USPSA Limited...Glock VS STI/SVI?

[WWJD]

What are the advantages / disadvantages of the specific gun designs?

[Jman]

i think i just had a series of small strokes

Jim

[Tattoo]

i think i just had a series of small strokes

Jim

LOL, I know........

[WWJD]

Got it - seriously though - how does a tuned safe action gun compare to single action?

[raz-0]

Got it - seriously though - how does a tuned safe action gun compare to single action?

Glock in specific? There's a tendency to feel mushy and have a weak reset.

That's just my experience from trying to like them. Nobody aorund here who shoots a glock have ponied up the bucks for any of the newer 2lb triggers though.

You can get a decent ~4lb trigger on one though that still has a reasonably healthy reset. But being hinged, it still won't feel like a 1911.

It's hard to argue with what you can do with a 1911 trigger. Closest thing to it I have had my hands on is a CZ tactical sport with the flat trigger and a good trigger job. At least in it's single action mode.

[Micah]

It's an honest question, so I will give you my honest (albeit bias) answer, but let me Tarantino it backwards:

I personally know of several Limited GM's that made it with a Glock...

...Last year's Limited champion did it with a Glock...

...are S_I's more accurate, faster, smoother, better than Glocks...I would venture to say not really.

If this were true, why do I beat most S_I shooters when divisions are combined at club matches shooting my G34 in Production?

Or why does Bob Vogel/Dave Sevigny beat most Limited/Open shooters at major matches shooting Production Glocks?

Is an S_I easier with recoil than a Glock? Absolutely! Is that something that can be overcome with proper technique? Absolutely.

Is the trigger on an S_I "better" than that of a Glock? Abso-freakin'-lutely!! Is that something that can be overcome with proper technique? Absolutely.

Are Glocks easier to fix yourself? Yup.

Are Glock mags infinitely cheaper than S_I mags? Absolutely.

Am I picking a fight? Certainly not!

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What it all boils down to is your level of commitment to competing in this sport. A $150 Hi-Point in the hands of someone who practices daily will win every time against a $4000 S_I in the hands of a casual plinker.

[XRe]

A $150 Hi-Point in the hands of someone who practices daily will win every time against a $4000 S_I in the hands of a casual plinker.

Ok.... THAT might be going a bit too far... I mean, you're suggesting the Hi-Point will actually run for the entirety of each stage, you know...

Perhaps a different answer than PBs.... Its almost entirely the Indian and not the arrow. That said, you need to make sure that what you shoot fits your hand, has good sights, and runs 132%. After that, practice practice practice. You can learn a Glock trigger - I just shot a match w/ a Glock for the first time two weeks ago, and... funny... calling shots worked exactly the same with that gun as any other. The 1911 style gun will give you a better trigger, no doubt - and if that's what you want to shoot, go for it. Shooting a Glock gives you a steeper learning curve - but if you set to it, you can shoot that gun very well, too.

So, what it actually boils down to is this. What do you want to shoot???

[Micah]

So, what it actually boils down to is this. What do you want to shoot???

To add to XRe...what kind of shooter do you want to be? When I got started in this sport, S_I's were never an option for both fiscal and knowledge reasons, so I went to Glock. If you have the funds, shoot both and make your own decision based upon your experience.

I know of many people that have had S_I's built so that they could "Finally compete and succeed!", citing it was their Glocks/XD's/ect. that have been holding them back...only to find out once they obtain the new custom built gun that their overall preformance has not improved at all after the new gun.

[dajarrel]

Great answers, guys.

I agree. It's not the platform. It's the gift/skill/commitment one brings to the sport and how much they want to put into it. When I have a new shooter I always put him/her on my G34. It's just an easy gun to shoot. As time goes by I may encourgage them to go to a more expensive gun but it's usually just to get my gun back.

