Target not taped

[redmist10]

I've generally stayed true to the motto "never take the reshoot" if you shot a stage decently but something causes you to get a reshoot if if request one....like the following:

I'm shooting stage 1 of the 2007 Western PA match today. I'm having a decent run (not exactly burning it down but good just the same). I'm executing my plan and shooting it when I notice two holes on the target as I punch two more on it. Being a revolver shooter I have a second or two to blurt out "that target wasn't pasted" as I toss in another moon clip and begin engaging more targets. By the second shot of the new target the RO stops me and advises his cohorts that to tape the stage, I'm getting a reshoot....like it or not.

On the reshoot I hit a barrel and the .45 bullet actually slips through the side and punches out the back into a perfect A hit right next to my first A hit. Now I RARELY get a .45 to slip through a barrel. Every other time it goes in and rolls around with just enough noise to let me know to go pick up the shot - not this time .

At first I argued that there was no way I hit through the barrel - I didn't call that shot as good as I thought but it was REALLY close. The ROs were smart enough to be squirting paint on the entrance holes, edge hits (richochets) and exit holes . My bullet barely slipped in and it looked to me like a richochet to me. Then they showed me the exit hole without any paint on it. No doubt they were right = MIKE.

So my own big mouth caused me to get a reshoot...go figure . If I had just continued to shoot without saying anything I may have gotten the best two .45 holes out of the four in the A-zone and aced the stage. As it was it will probably cost me dearly.

Next time I'm going to finish the stage...then see if I'll have the option of accepting the reshoot or not.

[Kingman]

that sucks.

I have had fmj's go through, the jhp's seem to break up enough to not get the hit

[Joe4d]

On the reshoot I hit a barrel and the .45 bullet actually slips through the side and punches out the back into a perfect A hit right next to my first A hit. Now I RARELY get a .45 to slip through a barrel. Every other time it goes in and rolls around with just enough noise to let me know to go pick up the shot - not this time angry.gif .

At first I argued that there was no way I hit through the barrel rolleyes.gif - I didn't call that shot as good as I thought but it was REALLY close. The ROs were smart enough to be squirting paint on the entrance holes, edge hits (richochets) and exit holes bow.gif . My bullet barely slipped in and it looked to me like a richochet to me. Then they showed me the exit hole without any paint on it. No doubt they were right = MIKE.

So my own big mouth caused me to get a reshoot...go figure wacko.gif . If I had just continued to shoot without saying anything I may have gotten the best two .45 holes out of the four in the A-zone and aced the stage. As it was it will probably cost me dearly.

I have no idea what you were trying to say here, I also dont know how tho do the quote thing light blue box,

but anyway it doesnt matter, you dont have a choice, if for some reason the RO cant acurately score a target it's a reshoot. If there are four holes in the target and the ro knows or checks the timer and sees you only fired twice you dont get to pick the holes you want, unless the RO saw which two were yours it's a reshoot.

[mactiger]

On the reshoot I hit a barrel and the .45 bullet actually slips through the side and punches out the back into a perfect A hit right next to my first A hit. Now I RARELY get a .45 to slip through a barrel. Every other time it goes in and rolls around with just enough noise to let me know to go pick up the shot - not this time angry.gif .

At first I argued that there was no way I hit through the barrel rolleyes.gif - I didn't call that shot as good as I thought but it was REALLY close. The ROs were smart enough to be squirting paint on the entrance holes, edge hits (richochets) and exit holes bow.gif . My bullet barely slipped in and it looked to me like a richochet to me. Then they showed me the exit hole without any paint on it. No doubt they were right = MIKE.

So my own big mouth caused me to get a reshoot...go figure wacko.gif . If I had just continued to shoot without saying anything I may have gotten the best two .45 holes out of the four in the A-zone and aced the stage. As it was it will probably cost me dearly.

I have no idea what you were trying to say here, I also dont know how tho do the quote thing light blue box,

but anyway it doesnt matter, you dont have a choice, if for some reason the RO cant acurately score a target it's a reshoot. If there are four holes in the target and the ro knows or checks the timer and sees you only fired twice you dont get to pick the holes you want, unless the RO saw which two were yours it's a reshoot.

You can hit the button labeled "reply", with the quotes on it, and it will quote the post you are replying to.

