Reloading the gun...

[spook]

Practicing reloads with the Glock 17 for IPSC Production tonight (girlfriend not home yet, my favorite time to practice).

I wanted to see if I had any wasted motion, so I looked in the mirror to see. I noticed that all 10 or so reloads I did while looking at myself in the mirror instead of the gun, were spot on. Then I started practicing reloads while just looking at the target(s). Same thing, consistency all the way. When I switched back to looking at the gun, my reloads were less consistent.

I have two thoughts about this:

1) A reload is a very simple movement. It is just as simple as drawing the gun. we don't look at the gun while drawing it so why look during a reload?

2) When looking at the gun during reloading, my focus was shifting around a lot. Sights, to magwell, to target, to sights. When not looking, it felt so much calmer. Sights, target, wait until the magazine is in and back to the sights like when you draw the gun.

Thoughts?

[mjbine]

Practicing reloads with the Glock 17 for IPSC Production tonight (girlfriend not home yet, my favorite time to practice).

I wanted to see if I had any wasted motion, so I looked in the mirror to see. I noticed that all 10 or so reloads I did while looking at myself in the mirror instead of the gun, were spot on. Then I started practicing reloads while just looking at the target(s). Same thing, consistency all the way. When I switched back to looking at the gun, my reloads were less consistent.

I have two thoughts about this:

1) A reload is a very simple movement. It is just as simple as drawing the gun. we don't look at the gun while drawing it so why look during a reload?

2) When looking at the gun during reloading, my focus was shifting around a lot. Sights, to magwell, to target, to sights. When not looking, it felt so much calmer. Sights, target, wait until the magazine is in and back to the sights like when you draw the gun.

Thoughts?

Spook,

I have always look into the magwell when inserting the mag. I just think you might tend to get sloppy if you are not looking at what you are trying to accomplish. If you look at TT and Jake's reload videos, they are always looking at the magwell and then snap to target and align the sights.

[knightkrawler00]

All of my best reloads I can remember seeing the magazine withess holes very clearly as the magazine slid home. It's possible that you are moving your head around too much, causing movement in your arms. This is why it's important to keep the gun up in front of your face, to minimize movement of every part of your body, not just your arms.

[spook]

I'm pretty excited about this hence the fast reply

mjbine, the only "advantage" I saw in reloading while looking at the gun was consistency (getting sloppy while not looking).

But I got to thinking: why would it be any sloppier than not looking at the gun while drawing? Most shooters seem to do pretty well that way

Also, I feel the focus going everywhere when looking @ the gun will lead to less consistency (especially when reloading on the move, when you have to locate the target, look at the gun and look where you're going). There's so much going on...

TT and Jake's reloads are awesome (just letting you know that what I'm about to say is in no way or form meant to take anything away from them), but those clips do not show the consistency of the reload or what they see when they mount the gun again.

[spook]

All of my best reloads I can remember seeing the magazine withess holes very clearly as the magazine slid home. It's possible that you are moving your head around too much, causing movement in your arms. This is why it's important to keep the gun up in front of your face, to minimize movement of every part of your body, not just your arms.

Ah, but I am not saying that you cannot make good reloads while looking at the gun (look at Jake for instance).

But I compare this to looking at the target or the sights while shooting. You look at the gun (sights) and you get a nice reload. I don't look at the gun (compare to a target focus while shooting), but that doesn't mean I am not aware of the reload. I feel the exact location of the gun and the magazine and I even pause slightly before the two meet. I am very aware, just not visually. Like when you draw the gun.

Not looking at the gun AND not feeling the reload (not being aware of anything) resembles what Brian refers to "blasting at brown" where you don't look at the target or the sights.

Another advantage I immediately noticed is that you don't have to put the gun in between your face and the target (like you say and most do). I can make the reload a little lower and have a perfect look at where my next shot will go. Plus the mag is in sooner (lower reload means I reload closer to where the magazine is on the belt).

[Kingman]

I am nowhere near the speed of reload of a lot, but if reloading on the move I am not looking at the mag well.

[CDRODA396]

Simply for the sake of discussion, what I think is going on is that you have developed some muscle memory and are now able to reload smoothly and quickly without looking because your subconcious knows where everything should be/go. I also believe that over time, if you dont practice looking at the magwell at least occassionally, your smoothness will deteriorate every so slightly, but deteriorate none the less. Enough to make a difference, who knows?

