Prize Table or not?

[dirtypool40]

Couple thoughts on pricing and prizes:

Real Prize table matches are few and far between now adays. Prize tables are a hassle. I'd say of the 2001 match I helped run, better than 70% of the effort went into the prize table. I also think they are exciting, even though I have never won a gun at one or been the "beneficary" of a juicy prize table. The most I've ever won has been about $300 worth. And has been pointed out, I'd have been well ahead if I just stayed home and ordered the $300 item through the mail.

I'm toying with running a match, a one division, head's up, prizes by order of finish match. Most of the criticism I'm getting is something like "I'm a D shooter and I want prize for winning D class".

I am not a fan of sand bagging, which ruins class awards / prize tables, and I want it to be a straight up, grind it out, gun fight, that rewards good shooting. I want to award prizes by order of finish, like Frank does at the FL Open.

That's the example I use when people complain, the FL Open. Shooters there tour the prize table by order of finish, and class prizes are gobbled up by sandbaggers whether foriegn or domestic. Yet he fills it up every year with shooters who want to shoot, because they LOVE TO SHOOT.

When you look at the big picture, the difference in cost to the shooter ain't much. Add a plane ticket, hotel, rental car, beers while telling lies, dinner after the match at Dixie Crossroads, and the difference between $125 and maybe $200 entry fee ain't much. I think at $200 a shooter I could put a pretty decent prize table together. Ask anyone who saw the spread at our 2001 match and they'll vouch for me.

The question is, do I dump the prize table, save myself the headache and maybe get a few more shooters?

[EZ Bagger]

I like a prize table in theory but unless you have someone on the inside, I don't know how you'd create a prize table that would be good enough to be the reason people shoot your match.

You may end up with more workers to help with teardown if some of the prizes are drawn from a hat

[Catfish]

I think a good quality match that provides a variety of shooting challenges will draw people more than a prize table will.

I'll use the NM Sectional as an example. I've shot the match the last 3 years and there is little to no prize table. The first year it was a fairly small match, the 2nd it was bigger and this year had more shooters than the previous two. So, obviously there was a draw and it wasn't the prize table.

Build it, they will come.

[dirtypool40]

I like a prize table in theory but unless you have someone on the inside, I don't know how you'd create a prize table that would be good enough to be the reason people shoot your match.

You may end up with more workers to help with teardown if some of the prizes are drawn from a hat

Yup, in the "protest hour" we ask everyone to help. No prizes until everything is put away. And you GOTTA reward your RO's.

Edited October 23, 2007 by dirtypool40

[38superman]

I happen to like matches that sport a nice prize table.

I think it adds a little fun and excitement when there are decent prizes up for grabs.

It doesn't have to cost a fortune in match fees.

The Tennessee sectional is a pretty good example.

They always have a very good prize table and gave away quite a few guns this year but the entry fee was not excessive.

It really doesn't matter too much to me what system you use to determine the order.

Any system will reward those that shoot well and leave behind those that don't.

That said, I like the systems that rewards all the class winners.

I think it is worthwhile to see the newbies and the youngsters win something decent now and then.

It encourages them and keeps them interested.

That is good for the growth and future of the sport.

Tls

Edited October 23, 2007 by 38superman

[Bigbadaboom]

I say $125 and no prizes or only donated prizes. I'm in it for the shooting not the booty.

[Sunuva]

I'm in it for the shooting also, but I do like to see plaques by class

[Wakal]

Trophies for the class 'baggers, prize table by strict order of finish

Alex

[rgkeller]

Let the MDs spend their valuable time on the stages.

If sponsors want to donate stuff, give that stuff to the ROs and to those who set up and tear down the match.

[GentlemanJim]

I suspect the very best shooters want order of finish only

middle of the road shooters want by place in class

newer shooters want random drawing

honestly everybody would like a chance to win something.

order in class seems to be the most equitable...use measures to deal with (baggers)

Over the years I have seen all the above used..any are ok with me....I go for the fun I get from shooting and the wonderfull people I meet.

I have been very disapionted when I have seen people get mad because a C or D shooter won a prize when in their mind they were not deserving.

And I have also seen awsome generosity of shooters donating prizes they won to juniors and to other classes.

Prizes are cool and have a place in the sport....but if the prize is the only thing that brings a person to the match..its kinda sad

I am glad I dont have to make the decision ...no matter what you choose...someone is not going to like it

Jim

[dirtypool40]

Prizes are cool and have a place in the sport....but if the prize is the only thing that brings a person to the match..its kinda sad

I am glad I dont have to make the decision ...no matter what you choose...someone is not going to like it

Jim

Ain't that the truth.

[Loves2Shoot]

honestly everybody would like a chance to win something.

No, if I win something I want to do it because of my performance, otherwise it is just more crap.

[JThompson]

I suspect the very best shooters want order of finish only

middle of the road shooters want by place in class

newer shooters want random drawing

honestly everybody would like a chance to win something.

order in class seems to be the most equitable...use measures to deal with (baggers)

Over the years I have seen all the above used..any are ok with me....I go for the fun I get from shooting and the wonderfull people I meet.