FWIW

dj

[Micah]

I also want to add:

I am not some kind of Glock Nazi (those of you that know me will find that comment quite funny ), rather just someone that has seen too many people throw money at their preformance issues as opposed to rolling up their sleeves and fixing them with good ol' fashioned practice...be it dryfire (yeah, I'm a fan) or going to the range.

[Jman]

One glaring advantage for Glocks is cost. Mags, parts and home gunsmithing. S_I's are beautiful and in some cases real works of art. Last year at the area 2 Desert Classic I spotted 4 professionally tuned S_I mags. The price tag said $499.00. I just stared at them. $125.00 per mag! WWJD, I can afford them. But, we step on these things! We actually step on them. Master class shooters like Pharaoh Bender and others might benefit from having a professional pistolsmith build and maintain a stable of S_I's for them. But why? No reason at all IMHO.

Jim

[HSMITH]

I shot a Glock in a match for the LAST time today, no more. I can't do it again. Can I shoot them well? Yeah. Are they a good gun? Most definitely. Can they take you to the top? Yup. Do they work for me? Nope.

Glocks ARE harder to shoot than a lot of other platforms out there, and try as I might they just don't do it for me. I have several, and have really tried to make them work for me, but when I make an honest evaluation I have a locker full of guns I can shoot better in a match setting (draw, reload, etc). It doesn't make any sense at all to keep plugging with them when other platforms work better.

Screw what other people are doing. Screw what other people tell you to do. Find a gun that fits your hand, fits your eye, fits the budget, and go shoot the snot out of it. You will be miles ahead of others that drink the kool-aid no matter what color it might be...

EDIT: my G22 will continue on night stand duty. Didn't say I don't like them, didn't say I can't use them, did say that there are better tools for me to go win a match with.

Edited September 10, 2007 by HSMITH

[Loves2Shoot]

Skill is what wins, and you can get used to anything.

I much prefer the 1911/2011 platform because I like accuracy and it is harder to get a plastic gun to perform as well at 50 yards. I like the triggers better on a 1911/2011. I do shoot a bit better with the 1911/2011 but I regularly shoot plastic guns (XD and Glock) because the division requires it.

I have 30+ S_I mags, and if you get a few a year, it doesn't hurt that much

If the clubs you shoot have lots of close targets and few far and tight shots, you probably would never realize the benefits of a well built higher end gun.

A fancy gun won't make you a significantly better shooter, only blood sweat and tears will do that.

[EricW]

It all depends on what you like *PRACTICING* with. I love Glocks. I hate practicing with them. The slide tears up my hand. There is absolutely no hope of Glock producing anything wihth a beavertail in the coming decade. Thus, I prefer the STI/SV platform. It's a tool, not a religion. Pick the tool that suits you and shoot it into the ground.

Notice I didn't mention trigger pull. That's the *least* of my concerns overall.

Also, strongly consider the M&P. It has a lot to recommend itself.

Edited September 10, 2007 by EricW

[boz1911]

3 Words:Trigger,trigger,trigger!

[Rocket35]

Matt Burkett told me once "Never let your gear hold you back". Now even though I made Master with a Glock in both IDPA and USPSA, one cannot argue the advantages of an S_I pistol. The cost is an issue, and was for a long time for me as well. But I put in some extra time at work to afford it- because I just plain wanted to find out what I could do with a mechanically superior tool. In the last year I have owned two of them and must say I prefer them over the Glock. I have had some of my best finishes in major matches with an STI, to include a Division win. I guess my experience/advice would be to buy the best equipment you can afford and pour all the time and effort you can to win! There is no substitute for practice.

[WWJD]

I appreciate everyones honesty and humor.

What I am taking out of all this, performance wise, the trigger is the biggest differance.

Any thoughts of durability, or more specifically lifecycle? 5000+ rds on a glock?

[Rocket35]

Here is what the person that bought my Edge had to say:

just set the rig up for the gun and mags. holy crap are reloads, transitions, etc faster with this thing than with the Glock 24. I'm almost scared to shoot it now.... I might not go back to production if I do.

