From Box A, engage T1-T4 only . . .

[RickB]

Actually, 99% the discussion was over pizza and beer, an hour after the match, as opposed to holding up the proceedings on the range. I am really surprised by the general, "Aw, come on!" tone to a lot of the replies; shooters really don't look critically at each and every WSB, to find something - a word, a loophole - that can be used to their advantage? Give it a once-over, and "Oh, I'm sure that's what was intended", before loading and making ready (or, after January 1, only making ready)? I shoot a lot of club matches, and consider every one as preparation for bigger matches, so I don't "turn it down" just because it's local.

[JFD]

I could care less if it's a local match with stages designed on the fly. I'll game the hell out of it. As I found out when I was MD, shooters gaming the hell out of your stages teaches you to bullet-proof them. If you don't want to bother, then prepare for your "intent" to fly out the window.

I've designed a bunch of stages and my least favorite word is "intent". If a designer really wants you to do something a particular way, then they need to suck it up and drag out the walls, barrels, doors etc...Or in this case, spend a few minutes writing a decent WSB. When in doubt, grab a big time gamer and let him help you with the WSB. As a new MD, I always had a super-gamer walk my stages before the match, with me explaining my "intent" and him explaining how they would actually be shot. Unless he spotted a "sweet spot" that negated all movement, I usually just left the stages alone.

At our local matches, stages with giant holes or possible safety issues are subject for discussion at the walkthrough, with the appropriate person making a decision on how the stage may be shot at that time. Normally the WSB is updated at that time or a change is made to the stage.

[XRe]

I could care less if it's a local match with stages designed on the fly. I'll game the hell out of it. As I found out when I was MD, shooters gaming the hell out of your stages teaches you to bullet-proof them. If you don't want to bother, then prepare for your "intent" to fly out the window.

I've designed a bunch of stages and my least favorite word is "intent". If a designer really wants you to do something a particular way, then they need to suck it up and drag out the walls, barrels, doors etc...Or in this case, spend a few minutes writing a decent WSB. When in doubt, grab a big time gamer and let him help you with the WSB. As a new MD, I always had a super-gamer walk my stages before the match, with me explaining my "intent" and him explaining how they would actually be shot. Unless he spotted a "sweet spot" that negated all movement, I usually just left the stages alone.

+1... That's it in a nutshell. Anything else is basically burying your head in the sand and praying that people will be "nice" to you....

[JThompson]

The wording appears clear, but if you must make it more obvious, add:

"There is one procedural penalty per shot fired at a target from outside the specified shooting box."

Richard

I also agree that the above is much more clearer than playing word games with adding and moving "only" around. Hell, I read all three of the previously mentioned possible rewrites, and they still all say this array from this box and never clarify on possible unknown scenarios and how to deal with them. In all three of the "only" rewrites I would still assume any shot at an array outside the specified shooting box would be a procedural. Guess I'm not much of a gamer.

Ah fer cryin' out loud. . . .

At a level I, local club-type match, this stage was likely to have been designed on the fly, the WSB written in pencil, squeezed in above a rough sketch of an idea for a stage, by someone who is neither an English major nor a Certified Range Lawyer (CRL), when they needed to come up with one more stage to round out the match, and had limited time and resources to make it happen.

Under these circumstances, if the intent is clear, give the designer a break and don't game the darned thing, unless you're willing to come back for the next match and design (and set up) your own Gamer-Impervious Stage (GIS).

+10

We have "practice" matches that aren't turned in and I break away from work early to design a good stage so the guys will have something other than stand and blast stages. Sometimes I'm working up to the point where most everyone else is loading for the match. I go up and scribble a quick WSB to let them know my intent, more than anything else. I get people picking at this or at that... how about you bring your happy ass down and help setup the "practice" match one in awhile and then you can rag about course design, or try and game a stage one guy took the afternoon off from work to help make it and interesting practice/match. I don't get pissed about it, but annoyed for sure. I try and make all my stuff... from shooting area engage as visable, but in an indoor range with sidewalls being unshootable it's sometimes hard to do.

The intent of this walk through is clear as a bell to me. Shoot the damn targets in the order stated from the boxes stated. IF it was not clear speak to the designer or the MD and get it straight before you shoot the stage. They may go back and amend the WSB, but barring that have some integrity and shoot it as intended. If the WSB or design could be better then go to the designer and with RESPECT point out the flaws and ask for clarifications... he/she will learn and you won't lose a "volunteer." I think at lower level matches it's up to us all to point out flaws in a walk through and correct or clarify any grey areas before the first shot is fired. At our club we try and do this if we are the first squad to shoot. If we are second to a stage and find something we ask the first squad how they interpreted it for parity sake.

JFD: You have a point about making stages better by gaming them, but it could have been fixed before and the poor bastard that designed it could have learned the lesson without throwing away hours of work on a course design, for a match that cost $10

I know somewhere Darryl D is laughing his ass off thinking GAME ON!

Edited November 17, 2007 by JThompson

[richardschennberg]

Unless you have dedicated ROs for each stage, you want your description as well as instructions on applying procedural penalties specific enough that the ROs from each squad score the stage identically. Since major matches usually have dedicated ROs for stages and local matche usually have an RO that shoots with his squad, I suggest that descriptions must be clear and specific.

