2008 Rocky Mountain 3-Gun - September 4-6

[Benelli Chick]

As we announced at the match, we have the dates for the 2008 Rocky Mountain 3-Gun!

The dates are September 4-6, 2008 at the beautiful NRA Whittington Center!

The schedule will be the same as this year with two full days of shooting on Thursday and Friday and just over a half a day shooting on Saturday with awards following.

This year, we will be running entirely separate divisions:

Open, Tactical Scope, Tactical Iron...and then there's He-Man

Right now, we're thinking of He-Man Modern (.308 scoped rifle, 12 gauge pump, and any .45 pistol) and He-Man Classic (non-AR style classic rifle .308, 30-06 or similar, 12 gauge pump, and a 1911 style, single stack .45)

Feel free to share your input.

The concerns:

We only had 14 Tactical Iron shooters this year. Will more of you shoot Iron if they're completely separate?

He-Man was split about 50-50, with only about 35 He-Man shooters, total.

I worry about divisions with under 20 shooters.

Any ideas?

We are starting the sponsor hunt a lot earlier this year. Guy Hawkins is going to work on it again and he's an ACE! We think we'll have a much better prize table in 2008. Any of you sponsors who'd like to sign up, please feel free to contact us!

rm3gun@yahoo.com

We won't be posting the application until January! I need a bit of a break!

We'll post it on our website: www.rm3g.com

AND here on Enos!

We may fill up more quickly this year, so be sure to mark your calendars!

Thanks again to all the staff, sponsors, the Whittington Center and you shooters for making this year's match such a success!

Special thanks to my husband JJ for his great stage design and all his support!

Have a great year, and we hope to see you in September 2008!

[BritinUSA]

You're just a sucker for punishment aren't you

[VNGunfighter]

Right now, we're thinking of He-Man Modern (.308 scoped rifle, 12 gauge pump, and any .45 pistol) and He-Man Classic (non-AR style classic rifle .308, 30-06 or similar, 12 gauge pump, and a 1911 style, single stack .45)

Feel free to share your input.

The concerns:

We only had 14 Tactical Iron shooters this year. Will more of you shoot Iron if they're completely separate?

He-Man was split about 50-50, with only about 35 He-Man shooters, total.

I worry about divisions with under 20 shooters.

Any ideas?

Denise,

If you are worried about divisions with less than 20 shooters, then don't make more divisions-The creation of a whole new division would split and would want to grow more heads later down the line I'm afraid.

Would an original Armalite AR-10, be considered a "classic"???

I know the FAL'S, HK clones, Garand's, O3 's and the BAR's would in your classic class?-Also in this class would you have to use a classic SG, and a 1911 with the old "thumbnail sights"??

The whole idea of HM was to get those old MAJOR caliber blasters out of the closet-The rules were straight forward and simple and there were no issues with class (s)/divisions and so on.

Your idea of multiple divisions in HM are in the same lines of another ongoing and much bigger shooting sport, but not as high speed as 3G............

Just some thoughts.

-J

[Big Bore]

There were two of us that put a scope on for this match and would shoot irons next year. So add us to the list.

Thanks,

[StealthyBlagga]

I have shot Tac Iron for the last 2 RM3G matches. Although I did OK this year (took a nice 1911 off the prize table), I felt my 42 year old eyes were letting me down a bit. I had difficulty acquiring the actual targets beyond 200 yards. My strategy was to index off the big white backing boards and lay down an enormous amount of rapid firepower. Luckily, this strategy worked out well, much to the amusement of my squad mates . However, I will be trying my hand at Tac Scope in our local AZ matches for the next several months, to determine whether actually seeing the target agrees with me .

If you want to encourage more iron sight shooters (Tac Iron or HM), my advice would be to pay careful attention to making the longer targets easier to see and more equitable. This means (i) backing boards centered on the target, (ii) targets painted before each squad, ideally before each cluster of iron shooters, and (iii) targets placed so that they will be lit the same throughout the day (i.e. away from shadowy areas). You obviously can't do anything about the weather, but whatever else you can do to make the targets clearly visible when peeking through a tiny aperture would be very helpful.