You also mentioned being able to load the gun lower, therefore quicker, but in the long run, you now have to bring the gun back up to your line of sight so this is probably a wash... take a fraction more time to reload in your line of sight and be back on target faster or reload lower and have a mag in a fraction faster but take more time to get back to line of sight/on taraget after the reload.

I know that there is a difference between practical and tactical (military) pistol-craft, but dispite their differences, they share many similarities and both feed off of the developments/advancements of the other. With that in mind, I know some elements in the military recently took a hard look at this very question. Traditionally, it was felt that at handgun distances, it was more important to keep your eyes on the threat while reloading. However the re-examination of this issue by those that did it, concluded it was worth taking a "momentary glance" at the magwell, at the critical moment to ensure the mag went in the magwell and not across the room.

Of course, as with all things, everyone has their own opinion and will do what they feel is best for them, but USUALLY when the majority of a group practice a certain technique, its generally because it has proven itself over time, under all conditions and under all levels of competition.

Just my $0.82

[Flexmoney]

I really have to get tense, then the looking at the magwell becomes more important.

To get there...I do the decreasing PAR time on a draw, one, reload, one drill at something like a lamp shade at 5y. When the PAR time gets fast, it gets tough and I really find that...with the tension...I need to get a good eye on the magwell to locate it.

Feel works great...when you are on.

my two cents...

[shred]

Probably not-looking at the gun made your head sit still, which probably affected the rest of your body.. I notice when I look at the gun and I tend to drop it more, which means I drop my head, which means I have to reverse all that to shoot again, which is slow.

[G-ManBart]

All of my best reloads I can remember seeing the magazine withess holes very clearly as the magazine slid home. It's possible that you are moving your head around too much, causing movement in your arms. This is why it's important to keep the gun up in front of your face, to minimize movement of every part of your body, not just your arms.

Another advantage I immediately noticed is that you don't have to put the gun in between your face and the target (like you say and most do). I can make the reload a little lower and have a perfect look at where my next shot will go. Plus the mag is in sooner (lower reload means I reload closer to where the magazine is on the belt).

Spook,

You say it's an advantage, but were you timing the difference between the two?

I've spent a LOT of time on this lately...to the point that my left hand is usually sore from doing reloads and found that a lower reload (where I tend to do them without thinking about it) is slower. The gun has a lot farther to go to get back into position...re-index if you will. The higher reload lets me just snap my right hand back into it's normal position and I'm on the target by the time my support hand is in place. It's consistently .2 faster for me.

I found this working with Steve Anderson's drills and then e-mailing back and forth with him about it for quite some time. I also found that I'd stopped looking at the magwell because I was getting so much faster and my reloads were working great. Yeah, until I shot a classifier and totally tanked the reload. Under pressure, the urge to get the gun back on target was such that I started moving the gun back into my index spot before the mag was in...oops.

I think that's why the best shooters look at the magwell....it may not be the absolute fastest way, but it saves your butt when the pressure is on. R,

[Flexmoney]

Some good stuff here...I'll have to come back and soak some of it in (when I'm not already late to get out the door).

[Steve Anderson]

How cool would it be if you could look at the gun without slowing down to do so?

Are the magicians full of feces? Is the hand quicker than the eye?

Flex nailed it with his BFH. Yes, you can bust out a smokin' load without peeking at the hole, but it won't be consistent under less than ideal conditions.

Please make looking at the magwell a part of your load. It won't slow you down and it might speed you up.

It kinda sounds like a trick of the day...maybe you changed something and noticed something?

Either way, you're thinking and that's positive.

SA

[boz1911]

Ditto for Steve's comments. Personally I need to look and the better my look the better the reload. I've done reloads without looking but I've also sent mags flying that way..........

[EricW]

I'm no expert, but I've spent a hell of a lot of time looking and not looking on the reload. And throughout it all I've thought each school was "better" for a while. My opinion is that looking is a trap and not looking is a trap as well. What works for me is to be "visually aware" of where my magwell is. I don't have to look hard at the inside of the magwell to see the mag in, but I need to be aware of the physical location of magwell in order for a consistent "all net" mag insertion. This means that I glance down and divert just enough attention to see the magwell, stuff in a mag, and roll. Sort of a compromise between the two extremes.

FWIW, which can't be much...

[BritinUSA]

I'm not sure of the science of it; But I do know that my fastest and smoothest reloads are done when:

1) I do not consciously think of doing the reload, and

2) I don't look at the reload, In fact I don't take my eyes off the next target.

