Prize Table or not?

[ExtremeShot]

Here's what I want:

- $125 match with a $50,000 prize table

- Reward top shooters in each class

- Sandbaggers don't get diddly

- Sponsored shooters don't get diddly either because we all know they get free stuff all the time anyway

[ExtremeShot]

Oh, I forgot......and everyone walks away with a cool flashlight or boot knife like we got at Single Stack Classic.

[dirtypool40]

IF it's going to be slim prize table, I'd make sure to focus on the RO's, try to get them the nice gift, and several guns. They are the hosts of the party and you gotta treat them right.

Edited October 24, 2007 by dirtypool40

[CenTX]

I like going to big matches, you meet a lot of people and generally have a good time. I am a decent C shooter and hope to be a B soon, but Friday I will be 60 years old. I have a bad back, my knees sometimes give me problems, my bad elbow is only a problem on strong hand only and a couple of fingers usually hurt when I bend them. Oh, and I am a bit overweight and even the front sight of a 6" Limited gun is hard to see. It's pretty obvious I'll never finish high in a major match, but I still like prizes.

In younger days, racing motocross, I was good enough to win money at most races. The draw of the National events was to compete against the best, but there was also more prize money. The money went a lot further in the 60s and 70s and sometimes I could actually cover my expenses. Looking back winning money just made it possible to make more races. With prices the way they are now it would be pretty hard to come even close to meeting expenses winning most big matches.

The DoubleTap Championship this year, in Whicita Falls, TX, had random drawings while you waited for the results. If you won a drawing you had a choice of that prize or you can give it back and chose your order of finish prize. This made waiting around not as bad.

Having separate prizes that only the ROs can win could be option also.

The important things are to put on a match that is fun to shoot and doesn't have a bunch of problems. Have good friendly staffs, decent food available at the range, clean bathrooms, plenty of water, and of course good weather. Well if you can't guarantee good weather at least have some cover available to get out of the sun or rain. A prize table is nice and you should have one for a big match, but that is not the real motivator for most shooters.

The sand bagger problem is tough. Is the shooter having the best match of his life or does he consistantly perform above his class. How do you determine that?

Just my $.02.

[ong45]

Shooter #1: I'm only here for the competition but i should get something for shooting well, i worked hard and deserve it.

Shooter #2: I'm only here for the competition but i want an equal chance at the loot because it's only fair to reward the people who make up the bulk of the membership.

Shooter #3: I'm only here for the competition but if no GM's show up to measure myself by don't count on me showing up next time.

Yawnnnnnn.................................. can we talk about something else now?

[38superman]

Shooter #1: I'm only here for the competition but i should get something for shooting well, i worked hard and deserve it.

Shooter #2: I'm only here for the competition but i want an equal chance at the loot because it's only fair to reward the people who make up the bulk of the membership.

Shooter #3: I'm only here for the competition but if no GM's show up to measure myself by don't count on me showing up next time.

Yawnnnnnn.................................. can we talk about something else now?

NO!. We have to keep talking about this til we get it right.

[dirtypool40]

Shooter #1: I'm only here for the competition but i should get something for shooting well, i worked hard and deserve it.

Shooter #2: I'm only here for the competition but i want an equal chance at the loot because it's only fair to reward the people who make up the bulk of the membership.

Shooter #3: I'm only here for the competition but if no GM's show up to measure myself by don't count on me showing up next time.

Yawnnnnnn.................................. can we talk about something else now?

That's the paradox, do we want to test outselves against the best, sneak an easy win, win prizes, take them home by drawing or steal them by sandbagging? You have to decide if it's a contest or a jamboree. Are we keeping score but not rewarding performance? What do we award classes? It's a tough call and you want to throw a great party but still not exclude anyone.

The bottom line is there's no way to please everyone.

I have the feedback I want, I vote we close this thread.

Edited October 24, 2007 by dirtypool40

[JFD]

Touring the table by class or no prizes at all should be the only two things considered IMHO.

The sport is now based on the classification system, and I'm guessing it was done in order to actually grow the sport instead of keeping it exactly where it is now. Handing out prizes based on another system should only take place at non-USPSA matches unless the sport is changed to kill the classification system.

Folks wonder why fishing or poker are all over TV, but shooting isn't. It's because too many folks in the sport have zero interest in growing the sport and making it something the masses can appreciate. Note that the masses aren't going to join USPSA or attend matches when the focus of the sport is only on the top handful of shooters. Until we have a heck of a lot more members, we aren't going to attract outside interest.

Personally, I don't care to insult class prize winners by calling them all sandbaggers. I know for a fact that this is simply not 100% true, and if the BOD were to focus on the subject, sandbaggers could be shut down. Unfortunately the subject of sandbaggers is another topic. Same thing for the subject of professional shooters in an amateur sport.