I don't personally believe that separating Tac Iron entirely will make a difference... the top guys are so good, they are shooting near Tac Scope scores anyway. Keeping Tac Iron in with the Tac Scope guys makes for a richer prize table to plunder.

Please take the above as constructive advice. Thanks to you, JJ and the rest of the crew, as well as the sponsors, for treating us to such a great match this year. I can't wait to be back in 2008 .

[bigbrowndog]

I agree with Jimmy, making more divisoins simply waters down the participants, and changing the rules for current classes is ridiculous. Tac optic came out of Irons, because the right people whined to the right people......(uspsa) For IMGA the whining was heard because the list of optics allowed didn't include someones favorite scope, they they used in battle, or on the street.

Shooting Iron sights is TOUGH, if it was easy more people would be doing it. To say that the top shooters are shooting irons at the same speed as the top shooters, shooting scopes is simply untrue!!.....once you get past 100yds or the targets become shaded or grey, its damn hard to see the target with the naked eye. especially when 2 or 3 squads before you have shot and the targets aren't repainted.

HM, should be OPTIC free, Any .44 cal. handgun or larger, and a manually operated 12ga. shotgun. If you want to shoot an optic then shot TAC optic, if you want to shoot an auto shotgun then shoot in TAC division, if you want to shoot something smaller than .44 cal handgun...........................Choose another class to shoot in!!!!!

on next years application why don't we just have a blank spot on the division you want to shoot and everyone can just right down their own very specific division that they feel they can shoot in and win................Ex. Firefighter, irons, pump shotgun, owns a big dog, from texas.

Trapr

[Religious Shooter]

The dates are September 4-6, 2008 at the beautiful NRA Whittington Center!

Dayum. I guess you guys don't like accountants or other people who have stuff due during the first week of the month.

Oh well. Maybe next next year. Or if I get another job.

[jbullgpd]

When in doubt, KISS

Keep

It

Simple

Stupid

No I am not calling anyone stupid, its just the cliche'. Anyways I have to agree with the other guys, More divisions separates it even further. Original heavy metal as it was designed, tac scope, tac iron, and open. Wether irons was its own division or not I think is a matter of opinion again. I shoot irons, I missed this years due to relocation and new job. I like that the irons portion is scored seperate giving us irons shooters credit where credit is due for points but we do shoot the same shotty and handgun as the rest of tac division. Unless it is easier on you guys to score us seperately. As for prize table, I dunno, 2006 I think i was close to top 5 irons or right in there but 20-21st overall in tactical. Hard to say if it would have gotten me a better prize or not. Don't really shoot it for the prizes though, thats just a perk if ya do well. I just like shooting irons and being able to beat out some optics shooters . My 2 cents......

[bigbrowndog]

A point I forgot to make, is that unless you are going to increase the amount of shooters able to shoot the match, adding divisions is only going to LESSEN, the amount of shooters that are already in the available divisions...............its simple division.

Trapr

[Heavy Metal Only]

Hey guys I think what would really help is if rm3g could get more than 10-20 people to come and help that would be really good. I don't think some of you realize how hard it was to help get everything together. Also stealthyblagga, Dude you don't know how hardit was to keep a squad running on time less having to walk down range to paint a target after every squad. You know some targets were up to 500 yards and no rifle steel was closer than 125 yards. I'm not trying to pick on anyone believe me, without the help of all squads helping with the reset we would be having a 4 day match instead of 2 1/2 day. Most matches are relitivly easy ,but this particular match was a bear. Please all shooters try to help with volenterring your valuble time, I'm sure the Johnsons would really be grateful.

[kurtm]

Lots o divisions in the "slower paced 3-gun" that VCgunfighter alluded to, called Cowboy Action Shooting, the list is long and endless, is that what we want for this sport? Ironman used to be SIMPLE, now there are more rules than a hound dog has fleas! I guess I just don't see how shooting a 40 ounce steel gun is more manly than shooting a 26 ounce plastic framed gun in .45. as for optics in Heavy Metal... that only makes it an AR-10 class, it is hard to succesfully scope anything else. I say leave it the way it was intended.