Long story short- it shouldn't really matter what someone else can do with a Glock- what can you do with the gun in your holster?

Edited September 10, 2007 by Rocket35

[Micah]

Any thoughts of durability, or more specifically lifecycle? 5000+ rds on a glock?

I am the only person that I know of that has worn out a Glock frame, and that was from 100's of hours of dryfire magazine reloads (done poorly, as it eroded the magwell) but Glock gave me a new frame for under $50.

With tens of thousands of rounds through my Glock, the only parts to break are the trigger spring (twice) and the trigger safety. Both were fixed for under $5.

One huge benefit to shooting a Glock is that you can buy the inexpensive replacement parts and fix virtually anything by yourself while at a match. Or if you shoot a Glock 35 in competition and have a Glock 22/23 for carry, you can cannibalize most of the parts from your carry gun and use them in your competition pistol.

[Jasonub]

Shooting for me is enjoyment.

Part of that enjoyment is having your own gun made to what you want it to be. Custom made to my specs, parts should be this brand or that, trigger should be this heavy or light with or without creep.

front sight should be this brand and this width, rear sight should be a bomar melted to the slide.

slide should be top ribbed and serated this much or that. etc etc etc

Cant do these things with a glock. If you have money to burn a custom 2011 pistol cant be beat.

[HSMITH]

A Glock will last many many tens of thousands of rounds with very minor maintenance/parts replacement. If you do have a problem it will only cost you about $20 to replace all the small parts. The tool needed to rebuild one completely is only about $8 and it is ALL user level repair. The 1911/2011 is just as easy to maintain, but parts are more expensive and need to be fitted by a competent person. A well made 2011 will last long enough to wear out a couple barrels.

EDIT: Spelling

Edited September 10, 2007 by HSMITH

[AustinMike]

I got into shooting Glocks from an economic standpoint. I wanted to play in Limited, but being fairly new to the sport I didn't want to spent thousands on a S_I rig. My first Limited gun was a factory rebuilt G22. It's been been virtually flawless in the 2 years I've shot it. Recently, I picked up a G24 in an auction and I LOVE it! I've had thoughts of eventually getting a S_I built, but one of the big questions is 5" vs. 6". Well, for me, the Glock platform has proven to be a cheap testing ground for that. My G22 (which has the same sight radius as the 1911 I started shooting with and the reason I chose it) and the longer slide gun were BOTH acquired for less than half the cost of an S_I. I would have hated to have built a 5" gun, only to realize a 6" is better for me. I also love that the parts for Glock are cheap and you can pretty much rebuild the internals at a safe area for under $50. Mags aren't as cheap as they used to be, but still way cheaper than S_I. mags.

I've shot a custom S_I in a match and honestly, for me, at my level ©, I didn't feel much advantage. Yes the trigger is much nicer, but without the additional skills that come with more experience, I can't say it improved my score. If anything, I got a little sloppy with my shots. The Glock's trigger forces me to think trigger control, feeling that reset and pulling through while keeping the sights on target. Less tendency to hose and miss, basically. It's a bit slower, but ends up being more accurate. YMMV, of course.

So, to sum up, I think the Glock is a great platform for getting into practical shooting. Don't buy new, there are plenty of good used or rebuilt guns out there. Take the money you save and buy lots of ammo to practice. Now, if I found room in my budget to spend $3k or so on a custom S_I, would I do it? Duh!

[Radical Precision Designs]

It is an interesting proposition to make a "silk purse" out of a sows ear. With enough skill and time a close product can be made, but it will never be "silk". Funny thing is that this was said about the 1911 ...