I have been very disapionted when I have seen people get mad because a C or D shooter won a prize when in their mind they were not deserving.

And I have also seen awsome generosity of shooters donating prizes they won to juniors and to other classes.

Prizes are cool and have a place in the sport....but if the prize is the only thing that brings a person to the match..its kinda sad

I am glad I dont have to make the decision ...no matter what you choose...someone is not going to like it

Jim

Jim pretty much covered how I feel about it.

[mscott]

I have yet to see a prize table, but I think that prizes should go to the top shooters period. The top dogs got there because they wanted to work for it and deserve to have their performance rewarded. On the other hand I don't want my match fee inflated $50 (or whatever it is) to cover prizes. I would say put some effort toward donated prizes, but I would rather see more elaborate stages than to get a box of bullets I don't use.

[Paul Santiago]

I have yet to see a prize table, but I think that prizes should go to the top shooters period. The top dogs got there because they wanted to work for it and deserve to have their performance rewarded. On the other hand I don't want my match fee inflated $50 (or whatever it is) to cover prizes. I would say put some effort toward donated prizes, but I would rather see more elaborate stages than to get a box of bullets I don't use.

+1

I've not been to a match with a prize table either. Trophies for winners and plaques for classes are fine by me

[Hardball]

Ok, how is this for response to the "I want it cause I won it or it is just more crap"....

I have no hamstring in my left leg. I stand little to no chance of making it past A class. Not my desire, but probably going to be reality. I can not start and stop like most of the top shooters. I can, however, bust my azz and shoot to the best of my ability. If that ability get's me 100th limited shooter, then so be it. But to me, I am no more or less important than anyone else on the range. We all are fighting the gun grabbers, trying to grow our sport, share our wealth of knowledge with newcomers, and we all get a bit of a buzz off of seeing someone else bitten by the same bug we have been.

I can appreciate the attitude that if you didn't win it, it is just more crap, but there are those who are relegated to the scrap pile when you preclude class rewards, and class recognition. In certain instances the sandbaggers can take care of themselves. I.e. a B class shooter shoots a 92% of ole DP there. Well, let's see, unless DP flat out fell flat on his face, well, it ain't gonna happen so, yeah, I would hate to reward that. On the other hand, if that B class shooter had one hell of a match and things just happened to work his way, I would hate to discourage it too.

My opinion is just that. My opinion, but if you take everyone from B class down out of the sport, the sport will be broken and in the history books so to speak. All it would be at that point is back to the 80's. Ten guys shooting on a range and tring to convince the rest of us that we really count and we could learn from them.

[Carlos]

I have yet to see a prize table, but I think that prizes should go to the top shooters period. The top dogs got there because they wanted to work for it and deserve to have their performance rewarded. On the other hand I don't want my match fee inflated $50 (or whatever it is) to cover prizes. I would say put some effort toward donated prizes, but I would rather see more elaborate stages than to get a box of bullets I don't use.

+1

I've not been to a match with a prize table either. Trophies for winners and plaques for classes are fine by me

I have been to matches with price tables (2005 USPSA Prodution & Revolver Nationals).

I did not have the time to waste on such an anachronism. So I left. Whoever got "my" stuff that year - enjoy it (turns out I did not need it).

I go to USPSA matches to shoot, not to collect stuff or earn money. Skip the prize table completely. Some of us don't have that sort of time to sit around.

For that matter, skip the prizes altogether.

Let's focus on what matters: THE SHOOTING. Just my 2 cents.

Regards, C.

[XD Niner]

Let the MDs spend their valuable time on the stages.

If sponsors want to donate stuff, give that stuff to the ROs and to those who set up and tear down the match.

This is a terrific suggestion. +1!

[dirtypool40]

Some interesting things emerging in the polls.

Looks like people either like "by order of finish" or "none at all". Most folks don't seem to like the Lewis system, or rewarding sandbaggers anymore than I do.

Additionally, we seem pretty evenly split (if you add the two together) between "charge me and work up a serious prize table" and "I don't care, keep it cheap".

Edited October 24, 2007 by dirtypool40

[kimel]

I want to shoot. Don't tell me "everyone will get their entry fee back of the prize table" because while monetarily that might be true I have only rarely gotten something I would normally go out and purchase off the prize table. And what really blows is a certificate from somewhere for "half-off" and you have to spend a bunch of money to get anything out of it or sell it for 10% of face value.

If vendors want to send swag then juice the match staff first as a thank you for putting it together and making it run; then whatever is left can go into the shooter's bags or give it away by random draw at lunch or something.

Seems like many of the majors require you to hang out for the prize table which can easily run into another night in the hotel instead of getting started home. I know at Missoula those that stayed for the prize table pretty much had to hang for another night. I had to hang for another night because Floyd made me drink too much IPA...but that is a whole different story.

And with motel and fuel prices the way they are now the match fee may just be the smallest expense for the trip. So getting that back off the prize table is pretty meaningless.