As for Iron sights; if it is a dieing division drop it. Although I dearly love shooting iron and my "very young" 48 year old eyes can still see the side of a hill, I can use an optic as well. Matter of fact after shooting iron for so long it feels like cheating! There are still pleanty of venues which have an iron division so drop it. Make the match Open, Tactical and Heavy Metal, if you want to shoot iron shoot Heavy Metal. Increasing the divisions only waters down the match. KURTM

[BPiatt]

As for Iron sights; if it is a dieing division drop it. Although I dearly love shooting iron and my "very young" 48 year old eyes can still see the side of a hill, I can use an optic as well. Matter of fact after shooting iron for so long it feels like cheating! There are still pleanty of venues which have an iron division so drop it. Make the match Open, Tactical and Heavy Metal, if you want to shoot iron shoot Heavy Metal. Increasing the divisions only waters down the match. KURTM

+1 from me.. I plan on attending next year and would shoot either division.

Bruce P

[StealthyBlagga]

Hey guys I think what would really help is if rm3g could get more than 10-20 people to come and help that would be really good. I don't think some of you realize how hard it was to help get everything together. Also stealthyblagga, Dude you don't know how hardit was to keep a squad running on time less having to walk down range to paint a target after every squad. You know some targets were up to 500 yards and no rifle steel was closer than 125 yards. I'm not trying to pick on anyone believe me, without the help of all squads helping with the reset we would be having a 4 day match instead of 2 1/2 day. Most matches are relitivly easy ,but this particular match was a bear. Please all shooters try to help with volenterring your valuble time, I'm sure the Johnsons would really be grateful.

I weas not wanting to criticize - I RO at the SMM3G and know how hard the work is. The original question was how to encourage more iron sight shooters, and I wanted to make everyone understand that unpainted targets make life harder for the iron sight guys, and that this may be a contributing factor to the declining interest. My inability to see the targets through a small A2 aperture is why I will be experimenting with Tac Scope in 2008.

[Brian Payne]

I had originally signed up for iron sight division for this years RM3G, then I saw that several of the targets would be at 350+ yrds. I felt very unqualified to try making those shots with iron sights since I had never shot at anything beyond 300 yrds. with irons or scope. I switched to Tac. Optic division and still had trouble at the long range targets.

I enjoyed the opportunity to shoot targets at distance. The problem I have is that I don't have a range that allows practicing at this kind of distance. So the only time you get to shoot targets at that distance is when you get to the stage and the RO tells you to "load and make ready". I think a lot of shooters (including myself) don't realize how accurate iron sights can be at distant targets. Lack of confidence in our own abilities with iron sights contributes to the lack of shooters in that division.

Then to be real honest, I shoot the Tac Optic division because I really like to shoot with the scope. I can't articulate why this division holds so much appeal to me, it is just the way it is. Maybe it is because when I break the shot while using a scope I "expect" to get a hit, when I break the shot using iron sights I am "surprised" to get the hit. The scope is my confidence multiplier I guess.

As far as division go. Have whatever division and rules you want. Just keep the scores and prize table seperate from each other. The four main divisions seem to cover most of the shooters wants and desires. Open, Tac Op, Tac Iron, HM. I am sure if you started the HM Op division there would be some shooters in that one also.

[bigbrowndog]

Seeing targets is a BIG problem with iron sight divisions. I just got back from a match, where the targets were originally white on a green field, I had no problem hitting the ones I could see but 2 of them were damn near impossible, very few shooters in my squad hit them easily, and most had optics. they were not small or real far (280-300) just hard to see.

At other matches, I know that on several occasions shooters have offered to go downrange and paint targets, and been told........NO.

Well the first 1 or 2 squads had them nicely painted for them, the remaining squads have to deal with gray targets on mottled colored backgrounds. This is not fair, for all. Most matches have ATV's it would not be difficult to use one to repaint targets, while the walkthru is going on.

my 2 cents, on repainting targets.

Trapr

[SinistralRifleman]

If you do Classic anything make it any guns made before the end of WWII

[jackboyd]

I am in favor of separating Tac Iron and Tac Scope. The change would give us a true champion for each division.

No more confusion over how the scoring system affects the stage points when shooters using very different equipment are separated, but still in the same division.