As for the reshoot, if there were four A hits, on the target, there is no question, and no reshoot. I'm guessing, but I'm guessing that the RO stopped the competitor because of the distraction, not because he couldn't score the target, because he should not have been looking at the target yet. An untaped target is not automatic grounds for a reshoot, unless you can't determine the score accurately, but we've been treating ones that are untaped and plainly visible as REF, (we being the instructor corps), because the competitor basically didn't get the same course of fire as the other shooters due to the visibility of, and possible distraction caused by, an untaped target.

Troy

[boo radley]

As for the reshoot, if there were four A hits, on the target, there is no question, and no reshoot. I'm guessing, but I'm guessing that the RO stopped the competitor because of the distraction, not because he couldn't score the target, because he should not have been looking at the target yet. An untaped target is not automatic grounds for a reshoot, unless you can't determine the score accurately, but we've been treating ones that are untaped and plainly visible as REF, (we being the instructor corps), because the competitor basically didn't get the same course of fire as the other shooters due to the visibility of, and possible distraction caused by, an untaped target.

Troy

Hmm....at a big Level III match this summer, I was shooting a stage and in the middle of the next array, saw a clearly unpasted target. I stopped myself (in retrospect, big no-no), dismounted the pistol and pointed the target out the RO. He said nothing, and after a very awkward pause, I said, "well, guess I better keep shooting?", and finished the stage in a jumble, with a couple mikes, as it was a complex stage, and I was totally lost at that point.

It was a bad stage among many, so I'm not bitter, but I'm thinking the RO in my case did the *right* thing, and in the examples above, the wrong thing? But unpasted targets are common enough, I hope the rulings are consistent.

[Vulture]

If you are truley calling your shots you should not even be looking at the targets anyway. People always seem to think they are going to get screwed over when targets don't get taped. Your job as the shooter is to shoot. Worry about the BS after your done. This is actually a lesson in the mental game where you let something break your concentration. The guy before you may be shooting a 45 when you are shooting a 9mm or there may be 4 alpha's. Bottom line, just shoot. If the RO can't properly score the target you don't have a choice as to a reshoot. And it was the RO's fault for not ensuring that the targets were taped before LAMR. So let him know of your displeasure.

[boz1911]

If you are truley calling your shots you should not even be looking at the targets anyway. People always seem to think they are going to get screwed over when targets don't get taped. Your job as the shooter is to shoot. Worry about the BS after your done. This is actually a lesson in the mental game where you let something break your concentration. The guy before you may be shooting a 45 when you are shooting a 9mm or there may be 4 alpha's. Bottom line, just shoot. If the RO can't properly score the target you don't have a choice as to a reshoot. And it was the RO's fault for not ensuring that the targets were taped before LAMR. So let him know of your displeasure.

Has nothing to do with calling your shots. You see the target first and if it is unpasted then certainlly it can be a distraction. More experienced shooters don't even hesitate if they are familiar with the rules. In the last few months I've had two competitors stop to point out an unpasted target , first time I showed him the clock and the second I stopped the competitor. Being able to score the targets accurately was the deciding factor on those decisions. After both events I explained the rules to them. I will also add, I've seen the best two hits given to the shooter which is totally wrong. That is not an accurate score!

[abs]

If you are truley calling your shots you should not even be looking at the targets anyway. People always seem to think they are going to get screwed over when targets don't get taped. Your job as the shooter is to shoot. Worry about the BS after your done. This is actually a lesson in the mental game where you let something break your concentration. The guy before you may be shooting a 45 when you are shooting a 9mm or there may be 4 alpha's. Bottom line, just shoot. If the RO can't properly score the target you don't have a choice as to a reshoot. And it was the RO's fault for not ensuring that the targets were taped before LAMR. So let him know of your displeasure.

Has nothing to do with calling your shots. You see the target first and if it is unpasted then certainlly it can be a distraction. More experienced shooters don't even hesitate if they are familiar with the rules. In the last few months I've had two competitors stop to point out an unpasted target , first time I showed him the clock and the second I stopped the competitor. Being able to score the targets accurately was the deciding factor on those decisions. After both events I explained the rules to them. I will also add, I've seen the best two hits given to the shooter which is totally wrong. That is not an accurate score!