For me, this is just the way it is, others may have different results, but then we are all different. If 'not looking' works for you and it is consistent and reliable then that - for you - is the best way.

[ong45]

Have you tried no look reloads with your revo?

[spook]

Back from shopping with my girlfriend, which is also a lot easier if you don't look at the wallet...

Some good stuff posted in the mean time

What I read:

CDRODA396: "Consistency will deteriorate. You have to look once in a while or the skill will deteriorate."

That's what I think too. Well, I think you could/should look at the magwell during the (initial) development of your reload. I see looking at the magwell as "training wheels". And why not keep using the training wheels if they don't make your reload slower, less consistent.

But that's exactly what I'm questioning here. I think looking is slower/less consistent to me.

Flex, G-ManBart, SteveA:"When under pressure, tension makes feeling a reload in more difficult than looking it in."

Cool, so practicing the reload without looking is also a great tension drill?

shred & G-ManBart: About the "which way is faster" stuff. Consistency is what I'm primarily thinking about here. Maybe I should have never mentioned the speed and economy of motion thing, because I don't want to get into the "which is faster" part just yet. The consistency is what I noticed most of all, together with the lack of things going on. A very quiet, calm experience.

SteveA: I have thought about whether this might be the Trick of the Day. I will just continue training this way for a month or so to find out.

EricW: Awesome post. That completely describes how I feel when reloading. Seriously the whole "both options are a trap" nailed it for me. That's what it feels like. When I look and fumble the load I can feel like it is because I looked and there was too much going on so I should have gone by feel more. When I don't look and fumble it is because I didn't go by feel enough and was busy with other stuff and blame myself for not looking.

Maybe the body needs to figure out whether or not it needs to look at the magwell. Food for thought.

James: Yes I have tried not looking with revolver reloads. But the reload of the revolver is a lottle more "technical", IMHO. It sometimes worked and sometimes it didn't. But I found I was much more consistent when I knew how the chargeholes were alligned so I knew how to drop the moonclip. Also, a critical moment in reloadin a revolver is knowing when the clip is completely in the cylinder. This is key. As a shooter you have no control over this, because you drop the clip and let gravity do the work. Trying to close the gun without the clip being in, will make SHTF. So I always had to make sure the clip was in and quickest wat to do this is by looking.

So short story: yes tried it, no didn't do it

Locating the magwell should be easy. Maybe I should go by peripheral vision, like when you eat or put the tip of your finger on your nose (both are harder when your eyes are closed).

More experimenting on the way

I love this stuff

[Skywalker]

Spook,

I've been doing reload dry-fire drills in the last year or two, which has been helping me greatly in this department, so I'll post what my experience taught me.

My average with Standard set-up (magwell and behind the hipbone mags) is about 1.1/1.2 seconds consistent. After a few weeks of intense practice I was able to break the 1 second barrier, but I was really pushing it, and not consistent.

A low reload (for me) is always slower, while it doesn't improve consistency: consistency comes from eliminating tension in forearms and biceps. If I'm tense, I'll blow the reload and lauch the mag in orbit, no matter where I'm doing it.

I reload about 2 or 3 inches below the gun at eye level height: I bring the gun closer by a couple of inches and drop it by the same amount. I never move my head while doing this, it's the eyesight that shifts from the sights/target to the butt of the gun, then, as soon as the mag is in, it goes back on target and awaits for the front sight to come in between.

I don't always look for the seam between magwell and inner grip: sometimes I do, sometimes I don't (it depends on how close I bring the gun in: the closer I bring it, the more I tilt it, so I can see the seam), but I always have a glance at the bottom of the grip and the magwell, it gives me a visual reference to where the mag shall hit.

I've been doing experiments with eyes closed as well: I can usually hit about 6 or 7 good reloads out of 10 this way. For me, this means that I'm mostly a visual guy, I can't rely on body feeling only to complete the reload.

I acknowledge that there are other kind of guys, who are much more aware of body feelings, that will need a lot less visual input; after all, a blind man can easily and smoothly move around in a familiar enviroment, even though he doesn't actually see the obstacles: he just senses their presence, knowing that they are there.

So, in the end, I guess your way of doing the reload comes straight from the level of body feelings you can recognize: it's just a matter of "form fits function" rather than adapting function to the form you want to force yourself in.