If you don't think that would be an improvement, try explaining to a non 3-gunner how it works:

"Well, Joe beat my time on the stage, but I win because I shot a higher percentage of the iron sight highest score than he did of the scope highest score ..."

[TSOL1]

I agree with Trapr. Hm should just be open to Iron sighted rifles. I shot my first rm3g last year( 2006hm) I brought 4 more guys with me this year and we all shot rion sighted. I have 3 more that want to go next year. Please do not go the way of some other 3 gun matches by mandated which tools we use to compete with. I stopped shooting Hm in a large 3 gun match in Az because I was required to use a 1911. I think painting the long range targets would go a long way in speeding up the stage times. Again the match was great.

Jason

[GentlemanJim]

On one stage at RM3gun the steel target was at 500yds across a valley and the other ones were seperated by hundreds of yards.

No roads that I know of ...going out to them.

On that stage I can see why the were not painted with every squad.

I know on my squad ...several folks took the time to repaint where we could.

Even with a scope it was not real easy to see them...so the iron guys had it extra tough!

Jim

[No.343]

Can you use ATVs at the NRA range?

[buzzworm]

I'm going to be the one going against the grain on this one. I don't see why He Man can't be run just as it was, HeMan/Iron and He Man/Scoped but with scoring and prize table seperate for each. Do it just as Tac/iron and Tac/scope are done. Same gear, same shotgun, same handgun, all the same, but with iron and scope. It was set up like that this year originally, and I think it was fine like that. I think more matches are beginning to do just that. No need to have "modern he man" and "classic" as the scoped guys will mostly use AR10 platforms and iron guys will mostly use M1a/m14 platform. They will seperate themselves as far as modern and classic go.

I know HM was originally iron only, but USPSA was also "run what ya brung" for many years, and I prefered it like that myself. Just because it started out that way doesn't mean it can't change or grow with the sport. Also, as much as I hate to admit it, the addition of some divisions has helped that other group to grow.

I don't want to see a class for everything/everyone like USPSA either, but a subclass for an already existing class such as heman is a far cry from open,limmited,limmited10,revolver,singlestack,production, etc. Heck, if you use an iron back up/close range sight on your tac rifle, (just not a second optic) just about the only difference between open and tac being a bipod, and with two 30 rd mags cinched together for support (much like a bipod) there isn't a world of difference between those two any more.

By the way, I was on stage 3, and we painted each morning, and at lunch when we could, but to tell the truth, with a white target backer behind a steel IPSC target, the contrast was so distinct that to my eyes the targets looked very much the same before and after paint at that distance.

My .02, for what it's worth.

[GentlemanJim]

Can you use ATVs at the NRA range?

Its not really a RANGE..as much as it is the side of a mountain.

several stages were in narrow canyons...its all natural terain and atvs were used where they could be.

The NRA center has real ranges...But RM 3gun is a different animal.

It was an awsome match...maybe some small glitches...but you just dont know how HARD the ROs had to work.

I hope I am able to go again!!

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

I see the problem of splitting HM into two groups being that you will have fewer shooters in each group. If we are trying to keep attendance up in each class, developing new ones is not the way to do it.

Denise, said she was worried about having a division with fewer than 20 shooters in it!! splitting up HM will cause that problem.

There is no need for Classic and Modern, leave it as it was intended, and learn to shoot Irons!!!!!

BTW, buzzworm, the iron shooters really appreciated the painting, even those of us who didn't shoot irons at the match....thanks

Trapr

Edited September 21, 2007 by bigbrowndog

[Ty Gentry]

Dumb question

Is there any color of backing that can be put up to contrast the grey color of shot steel? Flouresent yellow, hot pink. It seem like that could negate the need for repainting. Might help with low light as well. Has to work good in bright sunlight too.

As for classes/divisions, I don't much care as long as the match is held every year.

Thank you again Denise & JJ for putting on the match.

It was great.

Ty

[Heavy Metal Only]

Can you use ATVs at the NRA range?

As far as I know Mark P. brought 2, without the 1 with the trailer we would have had to hoof all those targets. On stage 3 like jim said targets up 2- 500 yards and hundreds of yards between.