Sounds like we (RO's) need to do a better job of checking the stage for resets BEFORE we let the next shooter do his thing!

Edited October 14, 2007 by abs

[Adam B]

If you are truley calling your shots you should not even be looking at the targets anyway. People always seem to think they are going to get screwed over when targets don't get taped. Your job as the shooter is to shoot. Worry about the BS after your done. This is actually a lesson in the mental game where you let something break your concentration. The guy before you may be shooting a 45 when you are shooting a 9mm or there may be 4 alpha's. Bottom line, just shoot. If the RO can't properly score the target you don't have a choice as to a reshoot. And it was the RO's fault for not ensuring that the targets were taped before LAMR. So let him know of your displeasure.

Has nothing to do with calling your shots. You see the target first and if it is unpasted then certainlly it can be a distraction. More experienced shooters don't even hesitate if they are familiar with the rules. In the last few months I've had two competitors stop to point out an unpasted target , first time I showed him the clock and the second I stopped the competitor. Being able to score the targets accurately was the deciding factor on those decisions. After both events I explained the rules to them. I will also add, I've seen the best two hits given to the shooter which is totally wrong. That is not an accurate score!

Sounds like we (RO's) need to do a better job of checking the stage for resets BEFORE we let the next shooter do his thing!

That is really what is boils down to, even though you should be calling your shots, the RO carries the responsibility to make sure all of the targets are taped.

[redmist10]

As for the reshoot, if there were four A hits, on the target, there is no question, and no reshoot. I'm guessing, but I'm guessing that the RO stopped the competitor because of the distraction, not because he couldn't score the target, because he should not have been looking at the target yet. An untaped target is not automatic grounds for a reshoot, unless you can't determine the score accurately, but we've been treating ones that are untaped and plainly visible as REF, (we being the instructor corps), because the competitor basically didn't get the same course of fire as the other shooters due to the visibility of, and possible distraction caused by, an untaped target.

Troy

I was shooting revolver and went empty after firing two shots on this target. The target had four holes on it (two from the last competitor, two from me - both .45 caliber holes). During my reload I mumbled "that target wasn't pasted" and then I kept shooting...at that point the RO yelled "stop" and gave me a reshoot. During the reshoot I hit a barrel and it passed through which = a mike since the barrel was theorhetically "hard cover."

The end result - my mike partially cost me a win at the match (lost my 21 match points).

[redmist10]

This is actually a lesson in the mental game where you let something break your concentration.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE!

[boo radley]

In the last few months I've had two competitors stop to point out an unpasted target , first time I showed him the clock and the second I stopped the competitor. Being able to score the targets accurately was the deciding factor on those decisions. After both events I explained the rules to them. I will also add, I've seen the best two hits given to the shooter which is totally wrong. That is not an accurate score!

Boz1911 & all, so I'm still confused.

When do you -- as an RO -- stop the shooter, because you (and/or the shooter?) notice an unpasted target, and when do you say nothing, and let the shooter continue shooting the stage? Thx

[dajarrel]

Boz1911 & all, so I'm still confused.

When do you -- as an RO -- stop the shooter, because you (and/or the shooter?) notice an unpasted target, and when do you say nothing, and let the shooter continue shooting the stage? Thx

I would think that you let the shooter shoot the course. If, during scoring, you can't determine which hits belong to the shooter, tape it up and reshoot it. Besides, as an RO, you are supposed to be watching the shooter and his/her gun handling, not the targets.

FWIW

dj

[foxtrotuniformlima]

In the last few months I've had two competitors stop to point out an unpasted target , first time I showed him the clock and the second I stopped the competitor. Being able to score the targets accurately was the deciding factor on those decisions. After both events I explained the rules to them. I will also add, I've seen the best two hits given to the shooter which is totally wrong. That is not an accurate score!

Boz1911 & all, so I'm still confused.

When do you -- as an RO -- stop the shooter, because you (and/or the shooter?) notice an unpasted target, and when do you say nothing, and let the shooter continue shooting the stage? Thx

I'm no RO but I would never stop a shooter for an unpasted/taped target. As a shooter, I would not stop either. Just keep shooting. If there are 4 A's, so be it. 2 A's & 2 C's, well then, they have some figuring to do. All the same caliber holes ? Best 2 go to me.

