box B and engage 5-8, then go to box C and engage 9-12. As Bob said, the boxes are the shooting areas, so no engaging targets while not in a box. Make up shots would mean returning to the appropriate box or penalties would apply.

[RickB]

Sounds to me like you people like to play a wording game over the WSB to fit whatever you want.

We have people that like to play that game around here once in a while and we just make sure it is all covered in the WSB, dot the i's and cross the t's so that it is clear what is required.

Around here, we play that game every weekend, on almost every stage. The WSB is a word game! "From Box A engage only T1-T4" has a completely different meaning than

"Engage T1-T4 from box A only". And, "from Box A only, engage T1-T4 only", has a different meaning still. If the stage designer gets it wrong, "intent" goes right out the window. I suspect the third quote is what the designer intended, but since we got the first one instead, is it a different stage than intended?

Edited November 5, 2007 by RickB

[Flexmoney]

Time after time we see threads like this one show up.

The repeating theme is that the stage designers got away from freestyle, and didn't get the wording in the procedure written in a manner that was crystal clear to everyone.

The proper thing for a shooter to do in this instance is to get with the Range Master, Match Director, and the Stage Designer...before a bunch of competitors shoot the stage.

[racerba]

Stop playing word games at level I matches. The stage designers did not or does not have time to fail safe every possible interpretation of the WSB. Even at higher level matches, every possible interpretations are not always thought of. If you have a question, ask the match director and/or the stage designer. He/she will tell you whether you can do it or not and should add an addendum to the WSB as necessary in order for all shooters to have the same challenge.

edit to add:

Flex beat me to the punch.

Edited November 5, 2007 by racerba

[Micah]

I'm a gamey kinda shooter (joke there somewhere ) but would have interpreted the WSB as saying that the specified targets can only be engaged from the specified and corresponding boxes. If someone really wanted to make up shots, they'd need to get back inside the appropriate box.

It's an easy mistake to make in Level 1 stage design. Lord knows the holes that shooters have poked through some of my stages.

[uscbigdawg]

It's straight forward, but there are people that will always try to tweak what the stage designers say to get some kind of stupid advantage. Yeah, the stage designer could have built a gigantic wall system of ports and put up vision barriers and no-shoots (ports in walls = boxes on the ground) but it's a club match and for the sake of simplicity probably went with boxes and relied on a little integrity from fellow shooters. Of course, we have had issues in this sport where shooters complained about RO's shooting a major match on non-published days (hence why we have to publish those extra days now), but I digress.

Frankly, if there was ANY question, y'all should have gone to the stage designer, MD or RM for clarification. Not doing show only further shows an intent to just torch stages simply because there's an opportunity to do so. That's one way we lose people in this sport in my view.

Now, can we bring standards back to the Nationals?

Rich

[ima45dv8]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is IF someone shot all of the targets from outside the boxes, they would not have satisfied the requirements of the WSB and would be subject to penalties. A strong arguement could be made in favor of "significant advantage" with per-shot penalties. The WSB didn't just limit what could be engaged from a particular box, it stated as a task that they had to be engaged from the boxes. Food for thought...

[Flexmoney]

I believe the stage needed further wording...along the lines of using two "only's" to be proper. fwiw.

And, I'd game the crap out of it...even if my mother desinged it.

But, if I'm in the first squad through the stage...the right thing to do is to let the staff know that there is a hole in the stage.

[Crusher]

fwiw THERE ARE only THREE types of "courses" in USPSA/IPSC

Short

Medium

Long

Within those THREE there are, and are NOT, permited "proceedures". With the new rules coming out in 1/08 the "permited" proceedure are more defined as well as the Level 1 exemption that seams to be a "blanket" catch all for violating course design rules by level 1 matches/clubs.

1.2 Types of Courses

IPSC matches may contain the following types of courses of fire:

1.2.1 General Courses of Fire:

1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 9 rounds to

complete and no more than 2 shooting locations.

1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to

complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course

design and construction must not require more than 9 scoring

hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor

to eliminate a location or view in the course of fire

by shooting all available targets at an earlier location or

view.