[spook]

Thanks for the reply Luca, I like the analogy to the blind man who senses objects without seeing them. That just shows what the human body is capable of.

That's also why I think that I should be able to never look at the gun during a reload. I mean, most people could look at their gun during the draw and snap back to the target in time to see the gun get on the target, but no-one does that (despite the fact that no one has a 100% consistent draw).

I think the biggest problem with missing reloads when going by feel is tension. Not feeling fast enough, or trying to feel fast.

When shooting sometimes there's tension and sometimes there's no tension. I think this causes the "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario EricW discribes in his post.

[38superman]

I never really thought about it at all until this thread was posted.

Now that you mention it, I realize that I don't look at the gun when I am doing reloads during a match.

However, I do practice reloads and I do look at it when I am practicing.

I think the difference is that in a match my focus stays on the course of fire and the reloads are done "using the force"

There are no sights on a basketball.

When you dribble you are surveying the court, not watching the ball.

When you shoot you look at the hoop, not the ball.

I can put my hand in my back pocket 100 times out of a 100.

I don't need to see it to know where it is.

I think you will get a lot of different opinions on this.

That is mine, FWIW.

Tony

Edited November 5, 2007 by 38superman

[Catfish]

I think that by not watching the mag well, if only for a split second, you are relegating yourself to not performing at your peak.

Flex, Anderson, TT, Jake are all GMs. Do you really think they would do something on purpose to slow themselves down?

[eerw]

doing the reload without looking is built off muscle memory..and under a practice conditions can seem really quick..

as soon as you introduce stress..match conditions, movement, etc..the muscle memory may fail you..and so goes the consistency you thought you had..

learn to reload high and away from your face..and train your eyes to snap back the magwll..look the top bullet in..and then back to the target..

you will be quick and consistent under any condition.

[spook]

So far I haven't heard any argument that makes clear why we don't look at the gun during drawing, but look at the gun during reloading...

Catfish, because someone else does something is never a reason for me to assume that is the best way. And yes, I think some would do something on purpose that would slow them down (naturally). If it leads to more consistent performance (which in the long run equals speed).

With reloading, there is so much emphasis on how to get the fresh magazine in the gun. Almost never do I read about reaquiring the grip and getting back to the shooting. I feel that is one of the strong points of reloading without looking.

I know drawing the gun without looking is (naturally) faster to me, because I don't have to shift my focus back to the target and then back to the sights. I feel the same way about reloading.

Is it possible to be fast on the reload while looking at the gun? Sure, look at all the guys you mention. But I think those same guys could learn to look at their gun when drawing and be very fast (and gain some extra consistency at that )

See what I mean? I'm not here to win a "this technique is better than that technique". I just love to think and experiment with techniques and find this is one of the best place to get some refreshing input from guys who think alike

Something just popped in my head re-reading Ong45's post.

Is it possible the emphasis on looking at the magwell comes from reloading all those skinny 1911 mags into those narrow-ass 1911 magwells "back in the day"?

Edited November 5, 2007 by spook

[Singlestack]

So far I haven't heard any argument that makes clear why we don't look at the gun during drawing, but look at the gun during reloading...

I don't look at the gun while drawing because my arm is touching it. If I missed it occasionally I would look at it. I look my reloads in to be consistent. I can do it without looking but I am more consistent if I look. IMO it does not take longer to look and it takes a lot longer to re-do a missed reload than a looked in one.

[Skywalker]

Spook,

I'm not really sure I completely understood everybody, but I think a bit of a misunderstanding is going on here.

While most of the guys here are saying that looking at the bottom of the gun/magwell will help consistency in reloading, nobody (I guess) implied you have to move your head to do so.

This is where I happen to think your argument of nobody doing the draw while looking at the gun is weakest.

Drawing the gun, while looking at it, requires to turn your head to a low, strong side position, and this will inevitably slow you down in driving the gun onto the target (you will then have to turn your head, look for the target, drive the gun onto it).

Reloading, unless you do it exagerately low, will only require you to move your eyes, without turning your head.

I equate this to moving my eyes to the next target of an array, waiting for the gun to cover it, then switching my focus to the front sight again.

Similarly, during the reload, I move my eyes from the target to the gun (usually on the magwell), see the fresh mag coming in (I might see the top of the mag disappearing into the magwell or not, depending on the body feeling I have on the reload), then move my eyes back to the next target.

It's eye movement, not head one.