Staging weapons down range?

[mcb]

So I recently shot a club level multi-gun match and on several of the stages they had us stage loaded weapons down range in front of the shooter. Is this allowed? I briefly looked through the multi-gun rules and saw nothing about the location of staged weapons. I might have missed the rule though.

The reason I ask is on one particular stage that used all three guns one of the competitors in my squad ended up shooting his own shotgun.

The stage started with the shooter using his rifle, His pistol and shotgun were stage down range on two separate tables. With the rifle you were to shoot a series of steel plates from behind the table your rifle started on and then moving forward to engage a few close paper targets. After advancing the rifle was placed in a safe barrel and the shotgun was retrieved from a table next to the barrel. The shooter at the start had knelt down behind the table where his rifle had started and engage the array of steel targets as he progress across the array he shot at a target but due to having knelt down and the difference between his line of sight and bore of the rifle his bullet struck the stock of his shotgun. Even standing your bullets were only passing a foot or two above your shotgun on one or two targets.

He was not trying to his the shotgun he didn't even see his shotgun due to the hight of the sights. The loaded shotgun did a nice spin on the table and was point back at the shooter, RO and several spectators. Needless to say there was an immediate cease fire and the unsafe shotgun dealt with. The shotgun survived but will need a new stock.

The RO DQ the shooter. I am assuming breaking the 180 with the shotgun??? The shooter argued that he should not have been DQ as the problem was caused by a bad stage design. I was not around to hear the result of the discussion with the RM and the shooter left the match not having a shotgun to finish the match.

So is it legal to stage weapons down range were they might be struck by round that misses a target? This seems unsafe and unwise to me. Not to mention how distracting it is while shooting and trying to keep track of were your staged weapon are so you don't accidentally shoot them with a pass through or similar. I would love to hear what you think. If you want I have pictures of the stages I can post tonight if you think they will help the discussion.

Thanks

mcb

Edited October 2, 2007 by mcb

[Larry White]

Excepionaly poor stage design. Should never happen. This is not a result of the rules, its a total lack of common sence.---------------Larry

[uscbigdawg]

Ditto! 100% Horrible stage design.

Rich

[Merlin Orr]

(insert shaking head icon - twice)

Once for stage design - one for the DQ of the shooter.

[mcb]

Thanks guys I have to agree bad stage design. I am just surprised there is no rule to keep such a stage from existing. Loaded guns down range just seems like a bad idea.

Thanks

mcb

[mwx40x40]

I agree bad stage design, but it's also why I prefer 3-gun to multi-gun. Multi-gun presents more opportunity for something to go wrong, than any other thing we do. That being said, I shoot multi-gun whenever I get a chance.

[J-Ho]

+100 on the poor stage design. The shoot is also at fault however. He should ALWAYS be aware of his muzzle. Being aware of the sights just doen't cut it. Any multigun stage i've seen, if we had weapons staged downrange, we engaged targets several degress off the line to the staged weapon, at least 15' or so. The RO was probably right to DQ the guy, but the club needs to DQ the stage designer.

[J-Ho]

Thanks guys I have to agree bad stage design. I am just surprised there is no rule to keep such a stage from existing. Loaded guns down range just seems like a bad idea.

Thanks

mcb

If there isn't a rule preventing it, make one. This is multi gun, there are not "real" rules. Pretty much every major match has it's own rules. Granted most are pretty similar, but there isn't a governing body like IDPA or USPSA. I've shot at several club level matches, some had mag limits, some didn't allow loaded guns to be abandoned, some were just plain scary. If the rules at your club are a problem, bring it up. There's is nothing stopping your club from making a new rule.

[uscbigdawg]

Thanks guys I have to agree bad stage design. I am just surprised there is no rule to keep such a stage from existing. Loaded guns down range just seems like a bad idea.

Thanks

mcb

I disagree that it's a bad idea. The number of shooters at matches like the SOF, SMM3G, RM3G, Ft. Benning, et. al. have shown that it is no more dangerous than anything else we do. Proper stage design and range management is the key here.