1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” must not require more than 32 rounds to

complete. Course design and construction must not require

more than 9 scoring hits from any single location or view,

nor allow a competitor to eliminate a location or view in the

course of fire by shooting all available targets at an earlier

location or view.

1.2.1.4 The recommended balance for an IPSC match is a ratio of

3 Short Courses to 2 Medium Courses to 1 Long Course.

1.2.2 Special Courses of Fire:

1.2.2.1 “Standard Exercises” must not require more than 24 rounds

to complete. Component strings must not require more than

6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

1.2.2.2 Not applicable.

1.2.2.3 “Classifiers” – Courses of fire published by a Regional

Directorate and/or IPSC, which are available to competitors

seeking a regional and/or international classification.

Classifiers must be set-up in accordance with these rules

and be conducted strictly in accordance with the notes and

diagrams accompanying them. Results must be submitted

to the publishing entity in the format required (with the

applicable fees, if any), in order for them to be recognized.

[SteveZ]

I think the intent (had to get that word in there) of this thread is to show that some standarized meaning of terms should be adopted that would be "gamer proof" and could be used at the local and national level. Sure the Match Director could have been consulted (we all know that) but what happens if the last squad of the day happens upon this and none of the prior squads bothered to call the MD for his interpretation.....maybe the other squads game it...maybe they didn't...who knows....stage inconsistancy is what you're left with.

It pretty clear here that there isn't a clear concensus of what "from Box A only engage Tx...from Box B only engage Ty...from Box C only engage Tz" really means....can you re-engage targets? If you can..where can you re-engage them from? To say that the course designers are too busy/lazy to write a good WSB and that we should just follow their "intent" is a cop-out. The game is freestyle and its our job to figure out what the best way to shoot it is while following the rules. If we had some standard guidelines (perhaps set down by the NROI) to follow, then it would be clear what the stage designer wanted and you wouldn't have to bother going to the MD to get his interpretation of what he thinks the stage designer intended. In the mean time its up to the course designer to SAY what they want....like using phrases such as "only engage Tx only from Box A" or "engage targets from Boxes ONLY" or "Tx may not be re-engaged outside of Box A", etc.

[benny hill]

I think the KEY word here is ONLY. That means nothing else.

[richardschennberg]

The wording appears clear, but if you must make it more obvious, add:

"There is one procedural penalty per shot fired at a target from outside the specified shooting box."

Richard

[SA Friday]

The wording appears clear, but if you must make it more obvious, add:

"There is one procedural penalty per shot fired at a target from outside the specified shooting box."

Richard

I also agree that the above is much more clearer than playing word games with adding and moving "only" around. Hell, I read all three of the previously mentioned possible rewrites, and they still all say this array from this box and never clarify on possible unknown scenarios and how to deal with them. In all three of the "only" rewrites I would still assume any shot at an array outside the specified shooting box would be a procedural. Guess I'm not much of a gamer.

[Punkin Chunker]

The wording appears clear, but if you must make it more obvious, add:

"There is one procedural penalty per shot fired at a target from outside the specified shooting box."

Richard

I also agree that the above is much more clearer than playing word games with adding and moving "only" around. Hell, I read all three of the previously mentioned possible rewrites, and they still all say this array from this box and never clarify on possible unknown scenarios and how to deal with them. In all three of the "only" rewrites I would still assume any shot at an array outside the specified shooting box would be a procedural. Guess I'm not much of a gamer.

Ah fer cryin' out loud. . . .

At a level I, local club-type match, this stage was likely to have been designed on the fly, the WSB written in pencil, squeezed in above a rough sketch of an idea for a stage, by someone who is neither an English major nor a Certified Range Lawyer (CRL), when they needed to come up with one more stage to round out the match, and had limited time and resources to make it happen.

Under these circumstances, if the intent is clear, give the designer a break and don't game the darned thing, unless you're willing to come back for the next match and design (and set up) your own Gamer-Impervious Stage (GIS).