[ChrisStock]

I am as sure that I won't win anything off of the prize table anyway, just like I know it doesn't snow here in Florida in August, so what do I care about a friggin prize table? I KNOW I would just be donating to my betters.

I go to matches for a couple of reasons.

1.) Have fun

2.) Learn to improve by watching/talking with superior shooters

3.) Socialize and laugh with folks who like the same things I do

The way I see it, a bigger match is just a chance to have more of all of the above. There's $.02 for you from a D classer (temporarily).

[38superman]

It's about the shooting.

You hear it over and over again.

Of course it's about the shooting.

I wouldn't stay away from a match because it doesn't have a prize table.

If so I wouldn't ever go to a club match.

I wouldn't go to a match simply because they do have a prize table.

Matches that are well run and well designed will see me there, prize table or not.

That said, I still think it's a nice touch and I always like my cake with a little icing.

There's nothing wrong with asking sponsors to give something back to the sport that keeps them in business.

There's nothing wrong with a decent gift to the first C shooter that just beat 40 of his peers.

If you are going to have a prize table I prefer class winners then order of finish.

Rewarding the top shooters over and over is nice. They earned their way to the top.

But do you really think another XD or 1911 means anything to Robbie or Manny?

To a newbie it's like winning the lottery.

Sandbaggers are a fact of life, but they are not a good enough reason to blow away the classification system or to eliminate recognition.

If those guys really bother us that much, change the rules to make it tougher on them.

Tony

Edited October 24, 2007 by 38superman

[buddy_fuentes]

Everyone seems to have a pretty good argument for their view. I have several thoughts on the subject.

I have won a ton of money, trophies, and plaques bass fishing. The prizes and cash pay-out come from the entry fees. The better fishermen are the recipient of most of the prizes/money. However, there would not be much of a tournament without the other fishermen and their fees. Tournament organizers have learned that some random give-a-ways help draw participants. In this analogy, you need something to draw the B, C, and D class shooters to a match. They can shoot their monthly match for say $10 to $20; why would they want to pay $125 to $200 to shoot a match that they have no possibility of getting anything from? Yes we do shoot for fun, but there has to be something to keep them coming and paying the larger fees. (think of how much loading supplies can be bought for the difference in match fees)

Sand bagging is a real problem in our sport where it doesn't exist in most. Therefore, I think that a reward for first GM, M, A, B, C, and D should be paid out and any other prizes should be given in a random drawing.

One day our BOD will find a way to eliminate sandbagging on all but the lowest levels. When that time comes our professional shooters will earn the kind of money that professional fishermen earn. They will go to a match and pay an entry fee knowing, if I win my class, I will make some serious money.

Buddy

[kurtm]

The bigger the prize table the bigger your match will be, plain and simple. Now please take this from a 3-gun perspective, not pistol where there are soooo many classes/divisions that it boggles the mind! In 3-gun there is Open, Tactical, limited and Heavy Metal ( originally called He-Man ). Only 4 tables to be drawn from, in order of finish. I really believe that one of the main reasons the 3-gun Nationals has historically never filled up is that it has never had a very good prize table. Rocky Mountain 3-gun, Superstition Mountain Mystery 3-gun, CMMG, all have tables worth over $100,00.00 and DPMS is probably much closer to $200,000.00, and all these matches fill to the brim and have waiting lists to shoot. Heck even 100th place gets more back in prizes than their entery fee was.

As a Match director you have to be willing to give a little to get A LOT!!! I have found many in our industry will donate a few things, BUT the minute you approach them with "If I buy this many how many can I get" and SHOW them where it will be advertized and how the money/prises will be spent, good to grerat things happen!

I admit I do shoot some matches because of the great prize tables, If I can place well enough I can get something that I can sell to someone at a great price it helps pay the room and gas, would I attend a match far away if there were no prizes??....Well yes, but there has to be a lot of prestege (sp? as usual) associated with winning it. Like the Tri-Gun Challenge, the European Shotgun Championships, or the Nordic Rifle Championships..and soon the World 3-gun and the European Rifle Championships. Or the match has to really FUN!! Like the Area 6 3-gun or Arkansa State 3-gun.

Now I freely admit that I don't know about pistol matches, I have only been to two "big" pistol matches in My life. The Double Tap match, and the Texas State Limited, but both of these had prize tables and I got more than my entry fee back at both, and had a good time. I might even do another "big" pistol match some year, and I guess I would look for one that has a prize table, as I like to get a little back for my efforts, and prize matches just seem to have a bit more of the carnival atmosphere that I enjoy. KURTM

[dirtypool40]

Good points.

Right now I'm leaning toward no prize table, cheap and easy.

I'd still like to have a juicy prize table, but for a first year it might be a lot to bite off.

KurtM, you're right about spending some to get some. That's why I'd have to up the entry fee, and get entries early so we could get some guns built and other prizes on the way. That being said, I bet we could quite a load of loot to give away.

In the end it'll be up to the shooters.

Edited October 24, 2007 by dirtypool40