Richard Schennberg

[Jim Norman]

JT Said

The intent of this walk through is clear as a bell to me. Shoot the damn targets in the order stated from the boxes stated. IF it was not clear speak to the designer or the MD and get it straight before you shoot the stage. They may go back and amend the WSB, but barring that have some integrity and shoot it as intended. If the WSB or design could be better then go to the designer and with RESPECT point out the flaws and ask for clarifications... he/she will learn and you won't lose a "volunteer." I think at lower level matches it's up to us all to point out flaws in a walk through and correct or clarify any grey areas before the first shot is fired. At our club we try and do this if we are the first squad to shoot. If we are second to a stage and find something we ask the first squad how they interpreted it for parity sake.

You have said it all. We have this little speech at every match now. Read the WSB, look over the stage,, IF you have a question or even think you might have a question, come and get teh MD/RM. We will MAKE A DECISION. If you do not and it is later determined that your squad shot the stage way out side teh WSB, we will not throw out the stage, YOUR squad will get a ZERO. If we have to throw out the stage, We WILL make sure that the reason is made clear.

Sadly it is often the experianced shooters that will ubergame a stage and destroy it. We are after all talking about club level matches here, not the Nationals. Heck, anyone tha thas shot a Nats has probably seen changes made before the first shot as the squad looked at a stage and found a gaping hole.

Jim

[konkapot]

Good grief. The only words that are in the WSB are....the ACTUAL words that are in there. Not what we want....not what we think....not what the designer's "intent" was. As written, RickBs interpretation of that stage was totally legit.

Adding 3 more "onlys" and one sentence at the end would have made that a gamer-proof (maybe gamer-resistant) stage.

The worn out argument of "it's only a club/level 1 match" are copouts. I have seen with my own eyes that that is an ugly downward path...."it's only a club match" has resulted in "overturned" DQs, inconsistent scoring, illegal equipment and ultimately gravel pit matches where people get hurt.

The other argument of "well if you want it done better do it yourself" is awfully similar to "if you want it done right you've got to do it yourself."

Setting up and designing stages is hard to do right, especially for people who aren't.....precise....in their written communication skills. Get help. Copy the wording from other stages or classifiers that you've shot.

Not attacking anybody personally....just disagreeing with viewpoints.

FY42385

[Punkin Chunker]

I could care less if it's a local match with stages designed on the fly. I'll game the hell out of it. As I found out when I was MD, shooters gaming the hell out of your stages teaches you to bullet-proof them. If you don't want to bother, then prepare for your "intent" to fly out the window.

I've designed a bunch of stages and my least favorite word is "intent". If a designer really wants you to do something a particular way, then they need to suck it up and drag out the walls, barrels, doors etc...Or in this case, spend a few minutes writing a decent WSB. When in doubt, grab a big time gamer and let him help you with the WSB. As a new MD, I always had a super-gamer walk my stages before the match, with me explaining my "intent" and him explaining how they would actually be shot. Unless he spotted a "sweet spot" that negated all movement, I usually just left the stages alone.

At our local matches, stages with giant holes or possible safety issues are subject for discussion at the walkthrough, with the appropriate person making a decision on how the stage may be shot at that time. Normally the WSB is updated at that time or a change is made to the stage.

This post says tons.

Good grief. The only words that are in the WSB are....the ACTUAL words that are in there. Not what we want....not what we think....not what the designer's "intent" was. As written, RickBs interpretation of that stage was totally legit.

Adding 3 more "onlys" and one sentence at the end would have made that a gamer-proof (maybe gamer-resistant) stage.

The worn out argument of "it's only a club/level 1 match" are copouts. I have seen with my own eyes that that is an ugly downward path...."it's only a club match" has resulted in "overturned" DQs, inconsistent scoring, illegal equipment and ultimately gravel pit matches where people get hurt.

The other argument of "well if you want it done better do it yourself" is awfully similar to "if you want it done right you've got to do it yourself."

Setting up and designing stages is hard to do right, especially for people who aren't.....precise....in their written communication skills. Get help. Copy the wording from other stages or classifiers that you've shot.

Not attacking anybody personally....just disagreeing with viewpoints.

This one too.

I've gone to those local matches a couple of hours early to help set up. At the set up I was handed a piece of notebook paper with a rough sketch of a 32-round stage and pointed toward an empty bay. Once there, I teamed up with a couple of brand-new, "which side of the target goes on the side of the gun?" shooters to set the thing up.

At match brief time, we headed back. Splinters, pinch injuries from poppers, sweaty, not yet signed or squadded.

The stage? Yep, had the h---- gamed out of it. Plenty of holes, etc. (no shoot-throughs, and no safety issues or RO traps -- that much I could guarantee.)

You have all convinced me of the errors I have been making. I realize now that I was part of the problem. I no longer want to be part of the copping out, or the head in the sand, or the group that pleads for mercy from the more sophisticated shooters -- in short, those who are the source of these problems.

Instead, I want to be part of the solution. So from now on, I will show up in time to sign up, squad up, socialize and shoot. I will pick apart the WSB to make sure I follow the specifics of what is written. I believe I know the English language well enough to tangle up most WSBs which go beyond "Stand in this box. Shoot those targets. You're done."

I'm pretty sure I know about 4 or 5 other shooters who will go along with me.