Rich

[Joe4d]

Well bullets never miss,,, they allways hit something. If you pick up the gun you're responsible for where the bullet goes. Yes probably not the best of stage designs, but come on, the shooter knew where his shotgun was, he placed it there and was expected to retrieve it on the clock I am sure. It's not like the RO hid it before the stage. If the stage was so jacked up that it couldnt be shot safely the shooter had a duty to refuse to shoot the stage until it was fixed.

[Rob Boudrie]

This is multi gun, there are not "real" rules.

There are provisional multigun rules posted on the USPSA web site.

[chendersby]

This is multi gun, there are not "real" rules.

There are provisional multigun rules posted on the USPSA web site.

Wow Rob you handled that with great restraint. I would have answered "what the hell do you mean there are no Multigun rules? USPSA has worked very hard to establish rules for Multi gun!" But that's just me.

[kurtm]

I have shot my own shotgun many times! Even tried to give it away once recently, BUT NEVER with another gun! I would have told the designer to pound sand if I was shooting that close to my own gear. What a terible design, and call on the D.Q. KURTM

[bgary]

multigun rules posted on the USPSA web site

...and those rules specify the conditions under which a gun may be "staged" downrange of the shooter.

See MG 8.1, in particular...

Bruce

Edited October 3, 2007 by bgary

[J-Ho]

This is multi gun, there are not "real" rules.

There are provisional multigun rules posted on the USPSA web site.

USPSA is not everything. I don't want to start that argument here. I know a lot of clubs out there shoot USPSA 3 gun rules but there are probably more that use IMGAish rules. There are even a lot of IDPAish 3 gun clubs. Usually when I hear "multi gun" my brain goes into the various IMGA type rules. Personally, I like having all the different rule sets. It's fun being able to go to USPSA one weekend and then IDPA the next.

I don't think having a single umbrella over 'multigun' is a good idea. Just look at the success of the major 3 gun matches. Superstition, Rocky Mountain, the old SOF, DPMS, USPSA Nationals, and even MGM Ironman. If all these had one specific set of rules, some of the fun and quirkyness would be taken out of some of these matches.

Just as with pistolas, please remember there are some of us who shoot other sports out there.

Edited October 3, 2007 by J-Ho

[chendersby]

Did not mean to start anything by my post either, See But your comment on multigun rules exposes a real problem. USPSA has a rule book for a reason. Liability being one of them. Our clubs follow the rules in order to be affiliated with a larger organization. This is necessary for many clubs to be able to have matches at all. Internationally affiliation with IPSC and it's rule book and structure is the only reason shooters in many countries can even have firearms. The potential problem with IMGA"ish" matches is there is no real organization backing them and how the matches are run. The most frustrating thing for us at USPSA is that all the "outlaw" matches use our rules for anthing that is not covered by their rules. I have shot and will continue to shoot multigun in all it's forms but I would never want the liability of running a match without the backing of an organization like USPSA.

Now to keep on topic : horrible course design and the DQ I am not really sure what to think. I think the DQ sucks but it probably should stand. But really, the offense that brought it about never should have had the posibility of happening in the first place.

Edited October 3, 2007 by chendersby

[mcb]

Lots of good replies, thanks!

It was a USPSA multi-gun match so USPSA rule would govern the match. MG 8.1 and 10.5.2 would make it seem that the competitor should be DQ'ed but it still sucks IMHO. They give you a nice table to use as a rest but if you use it your likely to hit your own shotgun part way through the array. Seems like a DQ trap to me, an others from the responses.

I shot after the competitor that hit his shotgun and did not use the table as a rest, in fact I ended up moving right to left about 12ft to ensure that my rounds never passed directly over my own shotgun. On one hand I agree the shooter is responsible for his rounds on the other hand stages that require me to worry about hitting my own equipment are not very enjoyable. Just seeing another competitor hit his own gun unsettled me for that stage. It may be the best stage in the world but if I am shooting it worried I might hit my own weapon I am not going to enjoy it.

It seems like there should be more guild lines to where and how guns are staged. The USPSA Multi-gun rules seem lacking in this area.