Golf is highly popular. Golf at the non-professional level gives out prizes based on their handicap system, then they usually have flights at the local level that further distributes the cash across the board. When I was a member of a country club, our big tournaments (probably 4 per year) had entry fees similar to a major USPSA match and as many participants from our own club as a major USPSA match. This was a single club in an area of MANY clubs. If we were to look at the combined attendence of the 2007 USPSA National championships, those same numbers were attained during the USGA club championships held at 5 clubs in the local area I live in, all less than a 30 minute drive.

I do not understand why the members of USPSA continue to ignore the potential of USPSA, based on the success of sports like golf (golfers have a lot in common with shooters), and continue to shoot themselves in the foot to keep a handful of members happy. And yes, Benos members represent a handful of USPSA members at best. USPSA is in it's infant stage and will stay there until current members step up and take every opportunity possible to grow the sport. The opinions voiced in this thread are begging for the sport to stay in the infant stage.

Since this thread is about to die anyway, I offer the above as food for thought.

I'm a B class Limited shooter with a bad knee and hip, and actually shoot my classification percentage at big matches. Obviously I'll never win a prize for my classification, but I'd really like to see an MD's biggest problem being how to deal with the 2000 people who want to shoot his match, not how to keep a handful of folks happy who generally represent everything about USPSA that keeps more than a small fraction of USPSA members from shooting big matches.

[dirtypool40]

JFD, good points, and well taken. The fact that you can shoot your classification / percentage in a major match says your a solid, scrapper, and I respect that.

We could go on and on about how the classification system is broken and encourages sandbagging. Half of it is the clubs, running only a few, old classifiers every year and half is the shooters who knowingly dog 'em or skip matches because they want a that 1st C trophy when they should be in A class. Shame on them.

We NEED new classifiers, with CURRENT hit factors coming out EVERY YEAR. Every Big match should be required to feature at least one classifier. Areas should have 2 (maybe new ones every year, with HF's set by the DIVISION winner), and the Nationals should have 4. That'd fix the sandbaggers.

That being said I know too many B's that run right with M's at local matches and lay there in the weeds, waiting, just WAITING for someone to run a match where they can steal a juicy prize for finishing 1st B. Like I said, shame on them.

That being said, the only fair ways left are Random Drawing, and Order of finish.

As to making us "Big Time"? I'm all for it. I think bigger prize tables and more non-industry involvement make us seem like a bigger deal. When I explain to non-shooters about our big matches, and they ask about our prize tables, well, we look like a pure hobby. As to "Pro's in an amateur sport", I think that's the wrong attitude, and I am one of those ameteurs. There's a tiny, handful of guys who can shoot full time, and getpaid for it. I am just a garden variety, non-pro GM, but I like testing myself against the top dogs when I can. They found a way to make their hobby a profession, and their involvement makes us seem more "big time" IMHO.

The funny things about running matches is you generally put together the kind of match you'd love to shoot, only then you don't get to shoot it...

[Vagus]

I am not sure what the Lewis method is, could some explain?

Would it not be easy to solve the sandbager situation by applying statistical means... If your match score is X% higher than your class you get bumped to the next class? I think this allows for shooters in the top of their class to have an exceptional day and still win, and if they are being honest it would be rewarding in of itself to bumped a class.

As for people that say it is just about the shooting or having fun... Well I agree, but we also should acknowledge that this is a Sport and these are Competitions and thus have Winners and furthermore winners customarily are reworded in prizes and or trophies.

If it was only about the shooting and the fun, you don't need to spend money to travel and entry fees and all that other stuff when you can shoot at any old range and old time.

Most of the other sports I can think of that work similar do prizes by class/div with means to eliminate sand bagging. I guess that isn't really adding and substance and just stating what is already known.

[tk4]

I just wish the match coordinators would publish ahead of time how they were going to reward prizes. I hate when they refuse to tell you until after the match. To me it is a huge let down to drive 5hrs to show up at a match and then have them hand you some trinkit you don't need before you even start shooting. Then it doesn't even matter how you perform. I would think the vast majority of us go to a major match to compete. If I wanted to play a game of chance(not skill) I would go to the gambling boat or buy a lottery ticket.

[dajarrel]

While prize tables are nice, I have never entered a match for any other reason than to shoot.

That being said, if you are going to have one, I really like the format the Mississippi Classic takes. There are plaques and checks given to class winners as appropriate. Then John (Heiter) does a random drawing for the prize table. It is always well stocked and you can be surprised by what you win: anything from a new STI frame to a box of lead bullets in some obscure caliber.

But it is always a lot of fun at the end of the match.

And if it isn't fun, why bother?

dj