Now, if was my job to paste the targets before I shot,

[LadyinBlue]

I had an interesting experience at the 2007 multi-gun nationals earlier this month. It was on stage 3, I Like Floppers (shotgun only), comstock scoring...9 rounds (slugs)...45 points...8 IPSC targets and 1 PP activating 2 clamshells with no shoots. You had to shoot from behind a vehicle at about 20 yards. When the scoring was underway, the RO calls a Mike one 1 of my targets, luckily the guy tapeing says "what about this?". There is a D hit high on the right shoulder of the target just barely breaking the perforation of the target area. The RO says, "oh that was there from before and it didn't get taped". As pleasant as I can possible speak I said, "RO, the targets should have been checked and taped before I shot...you have to give me hit". After a discussion with the CRO on the stage I did get credit for the D hit. (which is much better than a miss on a stage like this)

Now my question to myself is, should I have requested a reshoot instead of taking the D hit? My experience and time with shooting shotgun is very minimal (probably because I have to shoot lefty) and I was shooting 20 gauge until 3 weeks before the nationals when I switched to 12 gauge. I do think that if you get to shoot a stage twice you will have the advantage of experience on the second run. But I was not fully confident that I could shoot it better considering the aforementioned. Sometimes a re-shoot can be a crap-shoot.

[Scott R]

2 A's & 2 C's, well then, they have some figuring to do. All the same caliber holes ? Best 2 go to me.

That is not what the rule book says.

[vluc]

US9.1.4 Unrestored targets - If, following completion of a course of fire

by a previous competitor, one or more targets have not been

properly patched or taped for the competitor being scored, the

Range Officer must judge whether or not an accurate score can

be determined. If there are extra scoring hits or questionable

penalty hits thereon, and it is not obvious which hits were made

by the competitor being scored, the affected competitor must be

ordered to reshoot the course of fire.

8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this

command at any time during the course of fire. The competitor

must immediately cease firing, stop moving and wait for further

instructions from the Range Officer.

Going by the language, it states "following the completion of a course of fire". I found no language that indicates the RO must stop a competitor. Can they stop them? Sure. Guess it depends on the RO and what he/she/they see(s) as they run the shooter.

Edited October 15, 2007 by vluc

[redmist10]

Slight disclaimer: after the fact -

The RO's at this match were GREAT and did a TERRIFIC job. Should the target have been taped? Sure, but our squad forgot to tape it and the RO's forgot to check it - not a huge deal. I have no complaints with how the match turned out although I do wish I would not have hit the barrel the second time through but there should be no indictment of this crew. I merely brought up the topic out of curiousity since I am not a certified RO yet and have limited knowledge on this sort of thing.

The comments received so far have been very interesting and enlightening. Next time, I'll just shoot it and then mention it.

[boz1911]

In the last few months I've had two competitors stop to point out an unpasted target , first time I showed him the clock and the second I stopped the competitor. Being able to score the targets accurately was the deciding factor on those decisions. After both events I explained the rules to them. I will also add, I've seen the best two hits given to the shooter which is totally wrong. That is not an accurate score!

Boz1911 & all, so I'm still confused.

When do you -- as an RO -- stop the shooter, because you (and/or the shooter?) notice an unpasted target, and when do you say nothing, and let the shooter continue shooting the stage? Thx

In the first case, it was a somewhat experienced shooter(approx 1 year) and when we came to the target I was able to see two alphas before he was about to shoot. After a having a rulebook for that year he should have known not to quit shooting therefore, without delay, I simply showed him the clock. The target was accurately scored after he completed the run.

Second instance was a brand new shooter (1st or 2nd night) and he absolutely stopped and rather than him trying to decipher why the clock was staring him in the face and doing something uncalled for I went ahead and stopped him. Also he and the previous shooter were shooting 9mm and I could not see the target before he shot unlike the first instance. I know I should have made shooter B continue and sort it out afterwards but this was only our weekly Tuesday night match and he had no clue of the rules.

I also agree the RO should verify targets beforehand but again this is our Tuesday night indoor match and we are under some time limitations, so normally I check the ones easily visible to my old eyes and rely somewhat on the people pasting.