Thanks

mcb

[kurtm]

Thank goodness it wan't one of those outlaw matches, (of which predate USPSA's sojurn into 3-gun/multi-gun by a nice round 10 years so who is the "outlaw"). Think of the liability that would have caused! Thank goodness that the thick rule book saved the day and only the shotgun got shot. If it had been one of theose TERRIBLE outlaw matches the table might have got a couple too. And while we are on it, how is it that all the "outlaw" matches fill to the brim every year and the USPSA Multi-Gun/3-gun NEVER HAS??

[GentlemanJim]

Looks like poor design was the culprit...something we should all look at before we shoot

Jim

[mcb]

Thank goodness it wan't one of those outlaw matches, (of which predate USPSA's sojurn into 3-gun/multi-gun by a nice round 10 years so who is the "outlaw"). Think of the liability that would have caused! Thank goodness that the thick rule book saved the day and only the shotgun got shot. If it had been one of theose TERRIBLE outlaw matches the table might have got a couple too. And while we are on it, how is it that all the "outlaw" matches fill to the brim every year and the USPSA Multi-Gun/3-gun NEVER HAS??

I was only referring to it being a USPSA match so every one would know what rule set we were using I did not mean to degrade any other rule set. Had the match been using rules from one of the other multi-gun organization I would have referred to their rules and questioned them on the legality of placing loaded guns down range.

mcb

[Bryan 45]

I'm no where near as seasoned as a lot of you guys, but I just wanted to comment...

I agree it's bad stage design, but I also agree w/ the RO on D/Qing the shooter. If a shooter engages steel at less than 8 yards, he goes home, right? It's all about where your rounds are going.

Thinking back to the PRACTICAL part of our sport, what if the shooter's shotgun had been another "friendly" that was down range? I bet he learned a valuable lesson on sight offset.

[J-Ho]

Thank goodness it wan't one of those outlaw matches, (of which predate USPSA's sojurn into 3-gun/multi-gun by a nice round 10 years so who is the "outlaw"). Think of the liability that would have caused! Thank goodness that the thick rule book saved the day and only the shotgun got shot. If it had been one of theose TERRIBLE outlaw matches the table might have got a couple too. And while we are on it, how is it that all the "outlaw" matches fill to the brim every year and the USPSA Multi-Gun/3-gun NEVER HAS??

Even though I agree with you Kurt, be nice. I started this whole rules/no rules thing and I don't want to get another thread closed.

Back to topic.

This is a good illustration of why all shooters need to walk stages and think about EVERY aspect of the stage. God knows stage designers and RO's aren't perfect. (Just don't tell some of them ) We need to watch out for this sort of thing, whatever the rule set. Introducing staged guns is just one more thing to watch out for, and if everyone, including shooters and RO's, pay attention then we can avoid unfortunate incidents like this.

OK I've had my say. Kurt, go get 'em.

[Jaxshooter]

This is obviously a case of very poor stage design. It should have been caught by the MD and RM on a walk thru before the match started. I shoot the Ft Benning 3 Gun and have staged guns downrange and never had to think about where they were when shooting the stage. We also do the same at our local club matches and have never run into this.

[scirocco38s]

Your right about 1 thing the DQ should stand, But not for the shooter, they should have dq'ed the stage designer and match director that let the stage be run that way.

[kurtm]

A EFFEN MEN Scirocco!! I love how some folk jumped right in and spouted out the good old USPSA is the ONLY way to be safe etc. Then come to find out...ER...WAIT... this WAS a USPSA match. Hey Folks Stupid is as stupid does.. and to think that "because it,s USPSA we aint stupid" because we gots us a great big ol rule book, just don't wash. We are all responsible for the safety of any stage, shooter, match!! ANYONE can miss one once in a while..."big ol rule book or not". I will leave you with this thought. The quintessential "OUTLAW 3 gun match", Soldier of Fortune, turned 25 years old in 2002, (the first USPSA NATIONALS in Glenrose Texas was 1993) and Narry a gun was shot, competitor hurt by projectiles, or safety compromised! It was put on by some of the original teaching staff at the original GunSite under Jeff Cooper...Who USPSA ande IPSC came from, so we are all cousins from the same roots!! The only difference I see is that the USPSA flag can now sport a shotgun tab for a "kill". Kurt Miller ( note whole name, I aint hiding behind no alias)