Yes, there are out there many 19/2011's that are far from a "silk purse", but because of their evolution they can presently be brought up to par and to a point surpass the quality of silk. Early on when I started customizing these "slab sided hunks of steel" you had to rumage around a lot just to find serviceable parts, and then through a lot of plastic/steel surgery make the parts for them. Now there are so many quality manufacturers of custom parts, that it is like a child in a candy store. The Glock platform is now also working in that direction in leaps and bounds. The main reason why a pistolsmith will give a hard look and a chance to a specific line of customization to any firearm is the availability of "raw maleable" materials/parts besides the original manufacturer. I could dare state that while many shooters like and insist on using Glocks as they come out of the box, most of them will soon look for some way (including after-market performance parts) to make their "plastic fantastic" do its thing even better. Heck, now we even have the CCF frames which even takes away some of the "plastic" humble origin. Then, again, I'm not that sure that plastic is necessarily demeaning. After all the 2011's found a "niche" with it.

As for the trigger's differences, IMHO it is a matter of dexterity, necessity, and will to make it work. Look at the debate between "slapping or riding" the trigger. There is a camp for both methods, and the best results are achieved with a mixture of both.

I have built some solid, heavy race guns at customer's request. I have also built some ultra-light and shorty race guns at customer's request. There is a following for both. It is part of the growing process and diversification of styles. Fact is that the lightest, shortest Open gun I have built is based on a Glock (G-32), rather than a 2011 platform. After doing some trigger magic in this Open Glock, it can do splits and transitions just as fast and accurate as my 2011 counter part. Of course, I do not posses the fastest finger in town, but either of these two different guns can cycle and shoot faster than anybody I know. Ah, yes, for my taste, I would like to see a little bit more weight on my hand to help absorb some of the continous pounding. But that can be adressed easily too.

The point is that evolution has brought the 10/2011's to their pedestal position today. The Glock platform is doing its best to occupy the pedestal next to it. There is room for two or more platforms out there. It is nice to have a choice. Besides, some of us rely on it to make a living.

[EricW]

I appreciate everyones honesty and humor.

What I am taking out of all this, performance wise, the trigger is the biggest differance.

Any thoughts of durability, or more specifically lifecycle? 5000+ rds on a glock?

I think the trigger is pretty much irrelevant to be honest. The differences are everything else:

- ease of hitting the mag button.

- pure mechanical accuracy

- comfort

The last one is HUGE. If whatever platform you're running bites you and you can't fix it within the rules, you're going to be miserable. And moreover, you're not going to practice as much. I see lots of folks running Glocks like they stole them. And I envy them. I and a lot of others simply *chose* to spend more to get some additional creature comforts. We feel it was worth the money.

You have to experimnent and see what's right for you. A used Glock is generally always the best decision when starting in the sport.

Also, 5000 rounds isn't even broke in, Glock or otherwise. I wouldn't even think of not buying something unless it had 25 to 50K and the price the buyer was asking was more than new by the time you replaced basic consumable parts.

[Radical Precision Designs]

I have seen often enough a reasoning behind spending the "hard earned money" into more ammo for practicing, rather than spending into a more refined competition gun. This applies to Glocks and any other platform.

IMHO, this is hogwash!!! It implies that practice for the sake of it can overcome "any" obstacles.

Practice indeed is essential and necessary to hone your skills and put you in the winning side. But QUALITY practice IS what will get you there. Sometimes, too often actually, many shooters literally burn their money away in smoke (powder) and watch their hard earned money go up in the air while their skilss do nof benefit of improve from it at all, or not in a par with the money spent. Frankly, spending countless hours and thousands of dollars putting ammo through a malfunctioning or a gun that cannot hit the target where you want it is wasteful in a big way. If your faith is put on this practice "kick", then spend some of that money into making sure that your practice will yield acceptable and possibly winning results by investing it into a gun that can do what you "tell" it to do, rather than a gun with a mind of its own. Spend your "freaking" money wisely. Try to have the best equipment that will yield quality practice. You will save a lot of money in the long run. And, while at it don't just burn powder, make every shot count during practice. It is much more rewarding to burn money when you can enjoy it than when it yields no results. Have a plan.