[vluc]

Slight disclaimer: after the fact -

The RO's at this match were GREAT and did a TERRIFIC job.

Thank you. I was not at Stage 1 but Stage 7. On behalf of them, I'll pass the compliment on!

[boo radley]

I had an interesting experience at the 2007 multi-gun nationals earlier this month. [....]Now my question to myself is, should I have requested a reshoot instead of taking the D hit?

That's an interesting anecdote, because...why wouldn't the rule VLUC quotes below (9.1.4) be in effect? Should it not have been a reshoot, regardless?

I guess the more subtle question is: what constitutes the RO's ability to judge whether or not an accurate score can be determined? On the one hand, an edge hit that has to be studied (like your shoulder 'D' hit) would probably be remembered by the RO and/or person pasting the stage. On the proverbial other hand...who is to say how accurate the RO's memory is? But I don't see how it was ultimately scored */D.

CRO finds RO's argument convincing, and completely disbelieves your argument: target scored */Mike

CRO finds both arguments convincing, or neither convincing: reshoot

CRO finds your argument convincing, and totally disbelieves RO: target scored */D.

Like Redmist, I've learned my lesson about never stopping. But if I'd previously been stopped a couple times, mid-stage by an RO, when they saw a pasted target...it would be that much harder to keep shooting. I also think there's a lot of misunderstanding around this rule -- I've frequently heard "best two...", and known shooters who think the "blow the paster off" trick, if target is close enough, is legit.

[vluc]

Slight disclaimer: after the fact -

Sure, but our squad forgot to tape it and the RO's forgot to check it - not a huge deal.

Or it was taped, it was checked, and they came off. Some of that was happening (reference the now-closed paster thread).

[redmist10]

Slight disclaimer: after the fact -

The RO's at this match were GREAT and did a TERRIFIC job.

Thank you. I was not at Stage 1 but Stage 7. On behalf of them, I'll pass the compliment on!

Please do - I think we were all a bit puzzled over what should occur but since he stopped me there was not much else to do...I feel bad for starting to argue about the hit in the barrel during the reshoot; however as soon as they showed me the exit hole without a blue dot on it I had no reason to doubt them. They were super nice and I could tell they felt bad afterwards but hey, I shot the barrel, not them . It's part of the game. I think we were all just wondering amongst ourselves what the "right" call would be regarding the rule book...so I posted it to get commentary. Glad I did. Seems like this happens on occasion.

Or it was taped, it was checked, and they came off. Some of that was happening (reference the now-closed paster thread).

Nope, sadly, It was the fifth target and I was looking at the target and saw two holes before I shot that target...hate to admit that but it drew my attention away from the front sight. The target was also too far away for me to have blown them off with the muzzle blast of a shot.

Edited October 16, 2007 by redmist10

[JFD]

I think you're being a little too generous to say an RO who stopped you over an unpasted target was doing a terrific job. That's something I'd expect to happen at a local match where non-ROs tend to hold the timer at times. There are very few instances where the RO can stop you, and an unpasted target isn't one of them.

It was a bad call that resulted in your "barrel incident" during the reshoot that may or may not have been needed. Your "big mouth" should have had nothing to do with it.

Did someone let this RO know he made an error stopping you? Hopefully so, as mistakes can happen, but they should be learning experiences.

[redmist10]

I think you're being a little too generous to say an RO who stopped you over an unpasted target was doing a terrific job. That's something I'd expect to happen at a local match where non-ROs tend to hold the timer at times. There are very few instances where the RO can stop you, and an unpasted target isn't one of them.

It was a bad call that resulted in your "barrel incident" during the reshoot that may or may not have been needed. Your "big mouth" should have had nothing to do with it.

Did someone let this RO know he made an error stopping you? Hopefully so, as mistakes can happen, but they should be learning experiences.

On the whole the guys did a terrific job. Not to get side-tracked by this comment but they were volunteers and I have no idea if any of them had "big match" experience." There was nothing to be gained by complaining at that point. The reshoot incident was unfortunate there is no doubt but overall they earned a passing grade in my book. If it were the Nationals and I were a M or GM I guess I would understand pitching a fit but..... Looking back I'm glad I posted this so the exchange of information can take place. Maybe someone working a bigger match next year will read this and not make the same mistake. I know I've learned to keep on shootin'